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cottonseed meal
    #10272487 -

I read in the Mushroom cultivator about supplementing with cottonseed meal. He said with oysters using it increased yield 85%. It said to use it after the myc had 100% colonized the substrate, but didn't really elaborate . How would i go about adding it? Just sprinkle it over the top? Dig some holes or trenches and add it then recover? Anyone have any experience with cottonseed meal??

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10273007 -

I would guess that you would crumble up the colonized substrate and mix in the meal. Not sure though. Seems like a very interesting idea though

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10283198 -

Well since no one has experience with this , i went and got a bag to try out. I'm going to just dig some trenches in some colonized wheat straw and add it in , then cover over.

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10283233 -

that would be great! 85% is a massive increase but using it only after 100% colonization does not make any sense at all.

Because as you point out how are you supposed to get it into the substrate.


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One of these days all the answers will be revealed until then we learn from each other!

www.mushrush.co.za

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: solumvita]
    #10283327 -

Maybe put then back to back.

Some with added after 100% and another set to go with the conventional addition to the rest of your substrate.


--------------------
Master Slants Made Simple

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #10361049 -

I picked up a 21 lb bag today for $16. Going to sterilize some in the pressure cooker and add it to the straw. Also going to mix some with a blue oyster grow in a fish tub i have going now . I also looked for cottonseed hulls, but they only had buckwheat hulls.. Anyone ever used buckwheat hulls as a substrate? They were kinda expensive, $21 for 3 cu/ft

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10364080 -

That's pretty steep!  If you're looking for hulls, the best places to check are mills.  I'm getting 50lb sacks of cottonseed hulls for $5 from a cottonseed oil plant nearby.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Paresthesia]
    #10364142 -

Im in the NE , no cotton fields around here

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10368744 -

I sterilized 5 pints today. They came out pretty clumped up , maybe too much water. I added 4 of them to 3 poly tubes of straw and saved the other to add to my already colonized blue oyster fish tub after it finishes this flush.

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10368842 -

You should give a test run of just meal mixed into your straw when your pasteurizing it. From what I recall from some reading...its all you need to do is pasteurize it. Outside of grains & bran you don't need to sterilize anything else going in.


--------------------
Master Slants Made Simple

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #10369099 -

Hi,

This is all descried at the Penn State mushroom site.  Adding any meal high in protein and nitrogen is the ticket.  Cottonseed meal or soybean meal is ideal.  It's called "Supplementation at Casing" (SaC); please read this PDF for all the info you need:

"Spawning to Casing in Commercial Mushroom Production"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/SpawningToCasing.shtml

To use SaC you break apart the colonized substrate, mix in 10% meal to dry substrate weight prior to casing.  Press the substrate back together and case normally.  Then fruit.  It has been found to increase yield by 100%, not only 85%. :smile:  The benefit comes from the additional nitrogen and protein.

The other method is "SaS" (Supplementation at Spawning), but this increases spawn run temp and also chance of contamination; better to use SaC.

I use SaC with P.cubensis and it does drastically increase yield.  I do not case my bulk so I mix in meal, cover with tin foil and let it sit for 3-7 days, until the mycelum has 'bonded' and the substrate is one mass again.  This give the mycelium time to utilize some of the meal before fruiting...

Something else you might be interested in is called "CI" (Casing Inoculum).  Mixing bits of spawn into bottom of casing can shorten the crop cycle by up to one week (Spear 1998).  CI is described in that PDF link I gave you.

Have fun

Edited by Livingston (05/20/09 11:14 AM)

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Livingston]
    #10369240 -

Thanks!!!

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Grzyby]
    #10369681 -

Oh wow...that is so cool! I've read portions of that method when looking into supplements like Spawnmate and the like...but never a breakdown. Very cool.

Thanks for that as well.

On a second note, have you ever done delayed release supplement plus SaC? Delayed release such as flaxseeds that have been PC'd to stop germination but allow for their oils to aid in longer term flushes on top of SaC. I'm on the thought that maybe your first flush would soak up a great deal of the nutrients of the SaC nutrientmeal added where the delayed release wouldn't be overkill for your further flushes. But it could be overkill overall, I'm not sure.


--------------------
Master Slants Made Simple

Edited by Mephistophelian (05/20/09 01:09 PM)

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #10369978 -

Mephistophelian said:
On a second note, have you ever done delayed release supplement plus SaC?


Delayed release items like spawnmate are made by using formaldehyde, I stay away from chemicals like that in things I eat.


Quote:
Delayed release such as flaxseeds that have been PC'd to stop germination but allow for their oils to aid in longer term flushes on top of SaC.


