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Invisibledaussaulit
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Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't banned
    #2892914 - 07/15/04 11:28 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/15/samesex.marriage/index.html
Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush says he is "disappointed" that a move to effectively ban same-sex marriage was "temporarily blocked" in the Senate, and he is urging the House to take up the matter.

"Activist judges and local officials in some parts of the country are not letting up in their efforts to redefine marriage for the rest of America, and neither should defenders of traditional marriage flag in their efforts," Bush said in a statement.

"It is important for our country to continue the debate on this important issue, and I urge the House of Representatives to pass this amendment."

Efforts to pass a constitutional amendment to effectively ban gay marriage failed in the Senate on Wednesday afternoon.

Opponents denounced the failed effort as a "political tool" during an election year.

"Today, we saw President Bush and the Republican leadership attempt to divide America and it backfired, instead dividing their own party," said Cheryl Jacques, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights organization. "We saw the politics of distraction fail and fail handily."

Supporters of the amendment vowed to keep fighting for the measure.

"This is a long process," said Republican Sen. Wayne Allard of Colorado, sponsor of the amendment. "Nobody on our side, I think, ever felt for a minute that this was going to be a one-shot deal and it was going to be over with at that particular point in time."

The proposed amendment, championed by Bush, was killed for this session after a procedural vote to move the measure to the Senate floor for final consideration failed 48-50 -- 12 votes shy of the 60 required by Senate rules.

Six Republicans -- including Sen. John McCain of Arizona -- joined 43 Democrats and one independent to defeat the measure. Three Democrats and 45 Republicans voted for it.

Republicans had expected to muster the votes needed to at least advance the measure, if not the 67 required to pass it. They also expected to force the presumptive Democratic presidential ticket -- Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts and Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina -- to vote against it.

A constitutional amendment requires a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress to pass. Then the proposal would need the approval of three-fourths of the state legislatures to be ratified.

Both Kerry and Edwards were on record opposing the measure but decided not to return for the procedural vote since their votes weren't needed to defeat it. They were the only senators not voting.

Kerry, who was in Boston, issued a statement saying the Senate floor "should only be used for the common good, not issues designed to divide us for political purposes."

Edwards, at a campaign rally in Iowa, said "the president and the vice president tried to use our Constitution and the amendment of that Constitution as a political tool, and the United States Senate, they said, 'No. We will not accept it.' "

A Bush campaign aide responded, "It takes a special kind of senator to attack others over a vote that they don't show up for."

Bush did not directly address the amendment's defeat during a bus tour of Wisconsin, but he reiterated his opposition to same-sex marriage during a rally in Ashwaubenon, a Green Bay suburb.

"We stand for institutions like marriage and family which are the foundations of our society," he said, drawing thunderous applause from the partisan crowd. "We stand for judges who strictly and faithfully interpret the law, instead of legislating from the bench."

Social conservatives have been pushing hard for the measure since May, when the highest court in Massachusetts legalized same-sex marriages in the Bay State.

Polls show a solid majority of Americans are against legalizing same-sex marriages, although the gap narrows when it comes to amending the Constitution.
Varying views

Bush's stance was echoed by Republican Sen. Bill Frist of Tennessee during debate. "Will activist judges not elected by the American people destroy the institution of marriage, or will the people protect marriage as the best way to raise children? My vote is with the people," said the majority leader.

Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said the amendment would simply preserve a fundamental institution "that a few unelected judges are trying to radically change." It's not a question of discrimination against gays, he said.

The amendment, as proposed by Allard, would add these two sentences to the Constitution:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman."

Some Republicans objected to the second sentence, saying it was so ambiguous that it also could prevent states from allowing gays and lesbians to join in civil unions.

Other senators expressed concern that the measure would usurp the states' traditional dominion over family law, and some questioned whether it was necessary.

Republican Sen. John Sununu of New Hampshire, who voted against moving the measure forward, said it was too early to make the assumption that judges might strike down laws such as the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act and 38 similar state statutes that define marriage as a union only between a man and a woman.

"Naturally, there exist concerns about what activist courts might do to undermine these rights and the Defense of Marriage Act," Sununu said in a statement. "But it is premature to amend the Constitution based upon a hypothetical scenario."

