Home | Community | Message Board


Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Mankind, a result of brain damage ?
    #2915194 - 07/22/04 10:24 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

From Herald Sun
Quote:

  Monkey walks on two legs
From correspondents in Jerusalem
22jul04


A YOUNG monkey at an Israeli zoo has started walking like a human following a near death experience, the zoo's veterinarian said today.

Natasha, a small five-year-old black macaque monkey at the Safari Park next to Tel Aviv, began walking exclusively upright on two legs after a stomach ailment nearly killed her, zookeepers said.

Monkeys usually alternate between upright movement and walking on all fours. A picture in the Maariv daily on Wednesday showed Natasha standing ramrod straight like a human. The picture was labelled humorously: The Missing Link?

Two weeks ago, Natasha and three other monkeys were diagnosed with severe stomach flu. At the zoo clinic, she slipped into critical condition, veterinarian Igal Horowitz said.

"I was sure that she was going to die," he said. "She could hardly breathe, and her heart was not functioning properly."

After intensive treatment, Natasha's condition stabilised, but she exhibited strange behaviour, and a day after was released from the clinic, she began walking erect like a human being.

"I've never seen or heard of this before," said Mr Horowitz. One possible explanation is brain damage from the illness, he said.

Besides her evolutionarily advanced method of movement, Mr Horowitz said, Natasha's behaviour had returned to normal. 




Now, besides the possibility this event is due to brain damage, there is a disturbing thought about the knowledge probably acquired during this monkey near death experience or NDE. What i find most important is the fact this same event was one of the most relevant evolutions on mankind. When man became a biped, he lost four flexible feet but gained two extremely specialized hands, through a feet-hands-brain dialectics, our ancestors developed more tools and more knowledge was aquired, making this process the snowball we know today.

Is this knowledge acquired or just simple brain damage ?
If it's knowledge acquired, how does it fit the NDE ?
If it isn't knowledge acquired, can brain damage be considered a tool in this whole process or just a random and lucky event ?
Are we lucky to be here ? :smile:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2915290 - 07/22/04 11:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

kool story

"Is this knowledge acquired or just simple brain damage ?
If it's knowledge acquired, how does it fit the NDE ?
If it isn't knowledge acquired, can brain damage be considered a tool in this whole process or just a random and lucky event ?
Are we lucky to be here ?"


probably all of it.

Is luck just the physical manifestation of something spiritually certain? ie - it's only seen as luck because we didn't know it was always definitely going to happen.

If brain damage got me here - well great. I haven't got a complex about being dumb.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2915387 - 07/22/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think Lamark's theory of aquired characteristics was dismissed some time ago. Evolution is a process of genetic selection so unless the NDE actually changed the monkeys genetic code allowing their offspring to walk in a bipedal fashion it is really meaningless. For example you could get brain damage and be reduced to crawling on all fours, however it would be difficult to then make a causal connection saying that the NDE you had caused you to evolve. You are reading into this way too much


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: DeepDish]
    #2915553 - 07/22/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Evolution is a process of genetic selection




That's incomplete. In the case of Man, it's a also a process of cultural expression, but not only man, it seems it also happens with monkeys. Here,

Quote:

The Hundredth Monkey
Researched by James Gregory

Most people are familiar with the story of "The Hundredth Monkey." Lyall Watson first told it in "Lifetide," but its most widely-known version is in the book "The Hundredth Monkey" by Ken Keyes. For those of you who don't know it, the story goes like this: The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, had been observed in the wild for a period of over 30 years. One of their favorite foods was the sweet potato. In 1952, an 18-month-old female named Imo on the island of Koshima found she could solve the annoying problem of sand on her potatoes by washing them before eating them. She taught this trick to her mother. Her playmates also learned this new way from her and they taught their mothers. Before the eyes of the scientists, this cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various monkeys, and by 1958 all of the young monkeys on the island had learned to wash sandy sweet potatoes to make them more palatable. In the autumn of 1958, a critical number of Koshima monkeys, estimated at 99, were washing sweet potatoes, and on the day that the hundredth monkey learned to wash potatoes, something startling took place -- the habit of washing sweet potatoes jumped over the sea and instantly colonies of monkeys on other islands and on the mainland began washing their sweet potatoes as well!

Elaine Myers, a writer living in Washington State and a regular contributer to IN CONTEXT MAGAZINE, found the premise -- that an ideological breakthrough occurs when enough individuals in a population adopt a new idea or behavior allowing this new awareness to be communicated directly from mind to mind without the connection of external experience -- to be very appealing and believable. The concept of Jung's collective unconscious, and the biologists' morphogenetic fields offer parallel stories that help strengthen this strand of our imaginations. The more widespread these fields are, the greater their influence on the physical level of reality. We sometimes refer to the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon (HMP) when we need supporting evidence of the possibility of an optimistic scenario for the future, such as a future based on peace instead of war -- if enough of us would just think the right thoughts.

