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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1086853 -

****Research aside though, common sense seems to point in the direction that being gay is not a choice, at the very least not a concious one. *****

common sense? is that your evidence? Common sense tells me that it is an excuse.

****When I was younger and more naive, ****

your like 20, you're still young and naive...don't kid yourself.

****I resented a lot of my peers for various reasons, one of them being rampant homophobia. ****

using key libbie words like homophobia shows lack of acceptance of others views. In the libbie realm homophobia means those that don't accept the homo lifestyle..please avoid these catch phrases to describe why others don't agree with your accepted lifestyle.

****I wished I was gay so that I'd have a good reason to throw it back in their faces. *****

oh please cry me a river, are you serious? If so then i find that hillarious.

****A lot of gay men have effeminate personalities, and I don't think that such a drastic personality change could be simply flipped on or off by choice.****

in a society that condones men acting like little pussies (political correctness)i'm not that surprised. People like to treat little girls and boys the same nowadays, no wonder this is the case.

****What evidence do you have to show that being gay is a choice?****

I don't. I'm relying on MY common sense (because there is absolutly NO evidence to the contrary)..all i'm asking is for one peice of evidence. I'm already to change my view if there is in fact a connection. However after hearing your little diatribe in your post i am more convinced it is a choice.

****I can understand that someone would want to believe that being gay was a choice, it makes their bigotry easier to justify****

more catch phrases (you're becomming too predictable) libbie speach: a bigot is someone who doesn't agree with a libbie point of view. I don't agree with the homo life, does that make me a biggot? (i guess i could say the same thing about those that don't like religious people)

****Also, you used the words "perversion" and "problem". What's wrong with it, really?****

put in the appropriate word then, you defend it as an uncontrolable trait..to me that is abnormal..am i wrong?

****There's lots of evidence to support the idea that being gay is already determined at birth, but none to suggest that a disgust with homosexuality is already there. *****

there you go again....you keep saying there is a lot of evidence..where?

****That is something that would have to be imposed by their parents values, insecurity with their own sexuality, or just plain bigotry. *****

moral of the story: It's someone elses fault...the libbie way.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1086959 -

Mr_Mushrooms writes:

I asked you before in a previous argument to give a website or some kind of authority in the biological sciences to back up your claim. I have just repeated the request. The fact is you cannot do it.

So sorry, but it is not my responsibility to dig up a website which refutes your opinion that a fertilized egg is a living human being; it is YOUR responsibility to provide sources which support YOU, since you are the one INTRODUCING a disputed "fact". That's standard procedure in a debate. If it is in fact "inarguable" and "incontrovertible" that a fertilized human egg is a "living human being", you should easily be able to provide for us links to credible sources which support your assertion.

In order for the debate to continue between us on this subject you will have to offer some kind of evidence that relies on scientific fact. From there we can proceed to discuss the morality of the issue.

I disagree that scientific evidence is required to continue the discussion, but if you believe it is necessary, it is your responsibility to provide it.

pinky



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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1087006 -

whenever the dea talks about drug users and crap and uses statistics to determine who drug users are. none of us like that bullshit
well gay people arent statistics. if none of you are gay, then you can never know what gay really is. you dont know what kinda impulses it is. you dont know if its just a trend, or an irrestible attraction. or whether people can go from gay to straight. You dont know, and either do I. And either do most scientists.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1087344 -

I don't agree with the homo life, does that make me a biggot?

Using words like homo sure does suggest it.

to me that is abnormal..am i wrong?

Yeah. Who decides what's abnormal? You?

It's someone elses fault...the libbie way.

Just let people live their own lives without assholes telling them what to do...the libbie way.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Compromise [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087358 -

****Using words like homo sure does suggest it. ***

what's short for homosexual?..homo?

****Yeah. Who decides what's abnormal? You? ****

Yeah. Who decides what's abnormal? You?