McCain went even further, calling the amendment "antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans." (Full story)

Besides Sununu and McCain, the other Republicans who broke with the GOP leadership on the issue were Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island and Ben Nighthorse Campbell of Colorado.

The three Democrats voting to advance the measure were Robert Byrd of West Virginia, Zell Miller of Georgia and Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

Afterward, proponents tried to put the best face on the defeat, vowing to press forward until they win.

"I think we are going to have a long and extended discussion in the country about what is marriage. ... We won on substance. We lost on procedure," said Republican Sam Brownback of Kansas, noting that Democrats were "definitely" not listening to their constituents.



I wonder if its the same kind of disappointment the 9/11 victim's families felt when bush blocked investigations of 9/11.


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2893126 - 07/15/04 01:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What a jerk.






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Mp3 of the month:  The Bees - Voices Green And Purple



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Learyfan]
    #2893425 - 07/15/04 03:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What a majority of jerks.


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(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2893518 - 07/15/04 03:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

GW Bush is a moral bastion. A former coke-head, duty-shirker, drunk driver who made his millions off the back of taxpayers (legal, but unethical fraud) is a likely candidate to judge others like the good Christian he is.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't banned [Re: daussaulit]
    #2893552 - 07/15/04 03:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Oh goodness, I dont know if I have the mental energy to express how I feel on this article.

Please america, wake up.

Why, oh why? Your daddy got outta office for a reason, bub.

So where is Nader this year?

PS..Texas has oil too damnit.


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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't banned [Re: daussaulit]
    #2893855 - 07/15/04 05:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

You all should cry, they arrest and tortue gay people in many places.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't banned [Re: Redo]
    #2893858 - 07/15/04 05:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
You all should cry, they arrest and tortue gay people in many places.



:wtf:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2893878 - 07/15/04 05:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

well then, I guess we should be happy that they
only get treated half-bad here, right?


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2893947 - 07/15/04 06:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

hehe Bush hopes gay marriage can become the center of debate.... Maybe take some scrutiny off the loads of BS he(they) dumped on us.

"It is important for our country to continue the debate on this important issue"


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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Offlineblu3
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Registered: 03/06/04
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2894219 - 07/15/04 07:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think he's trying to destract from the war... the "real" issues


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: blu3]
    #2894571 - 07/15/04 09:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blu3 said:
I think he's trying to destract from the war... the "real" issues




Worked for Clinton, just the opposite way, distracting the war problems with sex problems.


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Anonymous

Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: blu3]
    #2894604 - 07/15/04 09:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think he's trying to destract from the war... the "real" issues

not really. this was about forcing democrats to take a stand on the issue. it was part of a very long pattern of the republican party playing to the christian values of middle america in order to secure votes from people for whom voting republican would appear economically disadvantageous. it's a sad situation.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: ]
    #2894970 - 07/15/04 11:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ohh no, what politicians would want to secure votes?


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2895028 - 07/15/04 11:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

He is securing votes by taking a side on a very sticky issue. Hopefully most people realise that this issue shouldn't be case closed already.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #2895047 - 07/15/04 11:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
He is securing votes by taking a side on a very sticky issue. Hopefully most people realise that this issue shouldn't be case closed already.




Better then having two opinions over one topic, what do you expect from anybody? There will be two sides, thats why the issue is open.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2895148 - 07/16/04 12:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

He is trying to close the issue with the ammendmants to the constitution.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #2895174 - 07/16/04 12:17 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

And it wont work, but the topic is still open, its just something he feels very strongly about, as do alot of americans.


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OfflineKasumeat
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2895960 - 07/16/04 04:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
What a majority of jerks.




Correct on both counts! :smile:


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A utopian government is the best type.


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OfflineTasty_Smurf_House
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2897751 - 07/16/04 06:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Gay marraige is legal in several provinces in Canada now.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2899929 - 07/17/04 04:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

This whole issue really annoys me. Look how much time, and tax money we have spent trying to strip more rights away from ourselves... And why, I ask... so that people that are married can feel more secure knowing that they aren't gay, because gay's can't marry... Why do I care if gay people marry?! It changes absolutely nothing, zero, nadda, zilch, in my life. It isn't as if I am going to drop dead because Sue and Ellen vowed their love to one another.

