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Proof of Holographic Universe?
    #9920892 -

for anyone who doesnt know what the holographic universe is....im not gona take the time to explain it....a quick google search should fill u in quickly

anyway....i've been looking into this a lot because i really like the idea...but im wondering....is there any actual proof of the holographic universe or is it just an idea that some scientist proposed?

i found a compelling argument against this:

Where S is a subject, sp is a skeptical possibility, such as the brain in a vat hypothesis, and q is a knowledge claim about the world:

holographic universe:
If S doesn't know that not-sp, then S doesn't know that q
S doesn't know that not-sp
Therefore, S doesn't know that q

counter argument:
If S doesn't know that not-sp, then S doesn't know that q
S knows that q
Therefore, S knows that not-sp


while this argument is not conclusive in disproving the holographic universe....it gives me an extremely good reason to file the holographic universe under "random theories" and not really ever give it more than a "what if" thought

my basic question is: Does anyone know of any evidence towards or against the holographic universe theory? It seems to me like this is just philosophical and there is no hard evidence in either direction.

thanks for any help u can provide....peace


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: teeter]
    #9920936 -

ive read alot about this n i still dont understand how the whole holographic world theory works..


--------------------
Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!


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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: tripp23]
    #9920948 -

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html

Have you taken a low-dose mushroom trip? Space ceases to exist and everything takes on the form of energy or a hologram.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: burgatory]
    #9921025 -

Quote:
Where S is a subject, sp is a skeptical possibility, such as the brain in a vat hypothesis, and q is a knowledge claim about the world:

holographic universe:
If S doesn't know that not-sp, then S doesn't know that q
S doesn't know that not-sp
Therefore, S doesn't know that q

counter argument:
If S doesn't know that not-sp, then S doesn't know that q
S knows that q
Therefore, S knows that not-sp



WTF? :confused:
What's the purpose in the variables....to save typing? If I try substituting the variables I'm still confused...."If subject doesn't know that not-skeptical possibility, then subject doesn't know that knowledge claim about the world." And what is a skeptical possibility?

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: TameMe]
    #9921087 -

teeter said:
my basic question is: Does anyone know of any evidence towards or against the holographic universe theory? It seems to me like this is just philosophical and there is no hard evidence in either direction.



I think it is a matter of interpretation, and I guess the universe can be interpreted as something like a hologram in very high resolution.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9921705 -

I thought it was just a fancy way of describing systems theory.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9922649 -

i dunno i got that variable thing off a description of the countertheory

i think the basic way to interpret it is:

holographic universe supporters believe: if i dont know the universe is real, then i dont know that my hands are real
assume the universe is holographic
then our hands or anything else isnt real

the skeptic counter arguement is:

if i dont know the universe is real, then i dont know that my hands are real
we know our hands are real
so how is the universe fake

the point is that depending on how u look at it, this holographic universe theory is unprovable....anyone know of any proof?


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: teeter]
    #9922762 -

I think the holographic universe has a little more to it than 'not real'.  A hologram is an apparent 3-D image based off of interference from a 2-D image.  So I always thought that the holographic universe hypothesis implied our 4-D (with time)universe is a projection from a 3-D reality located elsewhere; and all the phenomenon we see are all from interference from this 3-D reality.

I honestly dont know honestly, I never really looked into the holographic universe.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9922903 -

ya thats kinda it....it also has to do with our consciousness shaping the universe into one of its possibilities....

the universe is just a bunch of matter with infinite possibilities and our senses condense it into one....


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9923332 -

i think you guys are mixed up in Hollywood

holograph has to do with the way that information about the whole is stored in each of the parts


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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9924637 -

any different than systems theory?
does the term "holographic universe" imply something different than the fact that everything is both a part of some larger whole, and a whole of some smaller parts?

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9925179 -

yes it does. ppl arent using the word for fun! (well im sure many are...)
just think about those holographic sunglasses with pot leaves in them or someshit. Its not like there is a pot leaf IN the glasses. so how does that work?