It's best to use oil, not seeds.  The benefit of flaxseed is the lipids.  The harm of flaxseed is the increase in spawn run temp and increased chance of contamination.  That PDF I linked to goes over all of this.  One can use many different types of oil for this purpose and still see the increase in yield and colonization speed.  Some good oils are crude cottonseed oil, flaxseed oil, rapeseed oil, coconut oil.  Use 10ml per pound of field capacity bulk substrate before pasteurizing.


Quote:
I'm on the thought that maybe your first flush would soak up a great deal of the nutrients of the SaC nutrientmeal added where the delayed release wouldn't be overkill for your further flushes. But it could be overkill overall, I'm not sure.


Delayed release doesn't delay over all flushes, mostly it delays until the substrate is colonized to help prevent contamination and lower spawn run temp.  The mycelium will utilize the spawnmate (for example) when it comes in contact with it.

Use 10ml per moist pound of bulk substrate, then pasteurize and spawn.  Then use SaC.  In as much as I understand the issue, this is how the 'pros' do it in the industry to keep costs low; spawnmate is expensive.  This is at least the way the Penn State Mushroom Science and Technology school suggests.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Livingston]
    #10370011 -

Livingston said:
Mephistophelian said:
On a second note, have you ever done delayed release supplement plus SaC?


Delayed release items like spawnmate are made by using formaldehyde, I stay away from chemicals like that in things I eat.


Well that's good to know. I didn't know that.

Quote:
Delayed release such as flaxseeds that have been PC'd to stop germination but allow for their oils to aid in longer term flushes on top of SaC.


Quote:
It's best to use oil, not seeds.  The benefit of flaxseed is the lipids.  The harm of flaxseed is the increase in spawn run temp and increased chance of contamination.  That PDF I linked to goes over all of this.  One can use many different types of oil for this purpose and still see the increase in yield and colonization speed.  Some good oils are crude cottonseed oil, flaxseed oil, rapeseed oil, coconut oil.  Use 10ml per pound of field capacity bulk substrate before pasteurizing.


I was reading into use of oils but didn't find anything conclusive but your point makes sense in that respect. Especially in making the most of the oils in the seeds without increase your spawn temperatures (yes I understood why you don't want to add too many seeds just as mentioned in the PDF) but I wanted to clarify even if using small amounts of seeds.

Quote:
Delayed release doesn't delay over all flushes, mostly it delays until the substrate is colonized to help prevent contamination and lower spawn run temp.  The mycelium will utilize the spawnmate (for example) when it comes in contact with it.

Use 10ml per moist pound of bulk substrate, then pasteurize and spawn.  Then use SaC.  In as much as I understand the issue, this is how the 'pros' do it in the industry to keep costs low; spawnmate is expensive.  This is at least the way the Penn State Mushroom Science and Technology school suggests.


Thanks for that.


--------------------
Master Slants Made Simple

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Livingston]
    #10370100 -

Hi,

In reponse to your PM I thought I would post here so others can learn/respond:

Do not do anything to the meal, just add it.  I have not used the "supercake formula".  I have debunked it though.  Not based too much on science.

I will debunk it here for you:

1 teaspoon of nutritional yeast,
1 tablespoon bee pollen,
1 tablespoon flax seed,
1 tablespoon shredded coconut meat/flour,
1 tablespoon blue corn meal,
1 tablespoon coarse yellow corn meal,
1 tablespoon of powdered/ground kelp meal,
1 tablespoon of cottonseed meal


  1. nutritional yeast =
    Is supposed to be "yeast extract", the two are not the same.  Yeast extract is for nitrogen and mainly for agar only.


  2. bee pollen =
    Is for brassinosteriods but is not based upon science.  Use brassinolide, the real chemical.


  3. flax seed =
    Is for lipids.  Just use 10ml oil per pound of moist sub. 


  4. shredded coconut meat/flour =
    Many people use coir but it's stupid in my opinion.  It is low on nutrients and has nearly as high % of ligin as peat moss (coir = ~60-70% ligin).  Peat's high ligin count is why it is not used in mycology bulk substrates in general.  People started using coir becuase it is easy to find and work with, and it's cheap; but it seems no one thought about the science first.  I use a custom mix with a base of corn cob, see the TMC and GGMM books for info.  Corn cob is an amazing substrate.  Also, the C:N ratio of coir is like 70:1-150:1; way too high.  For example, the C:N of horse manure is ~30:1, thus, I designed my custom mix to have ~30 C:N ratio.


  5. blue corn meal =
    Use SaC instead, and don't use corn meal.  Use cottonseed meal or soybean meal.


  6. coarse yellow corn meal =
    see #5 above


  7. powdered/ground kelp meal =
    Almost devoid of it's natural PGRs (Plant Growth Regulators).  PGR, nitrogen and potash as what is good from kelp.  However, most mycelium does not like is cytokinin; though P.cubensis does not seem to mind.  And all kelp has cytokinin in high amounts.  So I use "Kelpak"; it's the cellular fluid from the 'best' kind of kelp: S.African "maxima" (sp?).  Very little cytokinin and highest PGR count.  Though I have used "Neptunes Harvest" liquid kelp with good results, it has N and K, very little P which is ideal for cubensis at least.


