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 Livingston Space Ranger   Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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Hi,
Why post when you have no idea is your post is warrented? You may want to read my debunking of the 'super' cake mix, I would not use it. You may like to read my info on SaC and SaS I posted in this thread. Heres my debunking post of the super-cake mix: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
I would suggest against that, unless you know the the media has a full Soilfood Web. Meals promote fungi and are too hot when used in quantity in media. -------------------- Peace and Pasta 
Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 01:46 PM)
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 eatyualive Eat's You Alive :)   Registered: 08/17/01 Posts: 19,026 Loc: In Your Head 
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here we go again. you act like i read your bs. my post was warranted(missed the a) honestly i posted this as personal opinion. you can get upset about it if you want but it had nothing to do with personally attacking you. i did not read anything you typed. just for this very reason. i don't have the time for this bs. i simply posted in this thread because it does work well and a friend pointed me to the thread. get upset if you want. its just my opinion. nothing more. fact is, it works. im not arguing with you that you seem to know about every individual ingredient. seems like you do. you have posted some good info. on the other hand, the supercake formula works great. want me to post a 20" mushroom to show you? there is a reason i don't vere off much from the photo gallery. always an attitude. one thing real annoying in this world. one who says he can walk the walk but doesnt walk the walk just talks the talk. take for instance. someone whos never tried the mix. how can you really say it works if you have not tried it? thats like saying you love the way bmw's drive without ever driving one. lets see some results. results speak. words do not. here you go...every picture below done with supercake formula in the mix.                 need more proof? hundreds more where that came from. just sounds like someone tried the supercake mix out and just didn't succeed. Edited by eatyualive (05/22/09 03:12 PM)
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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Hey,
I am not acting like a child and I don't care if you read what I posted. I posted the link as a friendly gesture to help you, not to measure *icks. The reason I responded is not in the interest of my post, but because it annoys me when people post in *any* thread without reading it first. It's rude and assuming. It's not your fault, I'm sure that was not your intent. Not reading a thread before one posts can confuse matters. For example, I posted why one should avoid the super mix. Then you post one should use it. It's fine you did that but telling us why we should use is preferable. Just saying "use this" without the 'whys' isn't too much help in my opinion. I'm glad it works for you, I was only offering you some info you did not seem to have. Sorry to upset you so much...maybe your having a bad day? But, you should read my posts in this thread, they are not BS. They would help you and give you some info you do not seem to have. That's not an assault on you, no one in this thread had the info until I posted it. But really, ego aside, you should read this thread, especially the info on why one should use meal and why it works.
Nice grow. But you can not say it is due to the super cake mix, I have seen fruits that size form coir alone (and coir is one of the worst subs out of those generally used: h.poo, corn cob, compost, etc). It is your opinion it is due to the super cake. Are those isolates? What strain? Looks yummy! I hope you have a nice day. P.S. Nice pics 
-------------------- Peace and Pasta
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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Science my friend, science...something occasionally lacking here and elsewhere.
If I was a mechanic or engineer I would not have to drive it to know it's great; that is if I took the time to read the schematics and look under the hood before I drove it  No hard feelings I hope. -------------------- Peace and Pasta
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eatyualive Eat's You Alive :) Registered: 08/17/01 Posts: 19,026 Loc: In Your Head
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not having a bad day at all actually. just not really inviting with all the attitude is all. its easy to read a book and say you can do something. but actually doing it is a different story. useless circular arguments found all over the place. here we have another one. ive done many side by side comparisons not using supercake mix. and using supercake mix. so i can say it was due to the supercake mix that the mushrooms fruited much denser and larger than they did in other substrates without it. the yield was 3 fold compared to subs without it. one example is a tub i used to get 4 total yield per flush. now is 12 total yield per flush. thats a big difference. no hard feelings. just debating. you just came off as if i were trying to insult you. being ive used the supercake mix before. i know how it works. by experience. not by looking at it. and no one buys a car without test driving it first. Edited by eatyualive (05/22/09 03:31 PM)
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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Hey,
My only point is one should not claim something as fact unless it's been proven so through scientific method research. And as we all know, science isn't always right but it's preferable to opinion. Facts and data are needed more than opinion. This is a problem I have with many forums: opinion, even first hand, is not the same as carrying out scientific trials with standards. You can not make the statement the super cake mix was the reason in a form of an absolute. Did you use the scientific method when you did your tests? How many trials did you run? How did you quantify *everything* in the sub and environment? Etc, etc. But my overall point is that the super cake mix is not ideal. I never said it wouldn't work, I said I suggest not using it and using the method I layed out instead. The same goes for coir, even though it's not a good sub choice it still works...but it's not ideal.
