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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Cause [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9659581 -

TreeMoss said:
Shoot a gun at something........you will clearly see what happened...or wreck a car......once again quite clear.


No, you are observing chronology, not causation.

Quote:
Or have equipment that can see for you and you can interpret data (see) causation.


That's exactly the point.  Causation is interpreted, not observed.


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659628 -

cau·sa·tion Listen to the pronunciation of causation
Pronunciation:
    \kȯ-ˈzā-shən\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1615

1 a: the act or process of causing b: the act or agency which produces an effect


You smoke weed, you get high.........it's a cause, you can see it and experience it.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659664 -

Silversoul said:
learningtofly said:
OP are you seriously trying to argue that "cause and effect" does not exist? :kingtard:


Hume successfully argued that it can't be observed.


He never said it didn't exist and he never attempted to refute it. He just wanted to figure out where we got it from.


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Re: Cause [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9659695 -

TreeMoss said:
cau·sa·tion Listen to the pronunciation of causation
Pronunciation:
    \kȯ-ˈzā-shən\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1615

1 a: the act or process of causing b: the act or agency which produces an effect


You smoke weed, you get high.........it's a cause, you can see it and experience it.


You're simply backing up my point.  I can observe myself smoking weed, and I can observe myself getting high.  I do this repeatedly and draw a pattern: smoking weed --> getting high.  But that is an inference, not on observation.

Suppose, on the other hand, that after ingesting LSD, I eat a ham sandwich.  After eating that sandwich, I start tripping.  Did I just observe the hallucinatory effects of the ham sandwich?


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659727 -

Silversoul are you denying the existence of cause and effect or saying that we can't with 100% certainty say what causes what?


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Re: Cause [Re: learningtofly]
    #9659738 -

I am merely affirming Hume's point that causation is inferred, not observed.


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659743 -

EDIT: Good, the former would just be ridiculous.


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Edited by learningtofly (01/22/09 05:43 PM)

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Re: Cause [Re: learningtofly]
    #9659749 -

learningtofly said:
We already know that...


Perhaps you do.  Some people in this thread apparently don't.


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659783 -

I simply find it hard to grasp that causation does not occur.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Cause [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9659813 -

TreeMoss said:
I simply find it hard to grasp that causation does not occur.


I'm not saying it doesn't.  I'm saying it's unobservable.


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Re: Cause [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9659817 -

I simply find it hard to grasp that causation does not occur.

It has been clarified this is not what is being discussed, we are discussing the observation of causation, not the existence.


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Cause [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9659819 -

:lol:

Its pointless to argue it. If there were no causes, things would occur spontaneously. Which is why there is no original god :P Monotheists would have to totally disregard time, motion and change because that is the opposite of what god represents.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9661166 -

Silversoul said:
TreeMoss said:
I simply find it hard to grasp that causation does not occur.


I'm not saying it doesn't.  I'm saying it's unobservable.


Sorry about the mess.  I was just wondering where the "chronology" of my statement would take the thread. :wink:  :grin:


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Re: Cause [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9661374 -

This thread has raised some good topics for me to adress thankfully. A lot of misunderstanding here comes from the fact that a lot of people learn about 'cause and effect' and when they hear someone denying the existance of cause and effect outside of an observer's mind, that what is being denied is the functioning of the universe.

Let us first scrap that horrible misconception. Denying that cause is real does not suggest in any way that the universe does not work according to the laws of science.

let me take a pause on this string of thinking and ask someone to bring forth a good example where 'cause' and 'effect' is a crucial part of any science, and I will attempt to show that it is unnecessary but highly useful to posit 'cause' and 'effect'.




As for the argument 'cause and effect exists but we can never really work out what is causing what'
well one of my arguments is that cause and effect is a perceptual phenomenon of a human witnessing some orderly change/consistency in the universe. Depending on what the human knew, they would see different things as cause and different things as effect.

Eg. a puppet with a hammer would appear to be controlling the hammer, causing it to hit the other puppet. but when you learn that the puppet is an extension of the puppeteer then you learn that it is the puppeteer that is causing the hammer to hit the other puppet. then you might find out that the puppeteer is not fully conscious and has an amazing ability to learn sequences of puppet moves and actually just repeats whatever is shown to them at the start of the evening. It turns out that the root cause of the hammer hitting is the puppet-master who layed out the show at the start of the evening to the puppeteer. Well at any rate eventually you might find out that the puppet master only ever reads his stories from other people.

what trully caused the hammer to hit the other puppet?
was it the connection o the hamemr to the moving string above the puppet? was it the puppeteer? was it the puppet master? was it the story teller who informed him?
or perhaps each of them all contributed to the situation.. and the more you learn about the world, the more you will see that everything was 'caused' by something else to a certain degree.

when you know everything, nothing could be seen to cause anything else unless you ended up finding God or something similar. Everything would follow from something else and lead into something new. Every place from whence the universe was, was once a place that it was to become.

