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InvisiblePGF
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Why should the US invade Iraq?
    #902898 - 09/23/02 11:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Here's your chance; all you Kool-Aid kids and brainwashed adults speak your mind, convince me and the other intelligent folks here that the US must invade Iraq.

Please try to provide multi-paragraph explanations. Stringing together seven or eight two syllable words is almost useless.

When possible, use your own personal insights and try not to rely too heavily on the misinformation your president has been feeding your press.



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Anonymous

Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #902978 - 09/23/02 11:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

To drive up the price of oil, this will increase profits for domestic producers of crude. Large oil refineries will hold down the market price of refined products, buying the higher priced crude and temporarily taking a loss which because of their size (and the fact that they are also producers) they will be able to absorb. Small oil refiners will have to pay the higher cost for crude but will not be able to hold down the price of refined products and will be driven out of business. (This happened during Gulf War I when I was working for Chevron Products Company).

To field test the latest military technologies and tactics.

To profit the military-industrial complex.

To gain a compliant regime in another oil rich nation.

To demonstrate to other nation-states the futility of opposing the American Empire and convince them of the wisdom of 'playing ball' the American way.

To distract attention from an increasing totalitarian government at home so the power elite (demopublicans and republicrats) may increase their control over the common man and install new safeguards to effectively deal with political dissent (in the name of fighting 'terrorism').


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: ]
    #903069 - 09/24/02 12:07 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

That sounds correct....


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #903106 - 09/24/02 12:16 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

pretty much

i think the first paragraph is debatable though


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Anonymous

Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: Lallafa]
    #903275 - 09/24/02 01:23 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

i think the first paragraph is debatable though



I know that you are a marxist and I understand that economics is not a subject that comes easily to you so I will try to explain...

If you look at the corporate structure of companies such as Chevron (whom I worked for). The refining or products division is a seperate company from the oil producing company (the division which drills for crude and sells it on the open market).

This is what happened during Gulf War I. The price of refined products DID increase, but not enough to make a profit. The large refineries puposely kept the prices low enough to destroy any profit margin for the small refiners (while recording a loss for themselves as well).

While the crude producers were making money hand over fist, the crude refiners were going into debt (many independants went bankrupt). After the 'shakeout' when crude prices fell, the prices of refined products did not fall as fast. During this period, the surviving refiners were again able to turn a profit which was a larger profit margin than normal, and made up for their losses which occured when crude prices were at their peak. The surving refiners also increased their market share by what was opened up with the demise of the independants.

Now, contrary to your marxist knee-jerk reaction (which I can see brewing in your little socialist head), this is not pure capitalism nor free market economics. This is an excellent example of what happens when too much power is in the hands of the government. This power is available to anyone who is willing to pay for it and attracts those who lust after it. The more power you give to government, the greater possiblity for corruption. The answer is not giving more power to the government as marxists want to do, for this will only increase the temptation and opportunities for corruption.


Edited by Anonymous (09/24/02 12:10 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: ]
    #904203 - 09/24/02 11:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yup..your post summed it up nicely. A very basic view, but I think it's accurate.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #904864 - 09/24/02 04:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Let me explain my position a little more clearly as I am sure I left you with the wrong impression earlier.
Basically I just think that the UN should either enforce its resolutions or rescind them. If the UN is to remain a credible international force it has no choice. Although Iraq has shown a willingness to use WMD as a central part of its military and not as a weapon of last resort, it is certainly not the only threat we face. Israel is considered to be a larger threat and has also disregarded UN resolutions. The only reason that Iraq gets the attention is because he refuses to stay within its boarders and is the self proclaimed protector of the Arab world. Apparently Saudi Arabia doesn't see Iraq as their protector since they asked for US protection just prior to the Gulf War. I doubt Iran wants his protection either. None of this would have even happened if S.H. had stayed in his country and brought any problems (allegations of Kuwait sideways drilling to steal Iraq?s oil) to the UN. S.H. doesn't seem to have a problem using chem/bio weapons. Saddam ordered chemical weapons used against Iraqi Kurds and Iranian forces in the 1980s and killed thousands of people. And Iraq used massive amounts of chemical weapons during the latter part of the Iran - Iraq conflict. That is a fact. Iraq's use of chem weapons during the Iran-Iraq war, coupled with the ever-increasing production capabilities and capacities, indicate the willingness of Iraq's leadership to employ these weapons.

I just think the UN should put up or shut up. We should not take any unilateral action. If nothing is done it is the rest of the Arab world that will suffer the bulk of the consequence not American civilians. Yes oil is an issue but while we may currently be the largest consumer, by 2015 Asia?s developing economy and increasing population will make it the largest consumer and polluter in the world. The best thing we can do is to continue developing alternate energy technologies and moving towards an IT based economy rather than an industrial based economy. The more we decrease our need for fossil fuels, the faster we decrease our interest and involvement in the Middle East. But as of now we rely too much on it to turn our backs. Oil companies definity suck and are a hindrance to our move toward cleaner renewable energy sources. But the move is happening. As hybrid and alternate fuel vehicles become more affordable the market will shift accordingly.