Unless they knew enough about the science and mechanics to make a pre-judgment, then they would never waste their time test driving it. Do you need to get blown up in a Ford Pinto to know it's not a car for you? Thanks
-------------------- Peace and Pasta
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FooMan   Registered: 02/02/05 Posts: 8,957 Loc: Earth 
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What exactly did you debunk? To debunk something, you have to prove it doesn't work. You merely gave a few alternatives and corrections stating what people "should" use. Also, shredded coconut (the white meat inside the coconut) and coco coir (shredded coconut husks) are 2 completely different things. Not sure why you mentioned coir being part of the formula. Whole flax seed is one of the grains mentioned in the Spawnmate patent as having the ability to provide delayed nutritional release and definitely increases yield IME, so why use the oil instead? Eatyualive and many other people (myself included) have noticed increases in yield when using the supercake mix. I couldn't tell you the science behind it or if all of the ingredients are even neccessary, but the bottom line is that it works. If you really want to debunk it show me some real proof. Theories and technobabble are lame.
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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I think it's safe to say that both Stamets and the Penn State Mushroom Science and Technology department have much more first hand experience than you and I put to together. They both offer real data on the hows and whys. I have used the methods I suggest and they have worked great for me, just as the supercake mix has worked well for you. The only difference is I use a mix based upon science and repetitive, long term studies. Please read this short post of mine on page one of this thread. It goes over the whys and hows of using SaC (Supplement at Casing), brassionolide (what bee pollen attempts to add), etc. I also post the link to an amazing paper by Penn State detlaing all aspects of what we are discussing. I think you would enjoy reading it, I know I did. Here ya go: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ -------------------- Peace and Pasta
Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 04:31 PM)
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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That the super cake mix is 'super'. It can work but it's not ideal, and definitely not super. If you read that post in the context of this thread, and the info I posted about SaC and CaC from Penn State, I think the debunk part of meals becomes clear. As to debunking bee pollen, do I even need to spend time explaining that? To me it's better to use the real chemical at specific quantities taken from tests using the scientific method then hoping someones theory will work (ie. bee pollen).
Done and done. See above. And it's not that it doesn't work per say, debunking can also be proving an explanation is wrong, among other ways to debunk something.
Yes and no. Corn meal does not do what is expected when 'meals' are added. The idea of meal is to add nitrogen and protein. That is why cottonseed and soybean meal is suggested. That debunks corn meal but I assumed it was obvious. Sorry. I said why coir is not good, too high ligin and C:N. I said why kelp meal should not be used: Very little PGRs, micros, etc. Heat destroys so much of the good qualities of kelp.
Because most people think coir when some says "shredded coconut meat/flour"; I grew up on islands. I know about the ice cream (aka meat), but the flour is often referred to as coir. With your explanation I see he is not referring to coir husk, my mistake.
The use of flax seed is for the lipids, not nutrients. I thought this was well known. From memory Spawmate is simply flax seed and some meal encased in oil and then formaldehyde, nothing special. That PDF I gave you to Penn State goes over all this stuff in detail. The problem to me is two fold: (1) Formaldehyde and (2) the mycelium has to work harder to get the oil from the seed, hence slower bio-availability of the oil. Oh, that and Spawnmate is expensive! Just add oil at the suggested rate and you have a better version of Spawnmate when using SaC. For nutrients add more spawn, or amendments like vermicast, chicken manure, etc.
I have not said it does not. Just that it is far from ideal. Why argue with me? I am the messenger of Stamets, Penn State, etc. I am not coming up with this stuff out of thin air...
