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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: lavod]
    #10185658 -

I'm glad to see that my dissenting opinion is thought of by you as a "Fucking moron," which by the way is a great way to have a decent discussion about something.

Quote:
Frankly, I'd consider anyone who does'nt consider sexual preference as much of an issue as race in terms of discrimination and oppression a complete fucking moron.

How is it the same? Comparing the plight of minorities to that of homosexuals is just ridiculous, not only that but it devalues the issues that minorities have historically faced.

I'm not saying gays haven't had a tough time I'm saying that to attempt to attach gay rights to that of the minority struggle is ludicrous.

Quote:
And as to why many of blacks and latinos oppose gay marriage?  Who can be sure but the individuals themselves? 

You can ask them.

Quote:
You are surely not to be the judge of their decision. Obviously, factors vary.

Hold up a minute. I am not judging their decision, I am stating their opinion. Yes, "factors vary" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

[quote And if the reason you stated is the main factor, I'd simply call that individual an ignore-ant just as I would yourself.

Calling anyone who disagrees with you ignorant is not going to "win" this argument. You said for the sake of argument, lets say I am correct. And then you say "well they're just ignorant"

I ask you, how does that refute my argument? Calling me names in no way damages my argument.

Quote:
One thing to keep in mind, of course, is that minority races have the right to marry anywhere in the U.S, whereas us homos are limited to 4 states.  Therefore everyone, regardless of any other factors, who opposes gay marriage is no different than anyone else who opposes ones rights on the basis of a difference from the norm.

.... This doesn't make any sense. The conclusion does not follow from the premises. You went from talking about minority groups to anyone who opposes gay marriage regardless of their background.

Quote:
And as for this common thought: "Honestly, I'm fine with having gays get all the same legal rights as a marriage in a civil union or whatever, but don't call it marriage" ?  I'll simply repeat: selfish belief over the rights of others.


I don't find hurting someones feelings to be a good enough argument to change a law.

This is a value claim, and the majority of people have found that they don't find gay marriage to be an important value.


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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: mozartvicious]
    #10186046 -

I've always been opposed to state-sanctioned gay marriage.
Then again, I've always been opposed to state-sanctioned marriage, period.
No one should have to get a license from big brother to get married.

Marriage should be between 2 people (or 3, or 20....whatever suits your fancy) and the government should take no notice.  And all the stupid government perks that come with marriage (tax incentives, etc) should be abolished.  And anyone who wants to protect their legal status (as far as beneficiaries, end of life decisions, property ownership rights, etc) could take care of it through other legal avenues that already exist and are open to everyone anyway.

Children are the trickiest part of the equation.  But marriage doesn't simplify the problems anyway when it comes to the the family courts.  If anything it just adds another level of complexity to bad situations.


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: learningtofly]
    #10186051 -

Not good at multi quoting, but I'll address your response in sequence.

-"Fucking moron" is a bit harsh but I'll debate as I see fit and face the consequences.  I think I'm behaving rather well in response to this thread considering that the discussion is whether or not me and my fellow humans should have certain rights simply based upon our sexual preference.

- It is'nt the same, it's equal.  This is clear as we are talking about two groups who have been subject to rampant discrimination.  This topic is about the fact that gays do not enjoy the right of marriage in many areas.  Minorities do so long as it is between a man and a woman.  This is a comparison.  I do not need to bring up the comparison between the two groups outside of this area, but I did only to make a seemingly obvious point.  I seemed to have triggered a nerve. 

-"I'm saying that to attempt to attach gay rights to that of the minority struggle is ludicrous"  A comparison is not an attachment.  Even so, I fail to see how this is ludicrous at all.  Please be aware that I am not saying that homosexuals should possess the right to marry as retribution for their historical mistreatment, I feel that they should have the right to marry do to the fact that everyone else of age and consent does.

-Sure I can ask them.  What are you getting at?  I'd say that if we could come up with a main factor for denying gay marriage by anyone regardless of race, it would be the unfortunate result of social programming in this largely anti-gay world.

-If you are stating their opinion, please tell me how you have attained the knowledge of the opinion of every person of non-caucasian race.

-Trying to win an argument is most often futile, I'll debate for the sake of debating my case and putting my stance out there in the open.  I'm not calling those who do not agree with me ignorant, I'm using the term ignore-ant for those who fit the definition.  You see, ignore-ant is superior to simply "ignorant" in this case.  Ignorance is sometimes justifiable.  Ignore-ant harmonizes ignorance with the drone consciousness of the ant.  Just a little composite I came up with once :wink: .  Again, not calling you names personally, but melding my perception of a certain stance to the word.  There is a difference.

-Not my best paragraph, mind, but I think it was pretty clear.  Discard if you will. 

-I do'nt find discrimination based on sexual preference validation for a rule("law") in the first place.


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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: learningtofly]
    #10186235 -

learningtofly said:
Quote:
Frankly, I'd consider anyone who does'nt consider sexual preference as much of an issue as race in terms of discrimination and oppression a complete fucking moron.

How is it the same? Comparing the plight of minorities to that of homosexuals is just ridiculous, not only that but it devalues the issues that minorities have historically faced.

I'm not saying gays haven't had a tough time I'm saying that to attempt to attach gay rights to that of the minority struggle is ludicrous.


But gays are a minority.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: mozartvicious]
    #10188679 -

The government has no business re-defining the word marriage to include something that it is not.  If gay people want to enjoy the same benefits as married people, that is fine, but marriage is not a union between two people of the same sex.  If gay people want to suffer the same problems as married people - that's just plain stupid... but hey, go right ahead.  The government has no business licensing, or changing definitions of marriage.  Their role should be limited to adjudicating contractual disputes (marriage included).