However, when Myers went back to the original research cited by Watson, she did not find the same story that he tells. Where he claims to have had to improvise details, the reports are quite precise, and they do not support the "ideological breakthrough" phenomenon. At first, she was disappointed; but as she delved deeper into the research, she found a growing appreciation for the lessons the real story of these monkeys have for us.

Up until 1958, Keyes' description follows the research quite closely, although not all the young monkeys in the troop learned to wash the potatoes. By March, 1958, 15 of the 19 young monkeys (aged two to seven years) and 2 of the 11 adults were washing sweet potatoes. Up to this time, the propagation of the innovative behavior was on an individual basis, along family lines and playmate relationships. Most of the young monkeys began to wash their potatoes when they were one to two and a half years old. Males older than 4 years, who had little contact with the young monkeys, did not acquire the behavior.

By 1959, sweet potato washing was no longer a new behavior to the group. Monkeys that had acquired the behavior as juveniles were growing up and having their own babies. This new generation of babies learned sweet potato washing behavior through the normal cultural pattern of the young imitating their mothers. By January 1962, almost all the monkeys on Koshima Island, except those adults born before 1950, were observed to be washing their sweet potatoes. If an individual monkey had not started to wash sweet potatoes by the time he was an adult, he was unlikely to learn it later, regardless of how widespread it became among the younger members of the troop.

In the original reports, there was no mention of the group passing a critical threshold that resulted in the idea being imparted to the entire troop. The older monkeys remained steadfastly ignorant of the new behavior. Likewise, there was no mention of widespread sweet potato washing in other monkey troops. There was mention of occasional sweet potato washing by individual monkeys in other troops, but Myers thinks there are other simpler explanations for such occurrences -- if there was an Imo in one troop, there could be Imo-like monkeys in other troops.

Instead of an example of the spontaneous transmission of ideas, Myers thinks the story of the Japanese monkeys is a good example of the propagation of a paradigm shift, as in Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." Truly innovative points of view tend to come from those on the edge between youth and adulthood. The older generation continues to cling to the world view they grew up with. The new idea does not become universal until the older generation withdraws from power, and a younger generation matures within the new point of view. It is also an example of the way that simple innovations can lead to extensive cultural change. By using water in connection with their food, the Koshima monkeys began to exploit the sea as a resource in their environment. Sweet potato washing led to wheat washing, and then to bathing behavior and swimming, and the utilization of sea plants and animals for food.

What does this say about morphogenetic fields and the collective unconscious? Not very much. There may well be a "critical mass" required to shift a new behavior from a fragile personal idiosyncrasy to being a well-established alternative, but creating a new alternative does not automatically displace older alternatives. It just provides more choices. What the research does suggest, however, is that positive ideas are not sufficient by themselves to change the world. We still need direct communication between individuals, we need to translate our ideas into action, and we need to recognize the freedom of choice of those who choose alternatives different from our own.

(Sources: Elaine Myers, IN CONTEXT, Spring/85; Markus P?ssel and Ron Amundson, SKEPTICAL INQUIRER, May-June/96) 




This is really monkey business, huh :wink: ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: DeepDish]
    #2915595 - 07/22/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

you could get brain damage and be reduced to crawling on all fours, however it would be difficult to then make a causal connection saying that the NDE you had caused you to evolve

Of course. That would be a downgrade of ability.
That is not what we are talking about here.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2915640 - 07/22/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for posting that, MAIA. I have never read a report of an animal NDE before.  :ooo:

I have read many human NDE cases, and it's interesting that the monkey shared the trait many NDE'rs have after their experience..some type of upgrade in their abilities. I believe in the spirit realm and this is consistent with reporting back to headquarters, getting a tuneup, and coming back.

I wonder if the monkey will now be persecuted and face monkey justice.
I hope not.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2915983 - 07/22/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe it wasn't a stomach ailment, perhaps they ate some mushrooms.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,748
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2916673 - 07/22/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

He got enlightened while on NDE. Now he has to show us something :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2916737 - 07/22/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe he reached enlightenment for monkeys, not humans.
Maybe he will attract monkey disciples and lead them to Dr.Moreau.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,748
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: Jellric]
    #2916862 - 07/22/04 06:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: Perhaps monkey-enlightenment is more profound than human-profanism :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2916924 - 07/22/04 06:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Ive had brain damage in my life... maybe thats why im so "weird" *lol* :laugh:

Maybe it opens up doorways... and shuts others off... Were like a really dense box of "magic surprise" shake us up enough... or the right way... you may get something really... "interesting" /


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePanoramix
Getafix
Male

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: DeepDish]
    #2919048 - 07/23/04 03:02 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Evolution is a process of genetic selection so unless the NDE actually changed the monkeys genetic code allowing their children to walk in a bipedal fashion..."