As I have said many times, read the Penn State PDF I posted, and other info on that site. The science is not theory. It is proven via scientific method...far from theory. I do not want to waste time on the super cake mix so I won't do side by side. If you believe Penn State, Stamets and me over Hippy3 then that's great. I am only offering a side which has science to back it up. That and decades of on-farm commercial mushroom production, I am stating what they do... P.S. Weren't you the one posting in much cult 'new substrate' thread that people here should be more accepting of new info/ideas?... -------------------- Peace and Pasta
Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 04:35 PM)
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Mephistophelian Quasi Hob-Nobbery   Registered: 08/14/08 Posts: 2,527 Loc: Camp Crystal Lak Last seen: 10 months, 26 days |
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I'm pretty sure that the form of Debunking that he is referring to, is the age old debunking of showing side-by-side results of why this one works and this one doesn't. Something like putting in Supercharger A and Supercharger B and saying that B is better then A because of the schematics...but never running a Dyno on the car to actually put the proof in the pudding.
New ideas and specifics are fantastic, but if there was a say...a couple blocks of Shiitake/Maitake/Enoki/Etc or a couple tubs of cubes with Super Cake in its originality, then a second set of the same species and makeup but with the exchange of what your proposing with pictures, weights, documentation and all that scientific good stuff...that would be the full blown 'debunking' that indeed, making very specific adjustments to the ingredients and omitting the 'useless' ones actually makes that much of a difference. So far, pictures show that the layed out SuperCake recipe does indeed do a hell of alot in either SaS or SaC capacities in either form work very well. But it should be laid out in a comparison to verify with quantifiable & visual results that anyone can recreate with confidence they're not wasting their time, they can simply omit certain pieces of the SuperCake and integrate a newer modified version of a very very good platform, such as you propose with liquid flax or a combination of flax oil and flax meal (to reduce digestion issues), omitting certain ingredients & isolating that specific chemical within the bee pollen to say for sure, yes this new recipe is better then aforementioned recipe.
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eatyualive Eat's You Alive :) Registered: 08/17/01 Posts: 19,026 Loc: In Your Head
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your right. i don't claim anything i have not tested for at least a year. and i don't claim anything ive never tested something as you have here. ive documented most of it on various mushroom forums across the omc. including the photo gallery here. im not going to waste my time going through every thread and give you concrete evidence. its all there if you choose to look. i never claimed supercake was better than anything else. i merely claimed it increased my yield and spawn run times. that is as simple as it gets. it makes my fruits more dense in the stems and even though some flushes don't look heavy, they are very dense and end up surprising me everytime. with some strains. the fruits hit the lids then bend over. and those same strains without supercake formula won't even get that tall. im not debating you on what stamets said or what this or that book said. or what studies said what. honestly. its simple. these are cubensis. we can argue about this all day long. but supercake formula does work. i can't say it works in other mushroom species. but it sure works in psilocybe cubensis. you know how many arguments are on these forums like this? endless.... just about all the threads ive posted in photo gallery for the last year have had supercake in it. unless ive not stated it in the thread. consistently the supercake tubs provide more yield on a flush per flush basis compared to those tubs that do not have supercake in it. but why did you assume that i have not tested the supercake mix? i never said that i had not tested it. i been testing it for about the last year onwards of about 8 to 10 spawn runs weekly. so that is consistent results with consistent yield. i wouldn't put sc formula in the subs if it did nothing. that stuff is expensive. and ive tried spawnmate in the past as well. i see similar results as when i tested spawnmate in the past. tested it for several years. always had friends sending it for free. although i feel the spawnmate would get hotter during spawn run compared to sc formula. often creating much more condensation. but ive not claimed that sc or any of the additives bulked my yield up higher than the spawnmate did. i never did that comparison. i don't post in a thread unless i feel i have experience with it. if i don't or have not tested something, then i won't post in the thread. like you have done here. how can i advise anyone about anything if i have never tried it myself? because i read it in a book? i read the drivers ed manual does that mean i can drive? in the example of supercake formula, i have tested it. have you? supercake may not be ideal for you. but it works well. there isn't any doubt about that. whether it works better than other substrate additives. i don't know, nor have i made that claim. maybe you do know. so you do your mix. and i will do my mix.