  8. cottonseed meal =
    See #5 and #6


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 01:10 PM)

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #10370110 -

Mephistophelian said:
I was reading into use of oils but didn't find anything conclusive but your point makes sense in that respect. Especially in making the most of the oils in the seeds without increase your spawn temperatures (yes I understood why you don't want to add too many seeds just as mentioned in the PDF) but I wanted to clarify even if using small amounts of seeds.


There are many studies showing the benefits.  There are many threads here, in mush cult, with those studies.  Agar and Anno wrote much about those studies.

Good luck, have fun :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Livingston]
    #10372901 -

2 questions...

How much brassinolide do you use per lb/quart of sub? When you say you mix the SaC dry, am I reading right that you do this unpasteurized? It sounds really odd...so its why I ask.

The brassinolide seems expensive if you have to use large amounts. I get bee pollen for $15 a pound...where the pure brassinolide is $15 per 25 grams here

Edited by Mephistophelian (05/20/09 10:41 PM)

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #10373120 -

Hi again,

Mephistophelian said:
2 questions...

How much brassinolide do you use per lb/quart of sub?


0.04 gram per gallon of water when moistening sub.  Do not let brassionlide sit in water more than 24-28 hours or it is not bioavailable anymore.


Quote:
When you say you mix the SaC dry, am I reading right that you do this unpasteurized? It sounds really odd...so its why I ask.


Yup.  You do not have to pasteurize because you are adding it to a fully colonized substrate.  The mycelium will use the meal faster than contamination could.  Another reason is you do not moisten the meal, add it dry.  Contamination has a hard time with dry meal but mycelium does not.

If you were to SaS with meal then yes, meal would be a major contamination vector.


Quote:
The brassinolide seems expensive if you have to use large amounts. I get bee pollen for $15 a pound...where the pure brassinolide is $15 per 25 grams here


That ebay price is good, thanks for the link.

You only use a few milligrams per gallon, I've had 5 grams for about 4 months so far and still have a good amount left.  For a gram you can pay $1.  This is the site I use for any PGR I need, a great guy owns/runs the site.  Fast service and he runs a Yahoo! group for specific usage questions.  Though don't bother asking about mycology, they don't know anything. 

I get the 0.1% brassionlide here: http://super-grow.biz/Brassinolide01.jsp


GL! :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/20/09 11:24 PM)

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Re: cottonseed meal [Re: Livingston]
    #10381201 -

don't add too much cottonseed meal. its really hot. it will increase your sub bed temp rather drastically. if you put just a small amount in your supercake mix like 1 tablespoon you should be fine per around 4 tubs volume of substrate.

i use hippie3's supercake formula. it has cottonseed meal in it. you make equal parts being abou 1 tablespoon of each. and one teaspoon of nutritional yeast. proabably about 10 other ingredients in there.

i get a big bowl, mix all ingredients. put it in a ziplock in the freezer. and then spoon 1/2 cup of this mix per 2 tubs volume of substrate.

i also like adding a bit of coffee grounds to. so id say about 1 tablespoon of coffee grounds added to that recipe.


anyway, im not knocking anyones advice in this thread because ive not read it. but i use this regularly in every sub and it works wonders. it increased my yield 3 times.

and if you look at my gallery. i have giant mushies!

hehe

if anyone is having problems with this additive. your adding far too much. you only need something like 2 to 3 percent per substrate volume like spawnmate. its just like spawnmate. maybe not the same ingredients. but it increases heat for your substrate during spawn run and works very well to bulk up your subs.

and it works in your plant potting soil mix too. hip says it fills in all the blanks for plants. all the empty holes. i guess it worked so well in his garden that he decided to try it in his pf jars.

then others started experimenting with it in bulk subs and it seems to work wonders.

ive been putting it in every sub since.

bee pollen also has be vitamins and enzymes in it. its nature perfect food. i eat it on a regular daily basis as well. and a spoonful of honey and cinnamon.

i double up my ratio of kelp meal and bee pollen. it never hurts to add bee pollen to your sub.

and coconut shavings give the sub a nice coconut smell to it lol. even tho its poo....

you can add this prior to pasteurization depending on your method. i use turkey tins in the oven for pasteurization. so i mix all the subs up with the moisture content prior to pasteurization. i also add the supercake formula and mix it in evenly.

you can also add it at spawning time. dry.


--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


:flame::chief:JOIN THE POW WOW:chief::flame:

Edited by eatyualive (05/22/09 09:54 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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