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Re: Compromise [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1079682 -

****Did you know animals in nature can be Homosexual? ***

yeah some monkeys can be, however we're not animals.

*****this I found to be more than enough eviden that it too can occur in humans. *****

i'm not surprised this is all the evidence you need. Me? well i'll wait for real evidence.

****Although religions like to make humans different than any other mammals so you may be influenced by other beliefs on this. ****

religion has nothing to do with my beliefs on homosexuality.

I've had this debate over and over and if you feel up to it you can check it out:

Debate on homosexuality - A shroomery exclusive


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (11/23/02 03:19 PM)

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1080624 -

Ok, enough with the sidebar, let's get back to the original topic:

Re: Should we abort gay babies?

For if homosexuality is truly genetic then it is a perfect excuse to abort them in the minds of some people. Right?

[stirring the pot]

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1083762 -

it would be ok to abort gay babies because they will be criticized and have a horrible life  :smirk:**

** (before buddha5254 starts crying this post was meant to be sarcastic)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1083841 -

"yeah some monkeys can be, however we're not animals."

It's been documented in a whole lot more than monkies, rats, dogs, you name it.

What the hell do you mean we're not animals? We operate the same way as any animal.

"i'm not surprised this is all the evidence you need. Me? well i'll wait for real evidence."

Umm... you need more evidence that homosexuality can occur in humans? Do I need to post some gay porn in here? This has got to be the stupidest thing you've ever said.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1083842 -

In other threads you make reference to studies that show being gay is a choice. In fact, I've heard people bring up these "studies" in lots of different debates, but I've never actually had the privelage of viewing one. Would you care to provide a link?

I've been looking it up, and found some places that show flaws in the research that shows people are born gay, which, no doubt there are. I haven't found any research that shows the contrary, though.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (11/25/02 07:08 AM)

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1083846 -

It should also be added, that genetics does not necessarily play into it. People can still be "born gay" and not genetically predisposed to it, just that there is some other biological difference between then and heterosexuals.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1083925 -

****Umm... you need more evidence that homosexuality can occur in humans? ****

That's not what i said dipshit.

****This has got to be the stupidest thing you've ever said. ****

yet again you missed the point...must be your self-righteousness coming through


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1083929 -

****People can still be "born gay" and not genetically predisposed to it, just that there is some other biological difference between then and heterosexuals. ****

name them. You say so much and nothing comes out.

Saying that there is biological differences is not proof....but i'm sure you knew that...right?

he're's what i read when you post on this subject:

"people are born gay because it's genetic and that's fact, except when it's not genetic"...which one is it?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1084019 -

All other things being equal, when the percentage of gay men among the male population increases there is a corresponding decrease in the percentage of heterosexual men.  This means that the competition for the affections of heterosexual women decreases.  It doesn't matter if it is nature, nurture or a combination of the two, because it is a good thing if you are a heterosexual male. :cool: 


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Compromise [Re: Evolving]
    #1084046 -

****It doesn't matter if it is nature, nurture or a combination of the two, because it is a good thing if you are a heterosexual male. ****

Thank God i'm married, dodged a bullet. :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1084069 -

Just as there are studies that show a correlation between genetics and homosexuality there are studies that show that homosexuals do not enjoy a long healthy life. Their rates of suicide are higher and even without the AIDS factor they live significantly shorter lives than heterosexuals do. The same is true for lesbians. Some scientists think that this is also a genetic component to being gay.

If that is true and the argument for aborting a baby is that it will suffer a poor quality of life, i.e. the unwanted argument, then all those who think that, if they wish to remain consistent in their thinking, should have no problem aborting babies that are genetically inclined to be homosexual.

Cruel shoes to be sure.

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1084769 -

If you are born gay then that would signal a genetic predisposition.