on what fooman said. if you can't find all the ingredients its ok. just leave it out. i often can't find cottonseed meal or even kelp meal. sometimes they have blue corn meal, sometimes they don't. you have to order the kelp meal and cottonseed meal. but now most grocery stores are starting to carry bee pollen. but most likely to get those ingredients you will have to go to a health food store. other than that. ive said all i need to say here. Edited by eatyualive (05/22/09 04:58 PM)
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FooMan Registered: 02/02/05 Posts: 8,957 Loc: Earth
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Yep, that was me and this is the exact stuff I was talking about. You're knocking something without having tried it yourself. You can pull all the penn state and stamets links you'd like out of your ass, but it doesn't change the fact that it works. OK, maybe you debunked the "super" part of the title  You're obviously a troll looking to stir the pot with your matter-of-fact attitude and superiority complex (eg "Why argue with me?"). I refuse to feed the trolls. 
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eatyualive Eat's You Alive :) Registered: 08/17/01 Posts: 19,026 Loc: In Your Head
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i read that exact same thread. and felt the same way. i was surpised livy said that. a name is a name. given by whomever tried it out i guess. is the super part relevant? it was initially used in brf cake formula. thats why it was called supercake. because it made the cakes fruit better than normal brf. no one ever claimed it made anything other than brf cakes explode more than normal with cubensis. i claimed it bulks my yield and increases spawn run time. thats it. i don't care if its called mama's cake formula it still works. yeah im done. Edited by eatyualive (05/22/09 08:03 PM)
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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I don't have to try it man, how many times should I say that? The corn meal is not what is should be, etc. And you want to rely on Hippy3's theory of bee pollen? More power to you.
Ummm, no. I was posting in this thread before you guys, so it's not like I came here for you. I have no superiority complex except maybe that I trust science more than you, I need data, not opinion. I have a matter-of-fact attitude becuase that's who I am (back to that science stuff), I also have a dry sense of humor. So you do not have anything to say about all the facts and data I provided except you do not like me? Ok, who's the troll? Peace and pasta man, you two got way to riled up, don't you see your the only ones upset? P.S. Thanks for the negative vote thingy. Like I care about those vote things. That just shows who the troll is... And no, it's not only "techno-babel", also known as science, I already said I have great yields using this method. You guys just read what you wanted to, you came here with a pre-conceived notion, there's nothing I can do about that... BTW: EDIT: I just noticed what your little ignored pic says: "Nig"-nored. What the hell man? Are you racist? What is that crap? Why bring race into it? That shames you more than I ever could...I feel sorry for you and your world-view...I really do. BTW, how old are you?... And on that point, why is that little pic even here? Does the shroomery endorse racism? <<---That is an honest question. Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 05:58 PM)
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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That I said what, why argue with me? Why are you surprised I said that? You guys are jumping all over me for stating the facts, I'm sorry they are inconvenient ones for you.
It's not the name but the history and experience associated with it. Would you tell your dr. he is wrong becuase he quotes Hippocrates? (just an example; don't read into it please) I trust the info by the names and the studies I have read with the how, why, when, and where.
When it attempts to claim superiority yes. People may use it without realizing it's limits. You guys are just looking for things to pick at... Why not disagree on the merits of the science I put forth? Why use personal attacks? You don't like me, that's fine. But it doesn't make the info I state any less true.
I understand this.
Neither did I. I simply broke it down by it's constituents and showed which are worth while and which are not. I would think you would thank me.
I was not attacking you our your yield. I wrote the info about super cakes before you even posted in this thread.
Yea that is the adult step. We are not even arguing in a negative manner. You guys have yet to show me one reason to use the items in the super cake mix, besides saying it works. Well I know that, tell me why. -------------------- Peace and Pasta
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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ha,
Mephistophelian just deleted his 5 stars he originally gave me. I guess he wants to be like FooMan? Don't you guys see, your are more interested in being a clic than interested in science and furthering your knowledge. That's fine with me. I have no beef with you guys, you can hate on me all you want. I tried to give eatyoualive 5 starts for his second post a few hours ago but I could not because I don't have 50 posts...but yea, I'm the troll
-------------------- Peace and Pasta
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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One last point...