****Just let people live their own lives without assholes telling them what to do...the libbie way. ****

yeah right, does that include: christians, the NRA, Political correctness, sensativity classes, hate crime legislation, and the numerous other libbie sponsored hate tactics?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1087382 -

"your like 20, you're still young and naive...don't kid yourself."
"Younger, and more naive", Which blatantly implies that I'm still young and naive.

"using key libbie words like homophobia shows lack of acceptance of others views."

First off, the fact that something is liberal is not a valid argument against it. Turning someone's own words like "lack of acceptance" against them isn't a valid argument either.

"all i'm asking is for one peice of evidence"

What the fuck? I listed several; various studies showing genetic links, the fact that I, and every male I've asked has said that they wouldn't be able to switch to being gay (or to being straight, if they are gay), and that every gay man I've talked to has said it's not a choice. It's not proof, but it's obviously evidence. Where's your evidence?

Of course you didn't even bother to reply to those, just to nitpick at what I was saying. The fact that you've conveniently ignored significant parts of my just goes to show that you aren't thinking about this, just going on gut emotion feelings, and not working on logic.

"because there is absolutly NO evidence to the contrary"

How are the facts I've posted not evidence?

"in a society that condones men acting like little pussies (political correctness)i'm not that surprised. People like to treat little girls and boys the same nowadays, no wonder this is the case."

Back in the '60s, it was a big liberal view that men and women were the same at heart, and by raising them the same way, you could eliminate gender roles. Newer studies are now showing this to be false, gender roles are more biologically imposed than they are imprinted by the way kids are raised. Either way, why does it really matter if a boy acts girlish? What harm does it cause?

"you defend it as an uncontrolable trait..to me that is abnormal..am i wrong?"

Normal or abnormal, what's bad about it?

"moral of the story: It's someone elses fault...the libbie way. "

Um. What's someone else's fault? Homophobia is the homophobic's fault, pretty much, but it's evident that their parent's values have something to do with the values they take on. This has nothing to do with blame.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1087385 -

yeah right, does that include: christians, the NRA, Political correctness, sensativity classes, hate crime legislation, and the numerous other libbie sponsored hate tactics?

Well, the caveat is that you don't harm anyone else with your activity. Why do "homos" bother you anyway man? What does it matter?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phred]
    #1087435 -

I wonder what would be consider irrefutable evidence as to when the fetus turns into a human being. The only thing that would convince religious pro-lifers that an embryo is not a human being would be if they heard it from a 300 ft Jesus.
Personally I think it's OK with abortion. It is OK with me til the time the fetus is fit to survive outside the uterus with a minimum of medical assistance. This "minimum" does in my opinion not need to cover all future advancements in medical science, cause eventually it will be possible to save any child/fetus prematurely born, maybe even to grow them in tanks. The construction of these growth chambers are maybe the solution to the problem. Any aborted fetus and any fertilized egg (several of those are created during modern fertility treatments) can be hooked up and grown to the desired size, paid for- and later adopted by pro-lifers.

I also doubt that it will be possible to find a single explanation for homosexuality, be it choice or genetic predestination. "Homosexual" is as coarse definition of someones sexual identity as "heterosexual". Am I homosexual if I enjoy a dick up my arse, or do I have to love it's owner? For some religious "heterosexuals" the taboo of homosexuality could be what turns them on...
It would however be interesting to know what a pro-life born again Christians would do if their unborn child/fetus/pile of cells tested positive on the homo-screening, would abortion rates go up in Crackerville??

Z


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Re: Compromise [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087632 -

****Well, the caveat is that you don't harm anyone else with your activity. ****

noone is advocating violence in this dicussion ...unless hurting someones misplaced feelings is harmful.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1090740 -

No response to my post, Innvertigo?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1090912 -

i'm sorry phluck, you haven't been my first priority the last couple days.....

****First off, the fact that something is liberal is not a valid argument against it. ***

If we're talkinf common sense it is.

