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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays
    #2261637 - 01/22/04 01:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/14/politics/campaigns/14MARR.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=
Quote:

WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 ? Administration officials say they are planning an extensive election-year initiative to promote marriage, especially among low-income couples, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote the plan next week in his State of the Union address.

For months, administration officials have worked with conservative groups on the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training to help couples develop interpersonal skills that sustain "healthy marriages."

The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the federal government defend traditional marriage, after a decision by the highest court in Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that gay couples had a right to marry under the state's Constitution.

"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives and to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said.

Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush to go further and use the State of the Union address to champion a constitutional amendment prohibiting same-sex marriage. Leaders of these groups said they were confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesitation concerning an amendment.

Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would mention the amendment, but they expressed confidence that his marriage promotion plan would please conservatives.

Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol Hill and at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are very pleased with the healthy marriage initiative."

The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically potent initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they are squeezed by growing federal budget deficits.

It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign. This year, administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs trying to raise marriage rates in poor neighborhoods.

"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with black churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said.

In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in marriage-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical evidence suggests that children fare best, financially and emotionally, in married two-parent families.

The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conservative groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him opposing gay marriage.

"We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. Stanton, a policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian organization. "You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us is, why this inching? Why not just get there?"

The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the Traditional Values Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging Mr. Bush to push for an amendment opposing the legal recognition of same-sex marriage.

Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the Family, are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with White House officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aide, who has taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical groups.

In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would support a constitutional amendment against gay marriage and gay civil unions.

"If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which would honor marriage between a man and a woman, codify that, and will ? the position of this administration is that whatever legal arrangements people want to make, they're allowed to make, so long as it's embraced by the state, or does start at the state level."

Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment might be needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That is a decision the president has to make in due time."

The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote marriage as part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 welfare law, but the bill is bogged down in the Senate.

Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained consultants to help state and local government agencies, community organizations and religious groups develop marriage-promotion programs.

Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services for children and families, said: "Marriage programs do work. On average, children raised by their own parents in healthy, stable married families enjoy better physical and mental health and are less likely to be poor."

Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the University of Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such assertions in the book "The Case for Marriage" (Doubleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former president of the Population Association of America, said she was a liberal Democrat, but not active in politics.

Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund oppose government programs that promote marriage. "Such programs intrude on personal privacy, may ignore the risk of domestic violence and may coerce women to marry," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund.

Administration officials said their goal was "healthy marriage," not marriage for its own sake.

"We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to come in with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help couples, especially low-income couples, manage conflict in healthy ways. We know how to teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initiative will not force anyone to get or stay married. The last thing we'd want is to increase the rate of domestic violence against women."

Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for specific activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of marriage, instruction in marriage skills and mentoring programs that use married couples as role models.

Federal officials said they favored premarital education programs that focus on high school students; young adults interested in marriage; engaged couples; and unmarried couples at the moment of a child's birth, when the parents are thought to have the greatest commitment to each other.

Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in Princeton, N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measure the effectiveness of such programs for unwed parents. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is providing technical assistance to marriage-education projects in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas.

A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issues that come up in their relationships."

Dr. Horn said that federal money for marriage promotion would be available only to heterosexual couples. As a federal official, he said, he is bound by a 1996 statute, the Defense of Marriage Act, which defined marriage for any program established by Congress. The law states, "The word `marriage' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife."

But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government providing support services to gay couples under other programs. If a gay couple had a child and they were poor, they might be eligible for food stamps or cash assistance."

Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of State Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue to the national level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offering marriage education and premarital counseling to low-income couples."




Also during bush's State of the Union Address he signalled his support for a constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage, vowing to "defend the sanctity of marriage".


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
Loc: Holland
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2261730 - 01/22/04 02:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

<<This year, administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs trying to raise marriage rates in poor neighborhoods.