Provided her children are physically equipped to walk upright (and given that she seems to be, it'd follow that they would) then it becomes a simple matter of her imprinting the behavior on her kids. I guess it depends how advantageous it is for their lifestyle, too. For no particular reason I think that the mother would have a hard time teaching any other monkeys to walk upright for extended periods of time unless it was evident that she was benifting (i.e. getting access to different resources or...)

Just had a thought! Apparently one of the reasons walking upright regularly may have been useful for early man is because it places the neck significantly higher from the ground and makes the hamstrings somewhat less susceptably positioned. According to some, having your head higher from the ground basically makes it so that from a quadrupedic predators perspective, you represent a much larger and more formitable foe. This is why in spite of a somewhat-smaller-to-comperable bodymass and superior strength and natural weaponry, animals like hyenas and smaller lions, tigers and those sorts of things won't attack a human in a one-on-one confrontation. Or this is what I hear. Support of this is that most of the tiger attacksthat result in fatality that do happen happen in the early morning to rubber tappers and crop pickers who are bent over or hunched down to work, making their neck much more vulnerable. If a predator can't get a clear killing shot in on your throat, a lot of 'em won't try.

So maybe this is one hell of an advantage for this monkey and her offspring if she can manage to teach it to any children she has (or may yet have, or any other monkeys who might teach their kids, though I guess that's less likely) evolutionarily speaking. I'd like to see a population of upright walking monkeys spontaeniously pop up. Great post Maia, in fact, that tidbit of information just made my day! Granted it's only 4:00ish here, so their hasn't been a lot of day yet to make...


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2919416 - 07/23/04 05:48 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So maybe this is one hell of an advantage for this monkey and her offspring if she can manage to teach it to any children she has




That's part of the concept of culture. It was thought only Man could do this.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleClean
the lense
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,364
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2919537 - 07/23/04 08:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

that monkey tripped the fuck out on DMT and decided to evolve.
get ready for Planet Of The Macaques!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2920018 - 07/23/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You neglect the massive differences in skeletal anatomy between humans and monkeys. Monkeys, as shown in the article, are perfectly capable of walking around in a bipedal manner, yet they do not do so in nature. Nor is their any evidence in observed populations of bipedal imprinting. The change from a quadrapedal adapted skeleton to a bipedal adapted skeleton was something that took numerous generations and there are many hypotheses for this change . While I guess it may be technically possible for a brain damaged monkey to imprint this behavior, it is a hypothesis that rests on huge assumptions. There is no evidence that this monkey has any sort of increased fitness. Also evolution is not a linear path. A bipedal monkey is more "evolved" and a quadrepedal human is less "evolved" is an incorrect statment.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedNucleus
Causal Observer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 4,074
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 9 days, 6 hours
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2922847 - 07/24/04 04:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i think it more likely is correlated with the pain of the stomach disorder being relieved by walking in an upright manner, and the monkey did not become any more human or have any great illuminating revelations. But I won't deny the possibility.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMerlinBurb
newbie
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 45
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Mankind, a result of brain damage ? [Re: MAIA]
    #2922877 - 07/24/04 05:19 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Note: I did not read but a few other replys to the main thread, and started writing what was coming out of my head into notepad. Copy/Pasted:

IS knowledge the result of braind Damage?

At first glance this question seems quite obsurd- look at what we, as humans have accomplished. We have cured desieses, firgured out small portions of the universe (mathematics, chemestry, etc.).

However, maybe it was. You can also view our "progress" as no progress at all. We have completely disrupted the natual cycle of the world (animals, plants, climate, etc). Killed millions of insects, animals- including humans. Perhaps a good argument isthat we can think philisophically. Well thats not a very good thing. While thinking is a great aspect of life, and enables people to think to the outskirts of imagination, but where does it get us? Unless our civilization lives on forever, which seems unlikely, then all that thought got nowhere.

But other animals dont think like we do, the just live. Is that any better or worse and the kind of thinking we do? Perhaps not, given that same outcome of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Brain Damage and the Higher Self Catalysis 1,147 13 05/01/06 10:56 PM
by monamine
* OBEs = Brain Misfiring?
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 3,369 39 09/24/02 11:33 AM
by Albino_Jesus
* Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
OrgoneConclusion 8,282 130 01/24/09 06:24 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* READ THIS BEFORE THEY DELETE IT
( 1 2 3 all )
trypyamine 2,920 54 07/27/03 10:05 AM
by Quadrant6
* All in the brain gettinjiggywithit 1,277 16 06/03/05 10:10 AM
by redgreenvines
* This Is Your Brain on God - Michael Persinger has a vision - the Almighty isn't dead, he's an energy Divinorum 1,255 3 09/23/09 10:48 PM
by explosiveoxygen
* Brain Death & Sense of Time
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 2,731 38 01/21/03 06:34 PM
by Sclorch
* Outwitting small-brained creatures
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 1,733 53 04/09/09 06:01 PM
by OrgoneConclusion

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,007 topic views. 4 members, 8 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Kraken Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.11 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 14 queries.