****What the fuck? I listed several; various studies showing genetic links, ****

newsflash!! There has never been a study that has positivly shown this to be true. If you look back on the other page you'll see that i have also listed studies showing the opposite...or did you miss that? Or are you talking about the suicide topic?

*****It's not proof, but it's obviously evidence. Where's your evidence?****

you're right it's not proof. anicdodle evidence at the very least with absolutly no scientific backing. I've been saying this over and over again that it is my belief (this is an opinion that could change if there is ever proof) that it is just a way to justify their choice...or perversion if you will....

as for evidence the burden of proof is on those that FEEL that it is genetic. I'm all for believing them if they ever do an actual scientific study.

**** Of course you didn't even bother to reply to those, just to nitpick at what I was saying.****

do you actually think i sit up at night trying to figure out how i can avoid responding to your posts? I could say the same for you but what would be the point? I find your "my gay friend said this" type of evidence fairly hillarious...i was hoping it was a joke...

****How are the facts I've posted not evidence?****

see above response about your gay friends..

****Either way, why does it really matter if a boy acts girlish? What harm does it cause?*****

well first he's a boy...second there is absolutly no harm in it phisically, being feminin that is.

****Normal or abnormal, what's bad about it? ****

that wasn't the point..my point was that you people like to treat it like a disease (they can't help it) while telling others it's totally normal.

****Um. What's someone else's fault? ****

anything that puts any libbie at a disadvantage basically

****Homophobia is the homophobic's fault, pretty much, but it's evident that their parent's values have something to do with the values they take on.****

I want you to define homophobia (remember the word phobia is in the name). Is homophobia one that does not accept the gay life style (meaning they either have moral objections or some other personal objection)?

****This has nothing to do with blame. ****

that's debateable

As an ironic side note, one of my favorite TV shows is "Will and Grace"....figure that out!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (11/27/02 11:45 AM)

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1091234 -

There have been scientific studies done, and there is good evidence that it is genetic, but no definate proof. Like I said.

I looked at your links, and they were people pointing out the flaws in the gay genetics idea. Sure, there are gaps in evidence, but the alternatives provided are that it's some other biological factor, or that it has something to do with upbringing. Neither of these leave the possibility of it being a choice, but the latter does give fundamentalists something to yell about.

"anicdodle evidence at the very least with absolutly no scientific backing."

The anecdotal evidence does have some scientific backing. There are scientific studies that suggest, not prove, suggest that being gay is genetic or otherwise biological. Then there are scientists who say that these studies are flawed.

I've never encountered one gay man saying that being gay is a choice, odds are that at least one of them would come out and admit it.

"Sorry guys, we're all just collectively too insecure to admit that we were choosing to be gay."
It seems statistically impossible, but who am I to say?

"that wasn't the point..my point was that you people like to treat it like a disease (they can't help it) while telling others it's totally normal."

"They can't help it" is not treating it like a disease. I don't think people can help it if they have green eyes, and I think you'll agree that doesn't count as treating something like a disease. If there was a "God Hates Green Eyed Freaks" group, I would be using the exact same logic against them.

Well, homophobia has come to mean bigotry against gay people. Sexualityism sounds kind of dumb.

For some people, it really seems like a phobia. Some people get extremely freaked out when they're around gay people, they flip out if a gay guy hits on them. The same people might have no problem politely brushing off an unattractive girl, but they feel the need to get really angry, sometimes even violent when the would-be suitor is gay. I'm not so sure if this is a phobia of gay people, or a phobia of being perceived as gay by their peers. Maybe they believe that if they don't frighten away the gay guy, and act as straight as possible, they might be brainwashed into actually being gay. I don't know for sure how their actions can be explained, but there's definately some irrational fear there.

"As an ironic side note, one of my favorite TV shows is "Will and Grace"....figure that out!! "

I see... do you watch 'Friends' as well?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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