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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10902734 -

AlphaFalfa said:
At current rates of resource depletion and at current rates of social ignorance, we are bound to have massive deaths of people and massive disease suffering in the coming 20-50 years.



You mean, things will be more or less like they are now and like they have always been?
Who cares anyways? Nobody has the obligation to fight for continuous species survival. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by MushroomTrip (08/21/09 08:11 AM)

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10903042 -

AlphaFalfa said:
Thats it, thats that, its simple and straight forward.

At current rates of resource depletion and at current rates of social ignorance, we are bound to have massive deaths of people and massive disease suffering in the coming 20-50 years.

So buckle up or change the minds of those sumamambiches!

Facts:

Our system of food production is 100% reliant on OIL.

Hypothetical possibility

When Oil finally hits scarce levels and economies are is depression globally, they will exit the market and take our ability to grow food on our extremely degraded soils.

Welcome to my depression. Its Mine, so HANDS OFF!

:rockon:


I wouldn't worry about the fate of planet Earth. It's in good hands now.


--------------------
Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.
:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10903312 -

Not everyone will die a horrible death. Changing the way we do business is more about not living a horrible life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10903314 -

Qubit said:
Quote:
if everyone had to eat cornmeal, they would fight eachother


Why?  Thats what real life is without luxuries, thats how most people live and have lived.  You can actually make some pretty good stuff with cornmeal.  Once we get over our spoiled attitude life will go on.


which non-violent civilisation are you talking about?

Life always goes on... I don't agree with the 'all die a horrible death', but there is a certain level of peace and liberation that we get to experience in society and it runs hand in hand with our economic system, which is not necessarily adaptable to our trajectory into the future, currently


--------------------

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10903333 -

All the people who are non-violent. :wink:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10903364 -

Qubit said:
People have been crying doomsday for thousands of years.  Be it the wrath of god, nuclear holocaust or your modern version.  Every one has been wrong.  Your fear mongering is useless.


I notice that the OP didn't actually use the term "doomsday" anywhere in his post.

Instead he brought up the very real subject of resource depletion, something that a lot of scientists are very concerned about.

So if he didn't cry doomsday...but you did...then who's the one fear mongering? :foreheadslap:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: trendal]
    #10903540 -

WOW. What fireworks!

Qubit

The second step to proper communication is being as explicit as possible, to make room for varying communication styles and backrounds.

the first being defining your terms and making your premises easily apparent and to verify.

Our communication is not compatible.

:sad:

To the only girl on this forum, Mush, I must say equally the same thing to you. I did not imply obligation, I do not believe obligation is a potentially realistic conception because it is premised from; people do not do things out of their own evolving self interest.

I just said if you dont want to die horribly(watching people you love suffer around you, for example, while you await your own painful death) then I suggest you understand sustainability issues - especially our food systems reliance on - fossil fuels and fossil water(water that is being used to irrigate crops that is not renewable) and the age of cheesy thing of change the world. HAHA, I really think everyone on this forum, has the type of stuff that it takes to learn facts indiscriminately and I know that although the whole change the world this is cheesy, but being aware of your future is something I was looking to give.

Qubit - you are wrong about scarcity and loss of luxuries. IF and IF we hit scarce levels of oil, what makes you think that the people who own the oil, such as EXXON, will share, if they arent getting shit loads of power and profit from it?

Hear it out, I honestly think they will not logically participate and make more profits in WEAK global economies, when they can JUST wait for everything to get started up again after the FACT about mass die-offs, where the economies of the world have become stronger and they make more profits from due fact.

Why is it that companies downsize and exit the markets, when economies are weak? What makes you think the major oil owners and chemical companies responsible for the production of just about 95% of the food you eat, wont be doing the same?

I dont believe that they will stay in the market, on behalf of the following premise;

Companies profit in strong economies.

  :box:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


Edited by AlphaFalfa (08/21/09 10:18 AM)

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10903738 -

Quote:
people do not do things out of their own evolving self interest.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if I get you right, then I beg to differ.
People do only things that fit their self interest. If their judgment can be rationally analyzed and concluded that it was poor, this is something entirely different and it doesn't mean that, when making a decision, one doesn't consider first and foremost their self-interest.

Quote:
I just said if you dont want to die horribly(watching people you love suffer around you, for example, while you await your own painful death) then I suggest you understand sustainability issues - especially our food systems reliance on - fossil fuels and fossil water(water that is being used to irrigate crops that is not renewable) and the age of cheesy thing of change the world. HAHA, I really think everyone on this forum, has the type of stuff that it takes to learn facts indiscriminately and I know that although the whole change the world this is cheesy, but being aware of your future is something I was looking to give.