This is just another attempt for the government to watch what private citizens do in their home. Next thing you know, they will try to outlaw sex during daylight... somebody somewhere might be offended by people having sex during the day...


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Seuss]
    #2899948 - 07/17/04 04:15 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why do I care if gay people marry?!

because it will undermine the sacred institution of marriage, leading to social decay and the decline and eventual fall of society, not to mention the wrath of god.

:shrug:


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: ]
    #2899993 - 07/17/04 04:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

because it will undermine the sacred institution of marriage, leading to social decay and the decline and eventual fall of society, not to mention the wrath of god.




Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty... let them marry and if the world starts to turn in the opposite direction, well, we can worry about it then.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2900181 - 07/17/04 05:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think that the government should get out of the marriage business.

Tell everyone that they are free to marry whomever or whatever they want, and that we don't care.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2900196 - 07/17/04 05:40 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

*GASP* *HORROR* You used a four-letter word! F**E! The government hates that word.

Anyone else here notice that most all homosexuals are offspring from married heterosexuals?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2900298 - 07/17/04 06:13 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
I think that the government should get out of the marriage business.

Tell everyone that they are free to marry whomever or whatever they want, and that we don't care.




unfortunatly marriage has a legal status, so you can wed however you want, just not with legal status.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2900316 - 07/17/04 06:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
I think that the government should get out of the marriage business.

Tell everyone that they are free to marry whomever or whatever they want, and that we don't care.



I think they should wipe the word "marriage" out of the law. Civil unions for gay people, and civil unions for straight people. Religions can call them marriages if they want.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2900338 - 07/17/04 06:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think we should stop giving everyone tax breaks for shacking up with eachother and breeding.


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2900354 - 07/17/04 06:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It's not just about tax breaks(on balance, married people actually get penalized more). It's about visitation rights, inheritance rights, etc. Also, there's the issue of who's entitled to what in a divorce.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2900383 - 07/17/04 06:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I read (don't know if it's true) that the first marriage licenses in the U.S. were required as a way to stop interracial marriages. The government has no business in marriage or any other voluntary union between consenting adults (yes, I also support the right to engage in polygamy - though one wife is often too much). Any people so desiring should be able to have signed statements as to who has visitation rights, inheritance rights, etc. and it should not be up for dispute by any governmental body.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Evolving]
    #2900393 - 07/17/04 06:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent point. Let the people involved work out the terms of the contract, and leave the government with only the authority to enforce it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Evolving]
    #2900441 - 07/17/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I read (don't know if it's true) that the first marriage licenses in the U.S. were required as a way to stop interracial marriages. The government has no business in marriage or any other voluntary union between consenting adults (yes, I also support the right to engage in polygamy - though one wife is often too much). Any people so desiring should be able to have signed statements as to who has visitation rights, inheritance rights, etc. and it should not be up for dispute by any governmental body.



ABSOLUTELY true. A related historical fact is that the first gun licenses were issued to free'd slaves that the government feared would take arms in revenge against their former masters.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: daussaulit]
    #2900513 - 07/17/04 07:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think alot of people here are side-stepping the fact that the gay marriages issue is a product of rogue activist courts. I have a problem with it because it is an abitrary revision of the most fundamental social contract in human civilization, and is being forced upon an unwilling public and legislature by self-righteous judges.
The process of 'legalizing' gay marriage has been in no way democratic. Certaint groups use autocratic courts to force changes on the culture that the majority rejects.
If the public really wanted gay marriages and congress voted to pass it, then fine. But when one social group tries to use the judicial branch to overide the democracy in favor their agenda I have a serious problem.
Moreover, changing what marriage is should not happen on a whim. People should think of the ultimate consequences of dissolving the cultural basis for the family unit. There is a slippery slope as well. I see no reason why the same argument can't be used in favor of polygamy or pedophilia, save for those practices aren't as culturaly recognized. Unless we are really ready for a true anarchist or Spartan society, we should be apprehensive about letting the basis of human civilization be changed. If we are ready, then let the Congress decide, not the courts.
I am surprised so many libertarians support such an autocratic policy.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2900539 - 07/17/04 08:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I think alot of people here are side-stepping the fact that the gay marriages issue is a product of rogue activist courts.



Seems to me that they're just following the Equal Protection clause.