"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with black churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said.>>>

I guess I won't be able to see him since I'll have to be in the free speach zone when he comes to the hood.
peace


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262022 - 01/22/04 05:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What an incredibly foolish waste of money.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262537 - 01/22/04 12:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

its easy to see an ulterior motive here in appealing to disenfranchised white males...but given how feminist power-tripping..and the labour surplus it creates..accounts for such a huge chunk of the corporate power base..no neocon would ever really be serious about promoting heterosexual marriage...after all..why do you think the currently male-dominated corporate media is so happy to publish rubbish like helen fisher..or produce SUV commercials that end with "threaten men in a whole new way" (in effect marketing feminism more than the product)??...

as women..we would be wise to give bush exactly what he says he wants..and see how well the neoconmen do with their cheap labour supply gone and the power-crazed feminists out of the picture...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays *DELETED* [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2262566 - 01/22/04 12:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

its easy to see an ulterior motive here in appealing to disenfranchised white males...




HOW?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/22/04 01:48 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262580 - 01/22/04 01:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

it's bad enough Bush is alienating his base with his Liberal-esque spending but is this really necessary? C'mon, i can think of a million other uses with that money that will affect this country in a positive manner...this is fucking stupid.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2262602 - 01/22/04 01:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

no neocon would ever really be serious about heterosexual marriage...after all..why do you think the currently male-dominated corporate media so happy to publish rubbish like helen fisher..or produce SUV commercials that end with "threaten men in a whole new way" (in effect marketing feminism more than the product)??...




yes sir, we have ourselves a man hater...that explains your anger. :thumbup:




as is often typical of conservatives..you didnt read the second paragraph of my post...i dont hate men at all..quite the opposite (you seem to forget..im a lamian :smile:)..i was merely trying to point out how feminist prejudice..and the labour competition it creates..are propping up the far right..and one possible solution...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays *DELETED* [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2262614 - 01/22/04 01:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Inny says:
"yes sir, we have ourselves a man hater..."

hell, did you see her avatar?! :crazy: :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays *DELETED* [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2262621 - 01/22/04 01:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Actually i misunderstood her post, that's why i changed it...but it could be true.

but i want to know how hetro males can be disenfranchised (i hate that word)?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262630 - 01/22/04 01:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It is my understanding that the number one point of contention in mariages these days is FINANCIAL. When my kids grow up and get married the intense financial burden of George Bush's profligate spending is going to cause financial hardship which will strain their marriages. So as a gift of 'compassion,' this asshole will saddle the country with an ADDITIONAL $1.5 billion of debt (on top of all his other spending) so they can be helped with their marriage problems?

George Bush must go.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Evolving]
    #2262676 - 01/22/04 01:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

most of those financial problems are the direct result of husbands and wives competing against each other in the job market...without that competition..employers couldnt cut wages so quickly (and then use the loot to invest in further increases in power)...feminist bigotry also helps the far right in other ways..as witness helen fisher's vulgar genetic determinism..which is also used to justify racism and class structures...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2262678 - 01/22/04 01:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Actually i misunderstood what you wrote, that's why i edited my post. It didn't read very good which is why i misunderstood. my bad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/22/04 01:49 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays *DELETED* [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2262698 - 01/22/04 01:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

its easy to see an ulterior motive here in appealing to disenfranchised white males...




HOW?




like this...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays *DELETED* [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2262717 - 01/22/04 02:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ha....you're not really serious are you?  I think it has to to a little less then apealing to white men (some blacks hate gays as well, i know it's shocking :shocked:) and more towards his religious beliefs...i thought that was obvious.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262721 - 01/22/04 02:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In other news today, McDonalds have announced their largest ever giveaway promotion. They will be distributing $1.5 billion in free coupons to married (hetero) couples. "What better way to keep your marriage 'healthy' than to share a delicious (not scientifically proven to increase risk of obesity*) Big Mac meal with fries and a milkshake!" A McDonalds spokesperson said today.

* According to William Steiger, special assistant for international affairs at the Department of Health and Human Services.

Seriously though, doesn't the Constitution start "We the people of the United States"? How does a constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage represent all of the people, and not just heterosexual married ones?