If I don't want to die horribly I will do whatever stands in my power not to. I don't have to tell other people how to live their lives and I most certainly can't properly appreciate how they will die, so the only reasonable thing to do IMO is to take care of myself and be around people that I love and that are of the same mind.

Quote:
you are wrong about scarcity and loss of luxuries. IF and IF we hit scarce levels of oil, what makes you think that the people who own the oil, such as EXXON, will share, if they arent getting shit loads of power and profit from it?


I don't even think he ever tried to imply that oil companies will share (i.e. for free). And why should they? Why should anyone give stuff for free, and what makes you think that this will "save the world", which brings me to the next question, what makes you think that the world needs saved? :lol:
It doesn't even make sense to assume that, for example, oil companies must share, since the situation will be the same especially when it comes to resources. Will sharing increase the natural reserves, or what?

Quote:
Hear it out, I honestly think they will not logically participate and make more profits in WEAK global economies, when they can JUST wait for everything to get started up again after the FACT about mass die-offs, where the economies of the world have become stronger and they make more profits from due fact.


Do you think you can explain more on this? Because I honestly can't see how one can take this prediction as being valid or at least reasonable, nor can I see where you're trying to get to.
If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that they won't participate in the economy when it will crash (how can you even participate in something that's not there anymore?!?), but that they will start making profits again when the economy will start functioning again. But what's the point of saying something like this?

Quote:
Why is it that companies downsize and exit the markets, when economies are weak?


Um... because there's no profit for them anymore? And because the purpose of a business is profit? :shrug:

Quote:
What makes you think the major oil owners and chemical companies responsible for the production of just about 95% of the food you eat, wont be doing the same?


What makes you think that this will be bad and will necessarily imply misery? Just because some people are so attached to this way of living and so helpless when it comes to self-sustainability? So what? Where's the tragedy? Who said that everybody has to survive?
If anything, a massive change of this sort will give new opportunities to people to organize themselves better, look for more efficient ways of living, and be more self-reliant.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: trendal]
    #10903749 -

He said we would all die a horrible death.  That sounds like a doomsday scenario to me - and its a scenario that is not supported by resoucre depletion or scientists.

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10903890 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
people do not do things out of their own evolving self interest.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if I get you right, then I beg to differ.
People do only things that fit their self interest. If their judgment can be rationally analyzed and concluded that it was poor, this is something entirely different and it doesn't mean that, when making a decision, one doesn't consider first and foremost their self-interest.

Re-read it, because that it what is said there. Obligation is a concept that relies on the premise that people do not always act on their self interest.

Quote:
I just said if you dont want to die horribly(watching people you love suffer around you, for example, while you await your own painful death) then I suggest you understand sustainability issues - especially our food systems reliance on - fossil fuels and fossil water(water that is being used to irrigate crops that is not renewable) and the age of cheesy thing of change the world. HAHA, I really think everyone on this forum, has the type of stuff that it takes to learn facts indiscriminately and I know that although the whole change the world this is cheesy, but being aware of your future is something I was looking to give.


If I don't want to die horribly I will do whatever stands in my power not to. I don't have to tell other people how to live their lives and I most certainly can't properly appreciate how they will die, so the only reasonable thing to do IMO is to take care of myself and be around people that I love and that are of the same mind.

I am interested in this type of debate because it is very important to my interests(food, shelter, security and all the goods that arise from it. People in this forum have the same interest and I woould feel bad, wouldnt be taking care of my intereests, if I did not mention it. The horrible death part, I admit, was edgy, but I realized that for reasonable minds, it would be a claim that they are neutral to and to the apathetic minds that think they have nothing to gain from this type of discussion, I aimed, locked on and blew it out of the water for them in that claim about horrible death. It was a communicative strategy that takes emotions into account. Nevertheless, it still reflects what a large portion of the population will experience in the years to come, due to the problems outlined.

Quote:
you are wrong about scarcity and loss of luxuries. IF and IF we hit scarce levels of oil, what makes you think that the people who own the oil, such as EXXON, will share, if they arent getting shit loads of power and profit from it?


I don't even think he ever tried to imply that oil companies will share (i.e. for free). And why should they? Why should anyone give stuff for free, and what makes you think that this will "save the world", which brings me to the next question, what makes you think that the world needs saved? :lol:
It doesn't even make sense to assume that, for example, oil companies must share, since the situation will be the same especially when it comes to resources. Will sharing increase the natural reserves, or what?

Share, was meant to represent that they will stay in the market, I forgot to fix that one up. :sad:

I never mentioned anyone should save the world, nor was I intending to. :rolleyes: Refer back to what I said in my last post about not mentioning ideas that are crucial to a discussion.