Cause and effect is only ever in what we percieve and it can never be percieved if one knows everything, and thus, it does not trully exist except in our human methods of dealing with our very small portions of the universe.


There is no 'cause and effect' in shooting a bullet at someone because you are immediately talking as if you yourself are free from cause and effect. otherwise, the shooting of the gun is merely an effect of some other cause.. and the line of cause and effect will go on forever in every direction until it reaches the source of all things (or alternatively, it would go on forever and fill all of space with infinite direction of cause and effect.. no cause and effect would actually exist because when you have done this, you would be unable to draw a line around any 'event' and call it the 'effect' or some other 'event'.. the cause and effect lines that really connect the two events would be related intimately with so many other events and into so many others that our distinction of two two original events is tortally arbitrary and our assertion that one caused the other would be a matter of efficiency, ignoring the infinite other causal relationships that occur that we simply cannot include in our calculations and dont want to know about



and another note, on redgreenvines post about my talk of evolution.. well when we talk about an evolving species, we have the species it developed from, and the species it is at the end, and in between will be a mix-species with a variety of genes and a variety of life-struggles.
what word can you give to describe the group of animals that were the progeny of the earlier species and the ancestor of the latter species?
i simply call it the 'evolving apes'
bad technicality, i agree, but what is a better term?


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9661417 -

causation is like flow
like the building of pressures and direction of energies

I am not sure why so many words

the effect is also flow - ongoing flow of causation.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Cause [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9661539 -

I do imagine the universe as a flow, a constant exchange of energy.. but a flow of cause? seems overly romanticised beyond the limit of any practical definition of 'cause'. It is not like cause 'flows' through the universe.. it is more like the whole universe is constantly flowing with causation.. but the ocean is so complex that we can never isolate with any 'bundle' of causes and link them directly with some other 'bundle' of effects.. the flow is constant and as diverse as the most diverse level of the universe. all it is though, is the orderly exchange of energy.
there is no 'cause' and 'effect' in the same way there is no 'red' and 'blue' in the universe.
there is merely an infinite spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. but we still take our notions of colour very seriously because we will always experience them and everyone else will experience them so they are still part of our lives.

but not part of the world devorced from consciousness

as well as this, but our experience of them depends on our pre-existing mental context which is why colours cant be said to exist outside (eg light containing majority red light may seem green if previously exposed to light containing even more intense red) or else almost all colours would exist simultaneously in most situations since at any one time, such a group of electromagnetic waves might be percieved as any colour pecievable by a conscious being

similarly, any cause or effect is really some other cause or effect of some other system when looked at in the right way

since every effect is a cause and every cause an effect, effect and cause become intimately linked in a PERCEPTION of the universe, binding the start and end point of an event's 'important' (another perceptual unit) energy flow


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9661640 -

i am certain you are trying to hard to make it mean something besides what it is.
i.e. "the cause", that is romanticism, maybe even anthropomorphism.

causes only crystallize out of flow for a moment, and then become subsumed in effect, or transformation.

effect also becomes absorbed in the ongoing transformations


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Cause [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9661679 -

Noteworthy, I submit to you quantum physics which does have randomness to it... which in turn screws with your idea of cause and effect.


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Re: Cause [Re: learningtofly]
    #9661842 -

quantum physics does not at any point suggest randomness exists in the universe. science is only ever a matter of modelling the universe. if there is randomness in our models then so be it, but there will always be randomness at the point where we can no longer calculate certainty.

and redgreenvines, es 'cause' is a romanticism.. part of the point of this thread.. but I think that the point of romanticism is that it can keep drawing out new analogies to address certain aspects of a topic. And so perhaps giving a 'flow' as an alternative metaphor to 'enactors' may have a point. however I dont think that one should hold onto concepts 'cause and effect'  in a universal ontology when they are used to draw lines in what should be an undissectable flow

And although this is all we CAN do.. it does not mean that the universe CAN be truly dissected


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9662448 -

Hm. Cause and effect is funny.

I read Ramachandran's book "A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness" and was surprised at some of his findings.

In one experiment a person was told to look at a screen detailing his own EEG, and to wiggle a finger within a 10 minute period whenever ready. Researchers found out that the EEG would light up a whole three-quarters of a second before the actual finger wiggle. This phenomenon has been dubbed "readiness potential."

This can be thrown into the conversation about causality, and has implications on free will.


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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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