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 8 months, 2 days
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2262898 - 01/22/04 03:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I do believe republicans are sticking up for their own interests on this one.

more marriages means more families.

more familes means more "family values"

more familiy values means more brainwashed republicans spawning from America's heartland.

Republians win elections because they encourage massive breeding in their followers. Thats also how they get money, from brainwashed consumers.

Seriously, why would republicans or the captains of industry have an interest fostering the creation of liberal gay budhhists who dont want children or SUVs, or McDonalds?

tolerance of alternative culture does not fit in to their political or economic agendas.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2262915 - 01/22/04 03:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

more familes means more "family values"




do you actually believe that? There are tons of families out there that have absolutly no family values.

...and what's wrong with encouraging families to have values? Stay together, love your wife, kids, dogs, etc.

Quote:

more familiy values means more brainwashed republicans spawning from America's heartland




so liberals have NO family values?

Quote:

Republians win elections because they encourage massive breeding in their followers. Thats also how they get money, from brainwashed consumers.




this is quite rediculous.


I can't believe some of the conspiracy theories that come out of this forum, it's absolutly beyond crazy and bordering on just plain looniness.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 8 months, 2 days
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2262933 - 01/22/04 03:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

its not a conspiracy when its plain as day.

republicans figured out a long time ago that in order to control a republic, you must have the bigger population on your side. thats why they've always pandered to people who breed incessantly. Thats why they are giving tax breaks to people who have kids. (how republican is that, BTW?)


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2262950 - 01/22/04 03:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Democraps love to give free money to people who have kids and don't even pay taxes! They've always pandered to people who breed incessantly with no motivation to take responibility for their own actions.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2262986 - 01/22/04 04:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

republicans figured out a long time ago that in order to control a republic, you must have the bigger population on your side.




so what happens if that population turns into a bunch of libbies? Is there a secret potion out there to make sure that they stay conservatives?

Quote:

thats why they've always pandered to people who breed incessantly.




Does that include the Welfare woman with 5 kids? I'm really having a hard time seeing where you're getting this information. What's to guarantee that these kids you speak of will be "loyal" to the conservatives...you were a kid once and didn't fall prey to this "trap".

Quote:

Thats why they are giving tax breaks to people who have kids. (how republican is that, BTW?)




So that's what your basing your whole "conspiracy" on? A tax break for those that have kids? Maybe, just maybe they want to let families have an easier time raising kids. Any tax break the govt gives is a good thing as long as the spending decreases.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2263027 - 01/22/04 04:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I can't believe some of the conspiracy theories that come out of this forum, it's absolutly beyond crazy and bordering on just plain looniness.




I alwasy suspect you were one of thier spawn...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2263033 - 01/22/04 04:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ah...er...no i'm not :crazy:

me\ puts on tin foil hat :shiftyeyes:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Evolving]
    #2263106 - 01/22/04 05:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Democraps love to give free money to people who have kids and don't even pay taxes! They've always pandered to people who breed incessantly with no motivation to take responibility for their own actions.




re-poops love to give free money to giant corporations who dont even pay taxes!...they've always pandered to people who loot out the population..and dump toxic waste on them..with no motivation to take responsibility for their own actions...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2263236 - 01/22/04 06:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am against corporate welfare. I hope you're not going to use the Alex123 justification of one government wrong making another okay. 'Cause that's just plain silly.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2263366 - 01/22/04 06:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe he justs wants more couples to start pumping out babies so the massive debt their children will have to pay won't seem as much.


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2263589 - 01/22/04 08:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So that's what your basing your whole "conspiracy" on? A tax break for those that have kids? Maybe, just maybe they want to let families have an easier time raising kids. Any tax break the govt gives is a good thing as long as the spending decreases.





A: Why is the word "conspiracy" in quotes? you're certainly not quoting me. And no, I'm not basing it on just this. This is just one peice of a larger whole.

B: There has been no decrease in spending to accompany Bush's tax cuts

and finally

C: Do you really not mind paying more taxes than someone else just because they have kids? Why should you pay for their decision to breed?