--------------------

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9934518 -

if you haven't already checked this page out, it explains a lot


--------------------

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: ntrdmnsnl]
    #9934830 -

ya i saw that alrdy...i understand the theory...i wondering where the proof is

also going kinda off the original topic (its my thread anyway :tongue: )....does anyone know of proof of string theory....another theory i find intriging....im just trying to put a "grain of salt" on all these awesome ideas...make sure they arent just 100% hypothetical

also, are these theories conflicting? or would the holographic universe be "compatable" with string theory?


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: teeter]
    #9935568 -

They are 100% hypothetical.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9939635 -

ugh....cant wait for some proof of this shit....these theories 100% make sense and are so much more valuable to us than understanding neutron stars and supernovas....

guess its the waiting game


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: teeter]
    #9940395 -

>and are so much more valuable to us than understanding neutron stars and supernovas....

Why?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: teeter]
    #9940664 -

Just because a hypothesis makes sense doesnt mean its true.  The universe need not conform to our intuition.  Beware your confirmation bias.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: zouden]
    #9940694 -

zouden said:
>and are so much more valuable to us than understanding neutron stars and supernovas....

Why?


Well, I would agree that neutron stars and supernovas are interesting, but black holes and cosmology is even more interesting.

Of course string theory, or another theory of everything, can give us a lot more understanding than a supernova.

Quantum mechanics and general relativity cannot explain black holes.

They can explain supernovas and neutron stars.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9940728 -

I was more referring to the 'holographic universe' theory. I can't see how that could be more valuable than understanding neutron stars and supernovae (or black holes).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: zouden]
    #9940758 -

zouden said:
I was more referring to the 'holographic universe' theory. I can't see how that could be more valuable than understanding neutron stars and supernovae (or black holes).


Well, the holographic principle is related to black holes and string theory.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9940772 -

Quote:
Quantum mechanics and general relativity cannot explain black holes.


Then explain how black holes were predicted by GR long before they were observed.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9940783 -

Qubit said:
Then explain how black holes were predicted by GR long before they were observed.


Doesn't matter. General relativity and quantum mechanics give different answers about what is inside of a black hole, so they cannot both be true.

And there is even more proof for quantum mechanics than there is for general relativity.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9940819 -

Zanthius said:
zouden said:
I was more referring to the 'holographic universe' theory. I can't see how that could be more valuable than understanding neutron stars and supernovae (or black holes).


Well, the holographic principle is related to black holes and string theory.


Okay, I see it now. Thanks :smile:

Then it's nonsensical to say this is 'more valuable than understanding neutron stars and supernovas' because it's all part of the same greater theory.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: zouden]
    #9941520 -

okay, so what is so valuable about "understanding neutron stars and supernovas"?

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9942284 -

Zanthius said:
Doesn't matter. General relativity and quantum mechanics give different answers about what is inside of a black hole, so they cannot both be true.

And there is even more proof for quantum mechanics than there is for general relativity.



What different answers do they give?

Honestly, I think you are talking out of your ass :tongue:  "More proof for quantum mechanics than general relativity", what does that even mean?  They are just models that apply to different regimes.

(although I think we are able to make more precise measurements of quantum theory than relativity, if thats what you meant)

Edited by Qubit (03/09/09 09:10 PM)

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9942387 -

bradley said:
okay, so what is so valuable about "understanding neutron stars and supernovas"?


People are always raggin on pure research on how the universe works.  "Whats the point" they often say... Yet, for some reason other endeavors with no 'point' are not scrutinized (art, music, etc.).  Why cant science be like art, where the value comes from the perspective and wisdom that comes out of it.

(to answer your question more directly, the 'value' in pure research is often reaped by future generation; just as we reap the benefit of previous research into things like electricity and chemistry that didnt seem to have much value back in the day.)

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9942647 -

I wasn't dissing pure research, but zouden implied there was something especially valuable in understanding neutron stars and supernovas. Are you implying he was using "neutron stars and supernovas" as a synonym for pure research?