Here is a report worth reading. Not specificaly related to this but an exelent report on global trends. In undertaking this comprehensive analysis, the NIC worked actively with a range of nongovernmental institutions and experts.
Global Trends 2015: A Dialogue About the Future With Nongovernment Experts


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #906193 - 09/25/02 02:37 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Bush has said he will act regardless of
support from other UN nations.

We are in Kuwait; we are at war.


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #906198 - 09/25/02 02:39 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Saddam ordered chemical weapons used against Iraqi Kurds and Iranian forces in the 1980s and killed thousands of people.




That is why we put him in power. We did not like Iran very much in the 80's.

Iran, unlike Iraq, is full of fundamental Islamic extremists,

Iraq is a country of moderate Islamists.



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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #906207 - 09/25/02 02:42 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

The best thing we can do is to continue developing alternate energy technologies and moving towards an IT based economy rather than an industrial based economy.




Your republican representatives who've made their fortunes in the oil business have paid little more than lip service to the idea of alternative energies.

We are in Afghanistan now not to punish some small group of terrorists. We are in Afghanistan so that an oil pipeline can be laid across their country.



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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #906890 - 09/25/02 10:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Bush has said he will act regardless of support from other UN nations.


Not without congressional approval if he knows what is good for him and the republican party.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #906898 - 09/25/02 10:53 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Your republican representatives who've made their fortunes in the oil business have paid little more than lip service to the idea of alternative energies.

Of course not, the public has to create the demand.

We are in Afghanistan now not to punish some small group of terrorists. We are in Afghanistan so that an oil pipeline can be laid across their country.

Where did you get this info from? Is there a verifyable source?

Propaganda wars are waged on both sides. The truth is somewhere in the middle.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #907014 - 09/25/02 12:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Here is a page which presents the arguments for this idea in a concise and amusing conspiracy-theory way. While this page comes off as being extremist, there are some good points presented. On the other side we have this page from BBC. I think the truth probably lies somewhere between these presentations.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #907050 - 09/25/02 12:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

They both basically say the same thing I've said from the very start...It's all about the oil.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #907511 - 09/25/02 04:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

to keep ppls minds off the stock market so that the repoops will win congress.


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Invisiblecdogandursa
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #907962 - 09/25/02 08:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Sadamme insane has weapons of mass destruction but so does the US. So what bla bla bla. YOu people always think of monee running everything. Could it possibly be a ploy to raise his public opinion? The stupids will think that he is a courageous man ridding the world of evil. Aha! The greedy coke monster's plans have been unveiled!

Greed is the root of all evil... not money.

Now a string of 2 syllable words: bush is a dandy leader and a good man. In the land of the free we must keep the world free of bad and evil people. We have to kill people to save others that might not even die. Bark!!!Bark!!!!


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: cdogandursa]
    #908400 - 09/25/02 11:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What will you all say if he is able to change the minds of the other nations and build a coalition? That we have them all so firmly under our thumb that they will agree to anything? That the rest of the world is just that stupid as to be tricked into it?

S.H. is a man who has insecurity issues ( stated by ex Iraqi cabinet members on FOX News) and his military strategy employs chem/bio weapons as a central part of his strategy. This is an important distinction between other countries who have stockpiles. The compare us having this stuff with S.H. having it is a ridiculous and naive thing to do. It is apples and oranges.

If his people thought he was worth a shit 1/3 of his army would not have deserted and given up without a fight. Remember the reporter that had a whole battalion surrender to him? Soldiers don't do that if they are fighting for someone who treats them and the people right. Why is S.H. so afraid of his own republican guard who are supposed to be specifically for his protection? They hate him is why.

Would you turn your back on a murderer while he buys a gun? Or a pedophile who is watching children play at a park?

This world is not like mamas womb where it is all warm and cushy. There are real threats and real bad people. The U.S. has fought for oppressed peoples all over the globe where there is no oil. Our men have died to give freedom to peoples that would have it.

I for one hope that a coalition can be built to destroy S.H.! In a perfect world we would be able to sneak in and do it with a single shot without any more blood spilt but his, but this world is not perfect.




Actually it is perfect in its imperfection but that is a different conversation.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #908655 - 09/26/02 01:18 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

The U.S. has fought for oppressed peoples all over the globe where there is no oil.


Uh huh...and when was the last time that happened?


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: Rono]
    #908829 - 09/26/02 02:13 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

WWII


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OfflineTrOmAn
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Re: Why should the US invade Iraq? [Re: PGF]
    #909098 - 09/26/02 04:47 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

PGF: Because Bush has Intel that would scare the shit outta the sheeple, especially Israel....Saddam has nukes...and directly threatened Israel....Bush takes orders directly from "the chosen people"...get a clue


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