Quote:

I have a problem with it because it is an abitrary revision of the most fundamental social contract in human civilization, and is being forced upon an unwilling public and legislature by self-righteous judges.



I love how people like you use the word "force." It is none of your business if two men or two women want to declare their love for each other and sign a mutually binding contract. The public is not being forced into anything except minding its own business.

Quote:

The process of 'legalizing' gay marriage has been in no way democratic. Certaint groups use autocratic courts to force changes on the culture that the majority rejects.



So what? Democracy is nothing more than the tyranny of the majority. The majority does not have any more right to impose its will on peaceful individuals than does a minority.

Quote:

Moreover, changing what marriage is should not happen on a whim. People should think of the ultimate consequences of dissolving the cultural basis for the family unit.



Like what? Having to mind your own business?

Quote:

There is a slippery slope as well. I see no reason why the same argument can't be used in favor of polygamy or pedophilia, save for those practices aren't as culturaly recognized.



What's wrong with polygamy? If all parties involved are willing, then what's wrong with having more than one wife(apart from having a bunch of women PMSing at the same time)? As for pedophilia, the difference is informed consent. A child is not mature enough to fully understand the repurcussions of sex. If they were, I'd have no problem with it.

Quote:

Unless we are really ready for a true anarchist or Spartan society, we should be apprehensive about letting the basis of human civilization be changed.



Long live anarchy!!!! Fuck the government!!!

Quote:

If we are ready, then let the Congress decide, not the courts.



No, let people make decisions for themselves, instead of letting the government tell them who they can and can't sign a voluntary contract with.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2900589 - 07/17/04 08:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

How can you hate the government so much? They have to provide people of lesser needs just because it would be inhumane to let them live a miserable life. But as soon as they step in on any other topic, its a complete hatred. You have to give and take some, and gay marriage is a relativly new issue. Some states dont even allow some forms of sex. This has to be debated and decided on the legislative side, not on the judicial end.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2900613 - 07/17/04 08:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
How can you hate the government so much?



Simple. I don't like thugs who initiate force against peaceful individuals.

Quote:

They have to provide people of lesser needs just because it would be inhumane to let them live a miserable life.



No, it would be inhumane to CAUSE them to live a miserable life. If they make bad choices in life, it is their responsibility to deal with it.

Quote:

But as soon as they step in on any other topic, its a complete hatred.



And rightfully so. I will continue to oppose tyranny in all forms.

Quote:

You have to give and take some, and gay marriage is a relativly new issue. Some states dont even allow some forms of sex. This has to be debated and decided on the legislative side, not on the judicial end.



People have a right to live as they see fit, so long as they do not initiate force against others. With this right comes the obligation to respect others' rights to do the same. This is a matter of human rights, and is not up for discussion.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2904686 - 07/19/04 08:54 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I think they should wipe the word "marriage" out of the law. Civil unions for gay people, and civil unions for straight people. Religions can call them marriages if they want.




That is the best idea I have heard yet.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Seuss]
    #2905094 - 07/19/04 12:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

I think they should wipe the word "marriage" out of the law. Civil unions for gay people, and civil unions for straight people. Religions can call them marriages if they want.




That is the best idea I have heard yet.




Why change it? There is no difference between that idea and just legalizing gay marriage. Its playing word games.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905142 - 07/19/04 12:42 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> Its playing word games.

Exactly, which is why this is such a waste of time... it is all word games... stupid waste of money... Why change it? Because people are getting their panties in a wad about it... so remove the problem and let people call their union whatever they want... as long as the law offers equal protections to couples, gay or straight, I don't care what they call it.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905148 - 07/19/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

I think they should wipe the word "marriage" out of the law. Civil unions for gay people, and civil unions for straight people. Religions can call them marriages if they want.




That is the best idea I have heard yet.




Why change it? There is no difference between that idea and just legalizing gay marriage. Its playing word games.



So is outlawing gay marriage simply because of some dictionary definition of the word "marriage."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2905299 - 07/19/04 01:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

So is outlawing gay marriage simply because of some dictionary definition of the word "marriage."