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2263597 - 01/22/04 08:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

its easy to see an ulterior motive here

it usually is, isn't it? hey, i hear that with the new brain-scanners they have now, you need at least 6 layers of foil to protect yourself. you hear anything about that?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2263605 - 01/22/04 08:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why is the word "conspiracy" in quotes?




It's in quotes because conspiracy seems to be such a cliche' as of late.

Quote:

There has been no decrease in spending to accompany Bush's tax cuts and finally




That's obvious, but with reduced spending should be reduced taxes.

Quote:

Do you really not mind paying more taxes than someone else just because they have kids?




oh, don't get me wrong, i don't want to pay taxes period but that's not an option. I still don't see how this feeds the big "conspiracy" theory that has evolved in this thread.

If you answer any question, please answer this one: What made you different from those kids being taught "family values" (ie: republican brainwash) that made you not choose to be conservative?

This one to if you want: So what happens if that population turns into a bunch of libbies? Is there a secret potion out there to make sure that they stay conservatives? (from my previous post)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/22/04 08:34 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2263643 - 01/22/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What made you different from those kids being taught "family values" (ie: republican brainwash) that made you not choose to be conservative?




Liberal parents that wanted to abort me but didnt (hey, I dont blame em!)

Quote:

So what happens if that population turns into a bunch of libbies? Is there a secret potion out there to make sure that they stay conservatives? (from my previous post)




Television, radio, public education, "faith-based" initiatives, draconian drug laws, religious fanaticism, economic incentive...


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2263718 - 01/22/04 09:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Did anyone here stop to think that maybe he wants to encourage marriage in low income areas in an effort to slow promiscuity and rampant pregnancy and so that there can be children raised in a family as opposed to not knowing who their father is?? I'm not saying that it will solve the problem but it could help. I may be missing something that could contradict this though.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2263886 - 01/22/04 10:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Liberal parents that wanted to abort me but didnt (hey, I dont blame em!)




So is it a good thing to be raised by parents who thought aboot aborting you but not if your parents use good family values and hold the family together? I'm a little confused.

I was raised by a conservative mother and a liberal father so i got to see the rediculous side of each point of view.

Quote:

Television, radio, public education, "faith-based" initiatives, draconian drug laws, religious fanaticism, economic incentive...




Well if you were able to fight the temptation why isn't it possible that others can?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2264136 - 01/22/04 11:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sayin its gonna work. I'm just sayin its a grab for power, thats all. They are trying to mold society into a more easy to manipulate form- and now with tax money.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: daussaulit]
    #2264355 - 01/23/04 12:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

it's strange to see the responses in this thread...

I can't believe it took 1.5 billion for a publicity
campaign for marriage to piss people off.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: afoaf]
    #2264847 - 01/23/04 05:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I can't believe you think that's all that got people pissed.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2264938 - 01/23/04 07:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i just think you are OVER-thinking this.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/23/04 07:09 AM)


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2265310 - 01/23/04 11:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the only time I remember seeing you display disgust
at the president was when I mentioned the mexican
worker thing and this here.

sorry if I haven't been paying close enough attention,
but those are the two worries lowest on my list.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2265463 - 01/23/04 01:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
i just think you are OVER-thinking this.




could be.

But I have a 23yo friend who just got his girlfriend pregnant. They went to an abortion clinic, but some bible-thumper was standing outside and he talked them out of it (I dont know what's harder to believe- that people like that exist, or that my friend was dumb enough to listen to them) His girlfriend's parents are rabid conservatives that are pressuring them to keep the baby, and get married. These kids can barely take care of themselves, let alone a baby. They are both less than halfway through their educations. It makes no sense for them to have a kid- at least they could give it up for adoption. But they're not gonna. They have fallen into the trap- they have started their journey on the road to becoming exactly like their parents. I try to explain to them how much their lives will change for the worse when they have this kid, but my rational arguements are being drowned out by all the conservative emotional manipulation they face from their parents and society in general.