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188697 -

But the fact of the matter is that marriage is recognised by the government, and married couples gain certain rights and benefits. Those rights and benefits should be available to gay couples too.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188699 -

Trepiodos said:
marriage is not a union between two people of the same sex.


says who?

you?

your church?


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188705 -

Quote:
The government has no business re-defining the word marriage to include something that it is not.


Definitions are fluid. What did the institution of citizenry mean 100, 200, 300 years ago? Certainly not the same thing it means today.

I agree with you that the government needs to get out of the marriage business, but until it does, what it is doing is blatant discrimination.

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Yrat]
    #10188730 -

Yrat said:
Trepiodos said:
marriage is not a union between two people of the same sex.


says who?

you?

your church?


Historically, culturally, that is what marriage is.  I did not make this up, any more than I made up the definition of the word, 'shoe.'  I do not support the government changing the definition of either to suit the political winds of the moment.

Government has no business dictating the terms of marriage.  Government has no business setting up laws preferential to married people vs. single people or gay couples vs. single gay people or gay couples vs single straight people.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188757 -

So should the government withdraw those rights? That'll be a hard fight.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188769 -

Trepiodos said:
Government has no business setting up laws preferential to married people vs. single people or gay couples vs. single gay people or gay couples vs single straight people.



exactly, so how do we dismantle the current set of laws preferential to married heterosexual couples?


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Yrat]
    #10188843 -

Yrat said:
exactly, so how do we dismantle the current set of laws preferential to married heterosexual couples?


Perhaps the more tenable solution would be to grant the same rights or tax exemptions to everyone regardless of marital status.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188870 -

So separate but equal institutions? Or we can just call it marriage.

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Redstorm]
    #10188893 -

A union between a man and a woman is not the same as a union between a man and a man (that should be readily apparent from a cursory glance at the participants).  YOU can call it whatever you want, the government should butt the hell out (other than removing any legal preferences for any individuals or associations of individuals).


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188895 -

Trepiodos said:
Historically, culturally, that is what marriage is.


That amounts to fuck all. Slavery was an historical and culture and tradition, that didn't make it any less unconstitutional or unjust. We should anyone be nostalgic about a well established tradition of punishing ourselves for expressing our own sexuality?

Quote:
I do not support the government changing the definition of either to suit the political winds of the moment.


Too late. The government changed the definition of marriage as soon as it recognized it legally. Why the obsession with the word anyway? Whats the fucking difference between "marriage" and "civil union?" Why would you deny people and yourself freedom in order to defend a word's current definition?

Quote:
Government has no business dictating the terms of marriage.  Government has no business setting up laws preferential to married people vs. single people or gay couples vs. single gay people or gay couples vs single straight people.


Agreed.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: gluke bastid]
    #10188965 -

gluke bastid said:
Trepiodos said:
Historically, culturally, that is what marriage is.


That amounts to fuck all. Slavery was an historical and culture and tradition, that didn't make it any less unconstitutional or unjust. We should anyone be nostalgic about a well established tradition of punishing ourselves for expressing our own sexuality?


There is no logic to your response.  I am referring to the meanings of words, not the institution of slavery.  Nor I am I advocating punishing anyone.  How do you conjure that up out of my statements?

Quote:
Too late. The government changed the definition of marriage as soon as it recognized it legally.


You are going to have to explain that one.

Quote:
Why the obsession with the word anyway?


You'll have to tell me why some people are obsessed with terming homosexuals unions as marriage, I really don't know why some are obsessed with changing the common usage of terms.

Quote:
Whats the fucking difference between "marriage" and "civil union?"


You don't know?  Marriage is a  union between a man and a woman, usually and historically formalized under the auspices of a religious or traditional ceremony.  A civil union is a union between two people, licensed by a political entity (marriage can fall under the broader category of civil union).  Marriage pre-dates political governments (the state) in human society.  Civil unions do not.

Quote:
Why would you deny people and yourself freedom in order to defend a word's current definition?


I am denying no one's freedom, you are not comprehending everything in my posts as I intended.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10188989 -

Do you really think words are that concrete? Refer to my earlier post about the definition of "citizen" over time.

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10189000 -

Quote:
You don't know?  Marriage is a  union between a man and a woman, usually and historically formalized under the auspices of a religious or traditional ceremony.  A civil union is a union between two people, licensed by a political entity (marriage can fall under the broader category of civil union).  Marriage pre-dates political governments (the state) in human society.  Civil unions do not.


If a church is willing to marry two men, are they in a marriage?

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Redstorm]
    #10189044 -

Redstorm said:
Do you really think words are that concrete? Refer to my earlier post about the definition of "citizen" over time.


Words are labels which identify concepts or physical items in the real world.  Of course they are not concrete.  However, when we have a legal edict that contradicts the common usage of a word, it destroys the usefulness of the word and corrupts the language, leading to incoherence in communication.  Words are inexact enough without government numbskulls and leftist busy bodies mucking things up even more.  I am not French, I do not agree that government should  dictate the meanings of words, I believe in a more organic approach to the evolution of language that has suited us fairly well throughout all of human history.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

Edited by Trepiodos (04/18/09 12:31 PM)

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Re: Gay Marriage thoughts [Re: Redstorm]
    #10189059 -

Redstorm said:
If a church is willing to marry two men, are they in a marriage?


If I start to call pork, fish, does that means it's suddenly a kosher item?

Ultimately, I don't care what a church wants to do.  The government should butt out.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

Edited by Trepiodos (04/18/09 12:30 PM)

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