Quote:
Hear it out, I honestly think they will not logically participate and make more profits in WEAK global economies, when they can JUST wait for everything to get started up again after the FACT about mass die-offs, where the economies of the world have become stronger and they make more profits from due fact.


Do you think you can explain more on this? Because I honestly can't see how one can take this prediction as being valid or at least reasonable, nor can I see where you're trying to get to.
If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that they won't participate in the economy when it will crash (how can you even participate in something that's not there anymore?!?), but that they will start making profits again when the economy will start functioning again. But what's the point of saying something like this?

Communication is so weak. I never used the word CRASH. FUCK!!! I said WEAK Economies. We have a really incompatible communication style. :shrug:


Quote:
Why is it that companies downsize and exit the markets, when economies are weak?


Um... because there's no profit for them anymore? And because the purpose of a business is profit? :shrug:

Quote:
What makes you think the major oil owners and chemical companies responsible for the production of just about 95% of the food you eat, wont be doing the same?


What makes you think that this will be bad and will necessarily imply misery? Just because some people are so attached to this way of living and so helpless when it comes to self-sustainability? So what? Where's the tragedy? Who said that everybody has to survive?
If anything, a massive change of this sort will give new opportunities to people to organize themselves better, look for more efficient ways of living, and be more self-reliant.


I dont see a tradgedy, I see people potentially imagining that the system is going to take care of him/her, loved ones, with almost identical interests as me, being devastated in more ways that I can yet imagine in horrid cruel agony. Again, I am just looking out for my self interest to discuss this topic and possibly give one or two a more complete veiw point.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


Edited by AlphaFalfa (08/21/09 11:54 AM)

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10903912 -

"scenario that is not supported by resoucre depletion or scientists."

Who funds scientists? Do you think that the people on top who own the oil, chemical and agricultural companies, would like to fund research that would expose them as compromising the long term security of the people on this world?

I am an environmental studies bachelors honors graduate. Sustainability issues alone do not surmount to huge problems. But that is assuming economical and the onset of wide scale war, stay constant and under control.

It is all of these factors pressing onto each other that motivates me to change my future goals.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10903971 -

Quote:
Who funds scientists?


In the US?  The NSF and DOE predominantly.  I would think an environmental studies bachelors honors graduate would know that...

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10905207 -

Oh yea and they are completly unbiased to funding, right?

Where does that funding come from and I can put my life on the fact that these organizations are headed by people who are affiliated to the wealthy class, anyways. Regardless of whether the research is sensitive to funding pressure.

Get real dude, your in denial, but then again, your denial will reach to hide the fact that your in denial. Oh well.

:rockon:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10905243 -

Quote:
Oh yea and they are completly unbiased to funding, right?


Yep.  The funding comes with no strings attached except for producing publications.  Thats why researchers get tenure, so they can produce research without fear of any retaliation.

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10905272 -

You get real and substantiate your ridiculous claims. Wow, you'd think that after all this time people will learn how to provide evidence for their words when posting in this forum. :shrug2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10905555 -

Evidence

1. Fertilizer/Pesticides/Fumigants/Machinery are the basis through which 99% of our food is grown. These are derived from Oil.

2. Oil companies wish for nothing more than profits. They will exit markets, take their oil with them and leave the rest of us.

3. Oil Consumption is on the rise, population is on the rise, oil is a finite resource.

Dont believe me, fine, its for your own benefit to understand this.

Mush, adding inconsistent words to words that were not already there to begin with and not ensuring that the words you added are what the person intends on being communicated, reflects an incompatible communication style. Why dont you take your complain and live by it.

Do not enter my threads. If things stay like this, I loose little.

Since I there is little to argue in this thread, I must say I feel refreshed to hear that a larger majority of the people who came, understand this.

Hopefully you will all be around in the aftermath to play and venture into a new world.

:rockon:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10905637 -

Then I am afraid I'll have to disappoint you, because I will keep posting in whichever thread I want. You however, are free to ignore my posts even though it would naturally mean that you are unable to coherently address my points; blaming it on "different communication styles" won't do either, since I hope you realize I'm not falling for this kind of shit.
When I make a post, even more so a thread, I am more than willing to sustaining my points of view to anyone, regardless of their questions, because it helps me reshape my ideas, structure them better, and learn with a better accuracy if there are any flaws in my thinking. When someone refuses to be consistent in their explanations, I take it as a clear sign of resignation which usually results from a lack of complete and full reasoning on the matter (i.e. the claimant didn't really think the matter through :grin:).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10908558 -

Have you heard of Shai Agassi? He's going to change the world.


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Re: Change the World. Otherwise, we all die a horrible death. [Re: Cameron]
    #10908733 -

Cool idea.. sort of puts people into the hands of the government though... But I guess the right to drive around in deadly machines on roads built by the government is actually a privilege.


--------------------

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