And the legal definition.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905315 - 07/19/04 01:50 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So that's why we need civil unions for both straight and gay couples.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2905328 - 07/19/04 01:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
So that's why we need civil unions for both straight and gay couples.




marriage has been around in tact the same way it is now as it has been for the entire written history of mankind. Who is to say that all of a sudden 20 years into modern times makes gay marriage valid.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905396 - 07/19/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
marriage has been around in tact the same way it is now as it has been for the entire written history of mankind.



When were the first marriage licences required? When was polygamy outlawed? How long has it been since arranged marriages went out of favor? How long ago did it become illegal to marry someone under 18 years of age?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905474 - 07/19/04 03:09 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> Who is to say that all of a sudden 20 years into modern times makes gay marriage valid.

Yep, and we used to have slaves too... just because something has always been doesn't mean that it is correct.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2905831 - 07/19/04 05:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
So that's why we need civil unions for both straight and gay couples.




marriage has been around in tact the same way it is now as it has been for the entire written history of mankind. Who is to say that all of a sudden 20 years into modern times makes gay marriage valid.



In some cultures, marriage can mean a union between one man and several women or one woman and several men. Its meaning is far from static.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2906065 - 07/19/04 06:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

We don't need civil unions or marriage. The government should get the fuck out of this business entirely


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2906402 - 07/19/04 08:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Polygamy is a problem, but it still remains between a man and a woman.

And believe it or not, gays are not oppressed like slaves were.

Evolving, we are a country built on traditions.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2906410 - 07/19/04 08:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Paligomy is a problem, but it still remains between a man and a woman.



How is it a problem?

Quote:

And believe it or not, gays are not oppressed like slaves were.



Being denied equal rights is what I call oppression.

Quote:

Evolving, we are a country built on traditions.



So it was a tradition to use guerrilla tactics to gain independence from one's former ruler?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRedo
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: silversoul7]
    #2906422 - 07/19/04 08:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Redo said:
Paligomy is a problem, but it still remains between a man and a woman.



How is it a problem?

Watch A&E's special on Polygamy, youll see why (they just interview both sides, no lean)

Quote:

And believe it or not, gays are not oppressed like slaves were.



Being denied equal rights is what I call oppression.

I still dont see gay marriage as equal rights, considering it isnt what marriage is all about.

Quote:

Evolving, we are a country built on traditions.



So it was a tradition to use guerrilla tactics to gain independence from one's former ruler?




That is war
( sorry about the formatting, im in a hurry to do somethin)


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2906445 - 07/19/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Redo said:
Paligomy is a problem, but it still remains between a man and a woman.



How is it a problem?




Watch A&E's special on Polygamy, youll see why (they just interview both sides, no lean)



Let me guess: Something about high divorce rate and lots of jealousy. Big deal. People should be free to marry whoever they want, as long as the other person gives informed consent.

Quote:

Quote:

And believe it or not, gays are not oppressed like slaves were.



Being denied equal rights is what I call oppression.

I still dont see gay marriage as equal rights, considering it isnt what marriage is all about.



Marriage is a contract. Simple as that. Gays should have the same freedom to make such a contract between themselves as straight people should.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving, we are a country built on traditions.



So it was a tradition to use guerrilla tactics to gain independence from one's former ruler?




That is war
( sorry about the formatting, im in a hurry to do somethin)



And an unprecedented war of independence at that. The founding fathers were certainly willing to shrug off tradition in the name of liberty. We should all be willing to do the same.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinealeighe
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Seuss]
    #2935478 - 07/28/04 05:36 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

hmmm...

There's two things wrong with this arguement.

One:

No one here is coming from a religous perspective. It's just all about rules & judgement.. that's why most of you guys have a hard time trying to comprehend WHY G.W.B is doing what he is and WHAT the problem is in the first place.

You can't argue for something when you know jack **** about the opponents beliefs and where he is coming from.It's a one sided voice.

But that all comes down to what you believe in blah blah blah..

Second:

okay..

What are the gays arguement?..

Love ..?

Yeah


They love eachother and there's no reason what so ever that there is anything wrong with that.

Right?

Well.. isn't that exactly the same arguemnt the pedophiles put forwad?

They just "..love.." the kids.

Pure.. Simple.. Love.. For these innocent beings.

HAH.



If any dipshit comes forwad and tells me that pedophiles are alright ... That's only proof the degradation of society now :laugh:.