Soon, my friend will be powerless to change the world or stand up for what he believes in. His fate and his emotions will be tied to a kid that spends his money on useless consumer goods. Threats of any kind will weigh heavier on him, because he will have a family to think about and provide for. He will have to give up his dreams and take a shit job for the sake of his family. And eventually, he will see Republicans as "on his side" because they pander to families. The assimilation will be complete.

Surely you can see how a family is an anchor around a man's neck? A proverbial "ball and chain"? Conservatives want to attach this anchor to everyone- it makes them easy to manipulate, and it makes them more voracious consumers.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2265583 - 01/23/04 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Surely you can see how a family is an anchor around a man's neck? A proverbial "ball and chain"?

Sorry to sound picky, but surely it's an anchor around both of their necks? As the saying goes, "It takes two to tango".


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2265586 - 01/23/04 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't really want to get into a pro/anti abortion debate because it's non-productive but one thing really bothered me was this line you wrote:

"Surely you can see how a family is an anchor around a man's neck? "

I have a co-worker who LOVES his family. I don't think this guy would ever want to be without his family and wouldn't ever think of his family as a speedbump or as you put it "a ball and chain".

did i also mention that he's a flaming libbie? Nice guy but just out there philosophically.

As for me. i'm married and have no kids because i'm selfish and just don't want to deal with kids at this point in my life, my wife is the same.

Quote:

Conservatives want to attach this anchor to everyone




i disagree, i think conservatives (real conservatives)want people to take responsibility for their actions. It's easy to not take responsibility for your own actions which is why many people do it.

I hate to sound like my parents but your friend knew the risks before he put his pecker in....i did the same thing but i wore a condom, but lets not turn this into an abortion thread.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2265655 - 01/23/04 02:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Surely you can see how a family is an anchor around a man's neck? A proverbial "ball and chain"?



I am married with a family, there is no anchor around my neck, no ball and chain. If a man perceives that his family is an anchor around his neck, or a ball and chain, these are things that he has fashioned for himself.

Quote:

Conservatives want to attach this anchor to everyone- it makes them easy to manipulate, and it makes them more voracious consumers.



I think you are way off base on this. Conservatives (true conservatives, not neo-conservatives) want people to take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions and actions. Bush's proposal is actually going in the opposite direction. If we look at what a mess the government has made of various things it has stuck it's nose in, no one in his right mind would go along with Bush's proposal. These 'bible thumpers' who want the government to change people's behavior are not the opposite of the PC lobby, in fact they share the very same tendencies, they both want the government to remake society towards their visions. Both are wrong.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2265663 - 01/23/04 02:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


i disagree, i think conservatives (real conservatives)want people to take responsibility for their actions.




According to classic conservative values, you are right. According to classic conservative values, drugs should be legal and church and state should be separate. But last time I checked, demagogues like Limbaugh and that dude from the Christian Coalition (forgot his name, Pat something) werent stickin up for those values.

I know that you are a good guy- more libertarian than conservative. But dont forget who votes with you, because republican politicians have to pander to them as well.

as a matter of fact, I'm gonna start a new thread on the polarization of the Republican party right now.

Quote:

I hate to sound like my parents but your friend knew the risks before he put his pecker in....i did the same thing but i wore a condom, but lets not turn this into an abortion thread.





I do believe this pregnancy was the result of a broken condom. Dont forget those things are only 98% effective. Random chance can thwart even those most reponsible of plans.

Honestly, I think the most responsible thing they could do would be adoption. Trying to raise a kid at age 23 with no education is pretty irresponsible, IMO.


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Re: Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Marriage, no gays [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2265713 - 01/23/04 02:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

And the ball and chain anology is partly correct.  While many would interpret kids and a negative burden, just as many see it for the possitive effect it has on ones life.

But one thing is for sure, and that is the parents of this child will be forever bound to it by love and responsiblily...mabye court orders, and will effect the parents outlook on life in much the way doctor j described.  Working shit job for your family, more respnsive to threats etc...regardless of wheather you see your family as a blessing or a curse. :alert:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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