So the two "trusted cultivators" are both putting me on ignore after one admitted I have very good points and info. Doesn't that seem a bit odd? Or, ummm, clicky? You guys just look like your mad I disagree with you and that I have science and the whole commercial mushroom industry to back me up...oh, that and Stamets along with Penn State. But your right, all you need is Hippy3 and his theory along with your extensive opinion of what, maybe 10 years combined?... -------------------- Peace and Pasta
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Mephistophelian Quasi Hob-Nobbery Registered: 08/14/08 Posts: 2,527 Loc: Camp Crystal Lak Last seen: 10 months, 26 days |
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I'm not like Fooman or anyone else. I'm usually pretty damn cynical but I've tried to take a more friendly stance for the last few weeks.
See, at first I was enjoying the information you brought forward, but when you start saying things like "I don't need to try it because I know its crap" or that your not willing to just simply putting forward some evidence like I mention in my post...then I see no reason to have 5 mushies. I wasn't going to bad rate you because there's no reason for that, because I don't have a beef with you, but unless you are willing to back up what you seem to show a great deal of knowledge in with just photo's & some data...then everything would be square and I'd say you definitely earned the 5 mushies. I was going to wait and see what you were going to bring forward over time (I suspect you were going to show a few pictures of your wares and knowledge in action) so I had no problem giving high thanks. Simple. But if you don't show evidence and some proof to your experiences (and simply argue that Stamets and Penn State are using it solidly but you won't show how well its worked for you)...then sadly, these posts are just like thousands of others that have been quite scientific with lots of sheets and write ups but absolutely no practical evidence to show personal experience. I don't see a reason to give high ratings if your not willing to put the effort forward and prove your point with hard evidence. No beef...just right to the point. A teacher can't give marks to a student that doesn't show their work for a difficult math question if the student just drops the answer and says "I do it all in my head, trust me". I'd love to see hard evidence...instead of spending money and several months of testing to find out myself of what your saying. I use the SuperCake recipe because I see that it works very well in action, if you can do the same to show that your very specific modifications are as good or better, I see no reason but to give you 5 mushies. 
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Livingston Space Ranger Registered: 05/15/09 Posts: 223 Loc: Cali Last seen: 17 years, 17 days |
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Hey,
Your reason for taking away the mushrooms makes sense, sorry I compared you to FooMan. I thought you were being childish like he is. But if all you want is a side by side with and without oil and SaC that no problem. I thought you wanted me to go buy all those items and also use the super cake mix. I'm not going to bother using the super cake mix. The only benefits from the super cake mix, in my opinion, is from the flax seed, kelp meal and cottonseed meal; everything else in that mix is not worth using in my opinion. I can do a trial with the mix I propose, a straight bulk mix without oil and SaC and I'll do a few trays with kelp meal, flax seed and cottonseed meal. I'll use an isolate and do so in the next month. If eatyoualive and FooMan would have said: "a mix of kelp meal, flax seed and cottonseed meal is ideal" I would tend to agree in lue of no oil or liquid kelp. But the super cake mix is just silly in my opinion. Thanks for being rational and explaining what you did. I'll post the pics soon. -------------------- Peace and Pasta
Edited by Livingston (05/22/09 07:29 PM)
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FooMan Registered: 02/02/05 Posts: 8,957 Loc: Earth
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Well put. I actually thought livy had some valid points and suggestions. Stuff worth looking into, but I won't even bother debating someone with that much arrogance so the ignore feature had to be put to use. I know what works for me and I'm definitely open minded to trying out new ideas and taking criticism. What I'm not willing to do is read a bunch of condescending posts full of little personal jabs. Mature debate without the bullshit is much more productive than the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. I didn't think my post warranted the shitastic response it received from him I've got more important things in life to stress over than anonymous trolls on the internet  
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