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1084941 -

theres a story that goes like this:

there is a society of tadpoles living in this pond. whenever it rains in the human world, water splashes down on the pond, creating disturbances and whatnot. so the scientist tadpoles make some ridiculous claim to explain this rain.

we dont know the earth is round. we think so. how do you know we havent made a mistake in our observations? just because we see the earth from outer space doesnt mean anything. there are hundreds of varying factors that could throw science of. Just remember that at one point, people were dead sure that the earth was flat, because of scientific equations. Means we could be wrong too


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"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: Compromise [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1085014 -

****there is a society of tadpoles living in this pond. whenever it rains in the human world, water splashes down on the pond, creating disturbances and whatnot. so the scientist tadpoles make some ridiculous claim to explain this rain.****

huh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1085136 -

abortion is wrong Mr_Mushrooms. I would also have to say that the same people who support abortion are the ones who believe gayness is genetic. So it is just libbies against libbies, and we all know those arguments will never lead to anything. I guess you could call it a librawl hahaha.

I dont really belive that people are "born" gay. Friends that I know are gay come from broken homes and alot of times assaulted when they were young. I heard Howard Stern say somthing intresting a while back. He had a couple lezbians on his show the first question he asked them was who touched you when you were little. I know that sounds disturbing and also a little silly, but more than often its true.
now my point....
Why would people begin to suffer from somthing caused geneticaly just because they were sexualy assaulted or had another traumatic experiance when they were younger? There is no genetic disease like that where a person can catch it after they have already been born.

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1085180 -

There is a difference between a genetic difference, and a biological one.

Take fetal alcohol syndrome, the child is born different because of chemicals the mother ingested that affected its development, and it has nothing to do with genetics. Having a twin, nothing to do with genetics. Etc...


You're the one misinterpreting what I'm saying now.

"people are born gay because it's genetic and that's fact, except when it's not genetic"...which one is it?

Perhaps I should rephrase that; If people are born gay, which they aren't necessarily, that's not what I was trying to say, it's not necessarily due to genetics.

There isn't any way to know for sure if they're born gay or not. The evidence seems to be pointing in the direction that they are born gay. Believing with any certainty either way is stupid.

Mr Mushrooms, since when did having a shorter life span mean a lower quality of life? It's fairly evident that the shorter life span is related to a hedonistic lifestyle, and not to genetics. Could you refer me to a scientist who has made the claim that the shorter life span is genetic?

As for the suicide thing, it's pretty evident why gay people would lack self esteem in a society filled with people that shun them and treat them like degenerates.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1085217 -

****There isn't any way to know for sure if they're born gay or not. The evidence seems to be pointing in the direction that they are born gay. Believing with any certainty either way is stupid.****

exactly my point....however you say the evidence is directed towards being born gay which in my eyes (as well as others) is plain speculation. The whole genetic and/or biological excuse is just that, an excuse. They are just trying to justify their perversion. If you want to be gay (not you) then fine, be gay, but don't start blaming it on things beyond your control. My whole point of this discussion was to show that there really isn't a real answer to the "is it a choice or is it genetic". Yet again I've proven that we just don't know and have to rely on what the evidence (or lack there of) that is presented. This will have to be one of those discussion where we'll just have to wait and see. If I'm wrong and it's proven to me that it's genetic or a biological problem (same thing in my book) through a respectable independent source then i will concede.

****As for the suicide thing, it's pretty evident why gay people would lack self esteem in a society filled with people that shun them and treat them like degenerates. ****

I have no stats to back it up but i would almost guarantee that the rate of suicide amongst strait teens is higher than that of the gay population..if not they're pretty close (i'll see if i can find something on this)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1085880 -

"I have no stats to back it up but i would almost guarantee that the rate of suicide amongst strait teens is higher than that of the gay population.."

Definately not true. High suicide rates amongst gay teens are extremely well documented.

Research aside though, common sense seems to point in the direction that being gay is not a choice, at the very least not a concious one. For one thing, I can't possibly imagine switching my brain around to become attracted to men. It seems as though my attraction to the opposite sex is hardwired into my brain.