So.. whens one going to merge into another?.
There's really no reason what so ever for you to not accept Pedophiles since your accepting gays on the very same arguement.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: aleighe]
    #2935484 - 07/28/04 05:52 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There's really no reason what so ever for you to not accept Pedophiles since your accepting gays on the very same arguement.



Except for that thing known as "the age of consent".

Trying to compare an adult giving consent and entering into a marriage to a child doing so is ludicrous and more than just a bit foolish.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Redo]
    #2935576 - 07/28/04 08:42 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Polygamy is a problem, but it still remains between a man and a woman.

And believe it or not, gays are not oppressed like slaves were.

Evolving, we are a country built on traditions.




They are oppressed when you tell them they chose to be the way they are and then subject them to the humiliation of being second class citizens by telling them they cant marry because it will piss God off.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: Zahid]
    #2937933 - 07/28/04 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Both Pedophiles and Gay couples base their life around another beings genital area, either underaged or of the same sex.

There are no boundries of morality when your relationship is based on lust for another mans ass. So you cannot presume that Gay couples are of equal or of adjacent legal age or that they are not.

Lust is what makes this world tick so don't underestimate it nor try to conclude it's limits.

I'm not saying that Gay couples do or may choose boys of younger ages :/ but rather you can't herald it.

Making a statement that what differentiates the acceptance of Pedophiles and Gays is the "legal age consent" whilse both parties are attracted to the very same object of desire and are known to overlap eachother.. is just plainy "ludicrous".

They are detrimental to society and the traditions of Marriage ( A subject strongly upheld in religion. Something of which many can't grasp because they are atheistic and can't stand the thought of someone above them being displeased with their actions.. that is why there is so much debate and confusion on the subject AND why a martial law is being decided to set everything straight. )

Either you go with the flow and watch everything degrade or stand up.

They are of the same passion and with one the other will,guaranteed , follow.


Edited by aleighe (07/28/04 10:05 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: aleighe]
    #2937961 - 07/28/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Both Pedophiles and Gay couples base their life around another beings genital area, either underaged or of the same sex.



Quite an ignorant statement if I've ever heard one. Just because that's what other people think of when they imagine gays does not make it so.

Quote:

There are no boundries of morality when your relationship is based on lust for another mans ass. So you cannot presume that Gay couples are of equal or of adjacent legal age or that they are not.



What if it's based on love, like most marriages are? As for legal age, what does that have to do with anything?

Quote:

I'm not saying that Gay couples do or may choose boys of younger ages :/ but rather you can't herald it.



Certainly there are gay pedophiles, just as there are straight pedophiles? What's your point? Is molesting a 5-year-old boy any more morally repugnant than molesting a 5-year-old girl?

Quote:

Making a statement that what differentiates the acceptance of Pedophiles and Gays is the "legal age consent" whilse both parties are attracted to the very same object of desire and are known to overlap eachother.. is just plainy "ludicrous".



No. It's common sense.

Quote:

They are detrimental to society and the traditions of Marriage ( A subject strongly upheld in religion. Something of which many can't grasp because they are atheistic and can't stand the thought of someone above them being displeased with their actions.. that is why there is so much debate and confusion on the subject AND why a martial law is being decided to set everything straight. )



How'd you get those sheet of yours so white?

Quote:

Either you go with the flow and watch everything degrade or stand up.



Explain how everything is "degrading."


--------------------


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: aleighe]
    #2937965 - 07/28/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

what the fuck? Are you a retard?

"Gay couples base their life around another beings genital area"
And straight couples do the same thing then! Oh no? Well gays love each other too. Right, they can't possibly love - because they're gay. Makes perfect sense. Wait, no it doesn't

You cannot prove in ANY way shape or form that Lust drives them.

This isn't about religion and morality - this is about government being fair and not ruled by religion.


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Re: GW Bush is disappointed that same-sex marriage wasn't ba [Re: aleighe]
    #2938009 - 07/28/04 10:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Let's have a look here...

Bob and Joe are a happy gay couple, both mid-30's, both involved in politics, one owns a restraunt, the other owns a car dealership. Bob likes fishing, Joe likes to ski. They like to cuddle on the canoe on the lake, or at the lodge in the mountains.

How the FUCK you can compare that to child rape is beyond me.


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