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OfflineFreezingPenguin
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Fungi Perfecti Strange company
    #1056103 - 11/15/02 04:32 PM (14 years, 29 days ago)

they really are. they sell cultures of Agaricus Blazei for $125, yet you can order a entire fully colonized bag for only $25....what's up with that? i mean i'm not sure how this makes sense...

anyway, i ordered the colonized bag, and i'm going to take cultures, and bulk spawn the rest of it. It looks like its on colonized saw dust, but according to GGMM it also likes compost, so i'm going to use a basic straw and manure bulk tek for it.

I also E-mailed fungi perfecti, about their expensisve cultures, asking how they could justify charging $125, for shiitake, when the fruity bodies are readily avalable at market and very easy to clone, i also compaired their price to workmans $17 liquid cultures, they replied:

"Our cultures are guaranteed and have been carefully screened to assure you are receiving the highest quality pure culture strain. We have developed and tested these over many years. These are fully guaranteed.

By cloning a fruit bodies your working further away from the parent culture and over time you will see the strain become less productive. We include the number of time the culture has been expanded from it isolation ('P value"). I know of no other company we offers that information.

Do you know where sporeworks obtained their culture and how nay time it has been expanded. We offer free replacement should your culture die in transit or when your transferring it from it's parent tube.. Company policy

I hope that explains why our culture cost what they do. Look at ATCC (American Type Culture Collection) website. It is a good reference site."


working further away from the parent culture? could i just clone a shiitake, and use the spores from the next generation, wouldn't this prevent degeneration?


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Invisiblepsyconaut
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #1056621 - 11/15/02 08:14 PM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Quite simply, mushrooms have genes like most other living organisms. Cloning a store bought mushroom is like playing Russian roulette -- you could end up with a culture that's wonderful, or you could end up with something that's just plain crap because it's genetically "tired".

By buying a culture, you're investing in the skill of the mycologist in selecting solid genetic starting material...and knowing once that material has gone through mass multiplication, that it'll still be viable. This is where the cost is -- time equals money.

You'll even notice Stamets' has his "P"rating to signify how close his cultures are to the original strain.....

Also, you might sadly dissapointed if you seriously try and clone store bought mushrooms -- sometimes the strains are chosen that don't revert to vegatative growth very well, and sometimes there's been so much previous mycelial expansion, that they're genetically exhausted.

Hope that clarifies things a little bit.

-psy


--------------------
It may look like a button mushroom right now, but wait until you see how it grows!


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InvisibleZildjian
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: psyconaut]
    #1057672 - 11/16/02 07:11 AM (14 years, 28 days ago)

If you actually managed to clone a store bought mushroom and get it to fruit, couldn't you make print from one of the fruits and fix the 'tired' strain problem?


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Offliner05c03
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #1057754 - 11/16/02 08:56 AM (14 years, 28 days ago)

Yeah, you are paying for exellent strains and if you are going to making money off of them paying a little extra for these strains is trivial. However, it is also easy isolate and get spore prints from his fruit-it-at-home bags and it is likely that these strains are also 'good'. If you want a to expand your library I would spend 125 dollars on the bags.


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #1058094 - 11/16/02 02:39 PM (14 years, 28 days ago)

I have wondered this same thing myself. But I am guessing that the expensive cultures are intended for commercial growers that need some sort of guarantee that they are going to produce within specific parameters. And they have the ability to maintain the expensive culture long term without loss in vitality.

For the home hobbyist, cloning supermarket mushrooms or pre-colonized kits gives more than adequate material for growing your own mushrooms at home. Working from spores could conceivable even produce a strain superior to the original with careful selection.

I have had no problems cloning supermarket button and oyster mushrooms that produced, to my untrained eye, excellent crops. They may or may not be as good as the original, but the differences must be pretty small. I think the possibility of getting a significantly inferior strain is overstated by culture vendors. Although, to be fair, I probably wouldn't start a gourmet mushroom growing business using strains I cloned from the supermarket.


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Invisiblepsyconaut
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: Zildjian]
    #1058168 - 11/16/02 03:27 PM (14 years, 28 days ago)

That gets you a fresh gene pool to play with -- but also gives you the problems associated with a fresh gene pool too. In other words, you'll have to do strain selection again.

-psy


--------------------
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OfflineFreezingPenguin
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: psyconaut]
    #1061250 - 11/18/02 01:27 AM (14 years, 27 days ago)

I've given this some thought
so it breaks down like this

fungiperfecti works hard a finding, and developing good producing strains, so that commecial growers can buy them, and not worry.

however, there is no reason for a home cultivator to purchase these stains, because, he/she can simpy clone a store strain, and start from spores with the new fruits. yes it more work, but is it really work to the home mycologist? No its fun, that's why we do it, cause we like to do it. its fun!



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OfflineMycena
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #5051444 - 12/12/05 10:40 AM (11 years, 1 day ago)

Stamets P value theory is in direct conflict with the practices and theories of Asian cultivators of Enoki

I have serious doubts about it as a definite phenomenon away from artificial sitiation of maintaining cultures on agar.

On agar - yes- cultures may run out as there is no selection and the lines just peter out as they accumulate errors
BUT

if you always complete the lifecycle and clone only healthy fertile fruitbodies you maintain a strict selection pressure for health cell lines

Asian cultivators did this over and over and over again for decades and in the process created the enoki we we see today from the wild velvet shank

read Chang buswell and mills book 'Genetics and breeding of edible mushrooms' for the paper on this
and some other very strange things - interspecies hybridiation using protoplast fusion being the strangest


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Offlineshroomaker
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #5051915 - 12/12/05 01:26 PM (11 years, 1 day ago)

There is some interesting reading in the section in GMGM called "spore-mass inoculation." This techique seems like it has the potential of producing effective strains without a very lengthy trial and error process. In theory, it basically says that the healthier spores will actually consume the weaker ones and win out. Apparently, this was popular in China. I think it's worth a read. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to develop an inexpensive way to do this on a small scale.