When I was younger and more naive, I felt like a loner. I resented a lot of my peers for various reasons, one of them being rampant homophobia. I wished I was gay so that I'd have a good reason to throw it back in their faces. Did I become gay? Nope, didn't happen.

Later, as a sexually frustrated teen, I noticed that it would have been easy as hell to get laid if I were gay. Again, I felt a certain amount of envy for my promiscuous gay peers, but my sexuality didn't magically change.

I've talked to a good deal of gay men, and a handful of lesbians. The lesbians seem to be less definate about their sexuality, like they could have easily gone either way, but the gay men have all told me the same thing; they realized that they were sexually attracted to men at one point, and definately not to women.

The following example is really only a single piece of anecdotal evidence, and not proof of anything, but a friend of mine who I've known since elementary school recently came out of the closet. He was the skinny little kid who never participated in any sports, and acted, basically, like a little girl. A lot of gay men have effeminate personalities, and I don't think that such a drastic personality change could be simply flipped on or off by choice.

What evidence do you have to show that being gay is a choice?

I can understand that someone would want to believe that being gay was a choice, it makes their bigotry easier to justify, but I haven't really seen any evidence to back it up. Maybe I haven't been provided with some key facts, but unless I'm mistaken there is nothing to back this up. There is no absolute proof that it ISN'T a choice either, but it seems a little odd to think that it's more probably that it is a choice.

Also, you used the words "perversion" and "problem". What's wrong with it, really?

There's lots of evidence to support the idea that being gay is already determined at birth, but none to suggest that a disgust with homosexuality is already there. That is something that would have to be imposed by their parents values, insecurity with their own sexuality, or just plain bigotry.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1085961 -

This site right here has a list of twelve (count 'em, 12 _different_ studies) studies that asked gay males how many had attempted suicide. The mean came out to 31% of ALL gay men trying suicide. Now, I don't have a similar list for heterosexuals, but I'm pretty damn sure it comes out to a whole lot less than a third of the population. I remember hearing somewhere else something about how 2% of heterosexuals attempt suicide, while about 10% of homosexuals attempt suicide. Hard to say what's accurate.

http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/notes2.htm

I'd list more information related to this, but a simple search will bring you to dozens of pages backing this up.

Here's the closest thing to an opposing viewpoint:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/aug/02082605.html

It claims that the suicide rates aren't higher because of anti-gay biases, but of course offers no alternative. They claim that these studies were done in cities where there is a lot of support for gay people, but anyone can tell you that even in the most liberal city on the planet, homophobia is still rampant. It's fairly evident, for instance, that a parent's viewpoint is going to have a stronger influence on someone's opinion of what is right and wrong than PFLAG is.

Oh, I found one more opposing viewpoint site.

http://www.gjne.com/hope%20robbins/Bob%20Larimer%20Testimony.htm

"WTV has learned that former Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) Dr. Louis Sullivan has repudiated and distanced his department from a paper entitled "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide" by Paul Gibson, which had been included as supporting documentation in the 1989 "Report of the Secretary?s Task Force on Youth Suicide." Gibson?s paper, which was never subjected to peer review, asserted that gay and lesbian youths may account for one third of all youth suicides, that homosexual youths are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, that suicide is the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian youth, and that gay youth suicide is caused by the internalization of "homophobia" and violence directed at gays.

It is this information, repudiated by the Secretary of HHS, that is offered as "government statistics" on suicide among homosexual youth. It should not be relied on."

He makes reference to only one study, which he claims was badly done. Fair enough, of course he ignores the fact that there are dozens more studies, and doesn't offer any information that shows otherwise.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1086067 -

It just amazes me that you find it possible to be attracted to males.The idea boggle(and many others)minds. So we understand that there must be something internally different about them.Someone brought up the point earler that those that think its a choice to be gay must have at some point in time rejected their attractions to males. :smirk:


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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