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Cause
    #9655601 -

in the 'objective world' there is no such thing as a cause. When we observe some evidence of energy exchange through the universe, or essentially when we observe any change to the universe, depending on how important the thing is that changed, our brain will try to work out what caused the change to have occured.

now when we consider the successful trait of understanding the 'causes' for an evolving species of ape, the vast majority of understandable and observable changes in the universe were indeed changes 'caused' more or less directly by some knowable being/person.

In order to get a grip of 'why' things change, the human brain utilised its social meta-layer to tag every change to a cause, or an 'instigator'. this resultantly was the begginings of spirituality, for this metalayer of generating instigators developed in line with human awareness shift on consciousness and identity. With these facets of human thought, all changes in the universe resultantly befome associated with some sort of social tag and these social tags become personalised depending on whether they are multifaceted or not.

However, the lines of cause are not as simple as what causes what. We have a notion of successing moments being single compressable events, and depending on how well someone understands the laws of nature, will result in grander and grander scales of compressability.

eg when we use science to describe the universe, we are merely compressing a range of changes int eh universe into single events that can be described with numbers.

In practice, we never really do this unless highly experienced in your domain. Science has a lot of rules for observation and consistency.

real life aint like that, and in real life almost all events get linked back to some instigator, some person or group of people. When things move around in the environment, the human brain tries to assess who the instigator is. It tries to dissociate environmental forces (which are identified as spirits or gods) from visible, knowable instigators such as animals and other people.

this system for percieving instigation is highly complex.. it it involves discerning who is in control of what..

Now, the reason why there arent actually any causes is... well if you knew all of the laws of nature then you would be able to compress all of reality into a single event.. if you knew what the formula was for the universe, as well as how it becomes instantiated in such a vibrant way as to house infinite consciousness, then you would be able to remove cause all together from the ontology.

however when you are dealing with a world that you cannot completely comprehend.. it becomes highly efficient to simply assume that persons have free will.. because although their will is actually determinable according to outside forces across their whole life, no one will ever be able to get a hold on these factors and use them to determine the world or compress an event into appropriate factors.

Because of this efficiency, our human brains are the result of the surviving humans who happened upon this efficiency and bred together many times. These surviving humans did not have to worry about concepts of higher science and the sorts of questions that you can only reach when you have a third world country or some sort of poverty supporting your economy.

What WAS the most important thing to hold in the brain is an understanding of which humans are in control and how much of their action is predictable verses creative. IE - assessing the instigators of change (or consistency where you would expect change, eg guards standing still suggests that they are not going to personally reason with you but instead are following some other person's will)

There is a resonance of this efficiency in our current way of thinking.

we still think about the universe in terms of 'cause'.. because essentially we can never actually learn enough about the world to compress all of its events.. we have to deal with the universe efficiently and assume different levels of independent will.

Thus we have two main factors of 'cause'

we have an identification of where a string of moments/ an event began, which is considered an instigator.

The instigator may vary in level of creative thought.

Divine instigation is both highly creative (unpredictable) and shows itself through many events.

This to me is shown all across humanity.

For the ancient greeks, creativity occured when the gods inspired humans.

for many empires and kingdoms, the leader, the supreme ruler, was considered god-like.

In animistic cultures, such as japanese and north american, warriors were considered to have divine, further permeating spirits

We will never know everything about the universe so there will always be things for people to see divinity in.

As well as this, our human brains as a whole will not give up on this notion of cause and of things causing other things to happen.. to science all it seem to be is an orderly flow of energy throughout the universe, and the evidence that we get from the changes that occur according to the energy transfer.. but the majority of science does not provide a great survival advantage when in human-controlled environments, and you need to quickly assess which humans are most associated with different aspects of change (or controlled consistency)


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9655920 -

Quote:
in the 'objective world' there is no such thing as a cause



And thus physics is bullshit, electrical engineering is nonsense, and computers do not work.

Would you like some Biggee fries with your order?


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Re: Cause [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9655982 -

Those things do not require 'cause', they simply work with laws of change given certain states of the universe


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9656038 -

There is nothing quite as boring as semantic games. :yawn:


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Re: Cause [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9656138 -

OP are you seriously trying to argue that "cause and effect" does not exist? :kingtard:


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Re: Cause [Re: learningtofly]
    #9656144 -

learningtofly said:
OP are you seriously trying to argue that "cause and effect" does not exist? :kingtard:



Hume successfully argued that it can't be observed.


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9656203 -

Go on, i.e. continue.


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Re: Cause [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9656436 -

Quote:
In order to get a grip of 'why' things change, the human brain utilised its social meta-layer to tag every change to a cause, or an 'instigator'. this resultantly was the begginings of spirituality,



To me this sentence is vague. Can you please clarify.


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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9656464 -

Silversoul said:
Hume successfully argued that it can't be observed.



I believe he was only demonstrating we should not commit the post-hope fallacy - "after this, therefore because of this" - that we should be skeptical in believing we know the actual cause of something and should apply a 'probability quotient' (a term he coined, which leads me to believe he was not attempting to destroy causality) to determine if what we believe is the cause of a phenomena in fact most probably is.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/22/09 01:17 AM)

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Re: Cause [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9656553 -

AnxietyDrive said:
Quote:
In order to get a grip of 'why' things change, the human brain utilised its social meta-layer to tag every change to a cause, or an 'instigator'. this resultantly was the begginings of spirituality,



To me this sentence is vague. Can you please clarify.