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: FreezingPenguin]
    #5051962 - 12/12/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 1 day ago)

Perhaps you pay more for isolated cultures because you buy the legal right to sell mushrooms produced from that culture, and to use the culture to generate additional spawn - as is spelled out in the culture agreement *clicky* ?

Quote:

By purchasing these cultures, the customer agrees to the following terms. The purchaser is authorized by Fungi Perfecti to utilize our pure mushroom Spawn and Cultures for their own personal mycological experimentation, for the production of mushrooms for resale, and for the generation of additional mushroom spawn for the production of mushrooms for resale. The purchaser consents to use these strains for private use and not to generate spawn from them for resale or unauthorized distribution. Violators are subject to prosecution. The purchaser further agrees that mini-trials will be conducted prior to use in any commercial enterprise to assess their efficacy. The purchaser cannot and will not represent nor sell our strains in any form. Once shipped, Fungi Perfecti can not be responsible for the condition of any cultures. However, Fungi Perfecti will replace a culture if defective or should you lose it within one year of purchase at no additional charge.




I guess that if you take a culture from a mycobag, you're perhaps not entirely within the law, because they can claim ownership of particular isolates? I'm not making any kind of moral judgement about that, but perhaps the extra cost stems from the license you're purchasing?


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Invisiblemicololo2
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: OJK]
    #5052301 - 12/12/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 1 day ago)

They do work hard to develop highest quality strains. There you pay for the name, the reputation. Other's biologists develop super strains to and sale at a fraction of the Fungi Perfecti prices, but they are lessknown.
If you are in a big commercial production 125$ to have a super strain (in vitro culture)is a dust in your spendings and save time. So...
When I try to get a good productive culture by my own by spores I do this:
Spores (well kept,not to dry)direcly on agar. I do a few plates like that. Then I'll see different aspects of mycelias growing on the plates. After colonisation, I choose and clone on other plates smalls parts of tissues who have the best characteristics of the spiece. After another colonisation, I analyse them and choose only one or two and this is my new culture. I have usualy good results. It's probably not good as those reput specalists, but for my very little business it's allright. I think to, because I grow a big part of my mushrooms outside, taking spores from my mushrooms will give me cultures more adapt to the environment here.


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Invisiblebluecat
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: micololo2]
    #5053210 - 12/12/05 05:51 PM (11 years, 1 day ago)

fungi perfecti is a GREAT company. nothing strange at all. some super cultures.$125 is not outrageous. the culture agreement states that it is ok to use them to produce mushrooms for sale, and to generate additional spawn for growing mushrooms. the only thing not allowed is to use it to generate spawn to sell.these are intended mostly for commercial growers, who will be sure to get great production, and can be sure they wont peter out before a known amount of expansion. if you want to grow good shitake mushrooms, you can use fungi perfecti plug spawn to start with. it is cheap, and works well. plugs work well in jars of supplimented sawdust. the jars will work well to spawn blocks.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: Workman]
    #5175954 - 01/13/06 12:10 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
But I am guessing that the expensive cultures are intended for commercial growers that need some sort of guarantee that they are going to produce within specific parameters.



Thats what I would think, if a grower noticed that they got a 0.5% bigger yeild using the fungi perfect cultures then that 0.5% may be worth well over the price which may be insignificant to a large operation.

I had no problem paying ?100 for a pack of feminised cannabis seeds from a good breeder. No worries about males, and pretty certain it would be a good strain (and it was). I sold some seeds so it ended up costing me ?50 for my grow, got about 700g so it is well worth it IME, just like paying the few extra dollars is worth it for spores from a reputable vendor.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: blackout]
    #5177261 - 01/13/06 04:47 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I bought a bag of colonized oyster sawdust from them that was so tired from senesense it would barely fruit. I think I got four or five fruits for my $35. The test tube slants are fresher and have not been multiplied by grain to grain transfers half a dozen times followed by two sawdust expansions. I've actually had better luck taking prints from grocery store mushrooms then clones.

I'll bet ya a nickle those feminized seeds are going to throw lots of hermies, which in turn will put more feminized seeds in your buds.
RR


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5210012 - 01/22/06 01:53 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Some of the fem seeds were said to give hermies, I had none. I got the dutch passion ones which are said to be the best.


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: blackout]
    #5210160 - 01/22/06 02:35 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

anno has mentioned something interesting once concerning the spawnbags.

if you order a culture, on agar, u can be sure to have a generation 1,
but ordering spawn u got no idea how far from g1 you actually are.

i thought of throwing this in here.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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OfflineChromeCrow
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5212131 - 01/22/06 11:21 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I bought a bag of colonized oyster sawdust from them that was so tired from senesense it would barely fruit.




Same here it was sad..COMPLETE waste of money


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: ChromeCrow]
    #5226503 - 01/26/06 05:31 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I must admit - my FP Blazei kit put out 4 mushrooms total... :frown:


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Offlinelardnar
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Re: Fungi Perfecti Strange company [Re: blackout]
    #5226943 - 01/26/06 07:07 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Some of the fem seeds were said to give hermies, I had none. I got the dutch passion ones which are said to be the best.




They have a predisposition toward producing hermaphrodites, triggered by certain stress factors including but not limited to a disrupted light cycle, such as accidentally giving them light during the off cycle (opening cabinet, door etc) or improperly insulating the grow room from outside light


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