At that, what the hell is "pure"? Pure research my ass. You can bet there is a strong motive behind anything that uses billions of dollars. Maybe to solve silly theological questions.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9942827 -

ehhh... dont mind me.  Im half drunk and crankey :crankey:

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9942853 -

bradley said:
okay, so what is so valuable about "understanding neutron stars and supernovas"?


Perhaps it is the things you need to understand in order to understand neutron stars and supernovas...


--------------------

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9942861 -

Qubit said:
bradley said:
okay, so what is so valuable about "understanding neutron stars and supernovas"?


People are always raggin on pure research on how the universe works.  "Whats the point" they often say... Yet, for some reason other endeavors with no 'point' are not scrutinized (art, music, etc.).  Why cant science be like art, where the value comes from the perspective and wisdom that comes out of it.

(to answer your question more directly, the 'value' in pure research is often reaped by future generation; just as we reap the benefit of previous research into things like electricity and chemistry that didnt seem to have much value back in the day.)


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ thats why

or the lack of it

when it comes to passionate, sincere science


--------------------

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9943727 -

bradley said:
I wasn't dissing pure research, but zouden implied there was something especially valuable in understanding neutron stars and supernovas. Are you implying he was using "neutron stars and supernovas" as a synonym for pure research?

At that, what the hell is "pure"? Pure research my ass. You can bet there is a strong motive behind anything that uses billions of dollars. Maybe to solve silly theological questions.


'Pure' research is also known as basic research, as opposed to applied research. The holographic universe theory is basic research, alongside other aspects of cosmology such as supernovae, black holes and neutron stars. You can't dismiss one type of basic research while praising another; the whole point of basic research is it's science for science's sake: we don't know what will come out of it. Besides, without our knowledge of cosmology we wouldn't even have the holographic universe theory, so it would be quite hypocritical to say it's more important than neutron stars and supernovae.

There's nothing particularly special about neutron stars and supernovae, but there's nothing particularly special about the holographic universe theory either.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9943946 -

Qubit said:
What different answers do they give?



General relativity predicts singularities inside of black holes, while theories of quantum gravity predict black holes without singularities.

Black Hole - Singularity

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: zouden]
    #9944618 -

i see

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9946557 -

Zanthius said:
while theories of quantum gravity predict black holes without singularities.



Got any links for this?

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9946750 -

Qubit said:
Got any links for this?


Didn't I just give you a link?

Quantum Gravity - Points of tension.

Quote:
First, classical general relativity breaks down at singularities, and quantum mechanics becomes inconsistent with general relativity in the neighborhood of singularities


General Relativity - What is a singularity?

Quote:
In effect singularities are unphysical and indicate the breakdown of the theory.


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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9947531 -

defiantly a lot of math there.


--------------------
GROWIN IN NUMBERS...

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9947555 -

I still dont see any theory of quantum gravity that reconciles singularities in black holes.  I dont think such a thing/theory exists.  When and if it does get invented it will be a big deal.

Thats my take on it.  I know alot of people have faith in string theory though.  :shrug:

Thx for humoring me though.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9949511 -

Qubit said:
I still dont see any theory of quantum gravity that reconciles singularities in black holes.  I dont think such a thing/theory exists.  When and if it does get invented it will be a big deal.


That is exactly why I think quantum gravity and black holes are more interesting than white dwarfs and neutron stars. You must have a consistent theory of quantum gravity in order to explain black holes, as the small world of quantum physics and the large world of general relativity is completely united inside of a black hole.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Zanthius]
    #9949990 -

The fact that holograms work is in itself miraculous and proves that the universe (light) is holographic, in a sense.

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Re: Proof of Holographic Universe? [Re: Middleman]
    #9953924 -

sorry i havent been on these forums in like three days to clear this up....by saying that a theory of everything candidate like string theory is more important than supernovas i was mainly stating an opinion....but logically when u think about it, the discovery of how a supernova works, never will be as highly regarded as the discovery of a theory of everything (which btw refers to unifying quantum and general relativity)....it just (presumably) has less applications and wont be as big a deal....im not down talking ppl who study that, im just saying its not as big a deal


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overlay was very profound." - Ram Das

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