Well if every change is considered to be instigated, and then all the instigations united under some sort of personalised interpretation, you have spirituality right there.. looking at the root meaning of it all.. meaning being a way of comprehending why some instigation is associated with a certain instigator.

Almost all spirituality deals with the spirits in the world and their interests, from the spirits in beings to the 'spirit's of the rest of the universe

the meta-layer I refer to is the faculty of mamalian mind to identify the most likely instigators of certain change in the environment. An animal can not comprehend the consciousness behind things like the weather or the ocean.. but humans have conceptual representations that they can use to think about the consciousness of nature and thus develop spirituality as a means of learning and communicating methods for coming to grips with one's place amidst all of the other instigations in the universe. Whether it be compared to God or compared to innumerable natural spirits, or compared to an array of god-avatars, or compared to some faceless infinite natural force that we assumedly feel as though we can compress into a single phenomenon/event, our meaning in the universe ultimately must relate somehow to all of the existing meaning in the universe.. which for almost all spiritualities is generated by 'spirits' or 'gods' (same thing really, just with different scopes of power) which are representations of some abstract calculation of instigation


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9657356 -

Thank you, interesting read. 
I'll have to come back to this after class
when I have some time to wrastle with it.
Ever heard Cause = Time?


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks

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Re: Cause [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9657515 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Go on, i.e. continue.



His argument is that we can only observe chronology.  We cannot actually observe causation.  We are left to make assumptions about what caused what by connecting certain coincidences of occasions.  For example, when I flip on a light switch and the light goes on, I assume that I caused that.  But it could theoretically be that the light decided to go on at the same that I flipped the switch.  That doesn't mean it's likely, but we can't disprove the possibility.


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you start of by stepping into a leg trap, then you flounder [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9657952 -

Noteworthy said:
...
now when we consider the successful trait of understanding the 'causes' for an evolving species of ape, the vast majority of understandable and observable changes in the universe were indeed changes 'caused' more or less directly by some knowable being/person.
...




in the excised portion of your premise which I quote above, you use the phrase "evolving species (of ape)"

this is worse than indelicate if you are trying to talk about the kind of evolution with which Darwin Mendel and Crick are associated.

a species never actually evolves in this context.
instead it becomes superseded by another (derived) species when non-lethal mutations in the other (derived) species are selected for by the aggregate of conditions of life.

prior to or instead of this evolutionary change, changes such as genetic drift may also occur due to selection, and the species may continue, just appear different.

I am amazed at the variety of interpretations that are projected onto the idea of evolution, and most of them are significantly erroneous.

Species do not evolve into other ones, but they do evolve from other ones; it is always historical and usually the causative conditions can be explored yielding some obvious selective environmental issues in combination with one or more non-lethal mutation.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: you start of by stepping into a leg trap, then you flounder [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9658141 -

Evolution: Swami -> OC


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9658920 -

How can you not observe cause and effect? It does not compute to me at all.

I will admit there are various causes and effects (conditions) to objects with their "creator" not having its origins found in any single of the conditions causing the event of its origination. Plants need soil + water + sunlight. If you provide those 3 basic things a plant will grow when a seed is present, therefore you can say those 3 things are the causes of plant growth. Omitting any one of those three conditions will result in zero plant growth. The concept is called cause and effect (or conditions leading to emergence).

Using the process of plant growth as example, how could you disprove cause and effect?


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: Cause [Re: psyka]
    #9659059 -

psyka said:
How can you not observe cause and effect? It does not compute to me at all.

I will admit there are various causes and effects (conditions) to objects with their "creator" not having its origins found in any single of the conditions causing the event of its origination. Plants need soil + water + sunlight. If you provide those 3 basic things a plant will grow when a seed is present, therefore you can say those 3 things are the causes of plant growth. Omitting any one of those three conditions will result in zero plant growth. The concept is called cause and effect (or conditions leading to emergence).

Using the process of plant growth as example, how could you disprove cause and effect?



We can observe a chronology of events and its repeatability, and find a pattern which we interpret as cause and effect.  But this is not the same as observing it.  In fact, it's a well-known fallacy to mistake correlation with causation.  To correct such fallacies, we can control for certain factors.  But even in the strongest cases, causation is inferred, not observed.


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Re: Cause [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9659080 -

From a timeless perspective your right, cause is not an issue....if your just wanting to experience life.

But knowing how things got the way they do, chemistry; the science of change.........cause if VERY important.

I mean you can't duplicate anything without cause, I mean you can but knowing explains and explanations are good/wise......for some people most of the time......someone is going to wonder why sooner or later about everything perceivable.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659111 -

So what qualifies as observing cause and effect?


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: Cause [Re: psyka]
    #9659477 -

psyka said:
So what qualifies as observing cause and effect?



Nothing.  That's the whole point.  You can't observe causation.  It's unobservable.


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Re: Cause [Re: Silversoul]
    #9659570 -

Yes you can, you can observe causation.

Shoot a gun at something........you will clearly see what happened...or wreck a car......once again quite clear.

Or have equipment that can see for you and you can interpret data (see) causation.

It's just in psychology they say correlation does not mean causality....which is the basis of being a crackpot and hell, humans are full of that and to this very day so many things that are believed to be true violate that very rule.........like lowered serotonin being associated with depression......they really can't say that is a fact and that SSRI's relieve that....although they do for some people for some time.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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