Home | Community | Message Board


Crestline Sales - MycoPath
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineLordMorham
High Lord @Revelstone
Registered: 09/08/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Revelstone
Last seen: 14 years, 27 days
We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY
    #895946 - 09/20/02 03:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Take a look at Iraq's military strength statistics.

I have seen many people claim as a direct result of the sanctions imposed on Iraq since their UNCONDITIONAL surrender back in 91 that a million people have died 1/2 of those being children.

It's all over the web at sites like this http://www.newint.org/issue316/facts.htm

Take a look at what Sadam spends his money on.

http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/mbmeXiraq122898.pdf

unfortunatley latest numbers are from '98.

The Military Balance in the Middle East –Iraq: Part X 12/30/98 Page 32
Copyright Anthony H. Cordesman, all rights reserved.
Force Trends in Iraq - Part One
Category/Weapon 1975 1980 1985 1990 1995 1999

Manpower
Total Active 135,000 242,250 520,000 1,000,000 382,500 429,000
Regular 135,000 242,250 520,000 1,000,000 382,500 429,000
Reserve 250,000 250,000 75,000 850,000 650,000 650,000
Paramilitary 19,800 79,800 4,800 4,800 24,800 55,400

Armyy and Republican Guards
Manpower 120,000 200,000 475,000 955,000 350,000 375,000
Regular Army Manpower 120,000 200,000 475,000 955,000 350,000 375,000
Reserve 250,000 250,000 75,000 - 350,000 450,000

If you can't feed your people how can you support 429k regular and 650k reserves?

I've heard a lot of talk about infrastructure (ie, Water treatment and delivery, electric power generation and delivery, etc.)

Here's some weapons systems data

Take note especially of Air Force Manpower, Air Defense Manpower, SSM Launchers, Light SAM Launchers and AA Guns, there are more but these jumped out at me.

PLEASE tell me how ANY of you can believe that Iraq can build and maintain SSM sites, grow their air defense systems, increase their number of helicopters, AA guns, etc... But they can't get the parts to fix their water supply or the money to feed their children?


Active Main Battle Tanks - - - - - 1,900
Total Main Battle Tanks 1,290 2,750 2,900 5,500 2,700 2,700
AIFV/Recce, Lt. Tanks - 300 1,050 4,434 2,400? 1,600
Active APCs - - - - - 1,800
Total APCs 1,300* 2,200 2,500 6,000 2,000 2,200
Self Propelled Artillery 90 240 440 500+ 230 150
Towed Artillery 700 800 3,000 3,000 1,500 1,800
MRLs - - 350 200+ 250 150
Mortars - - - - 2,700 2,000+
SSM Launchers - - 43 86 12 36?
Light SAM Launchers - - - 400+ 800 800
AA Guns 800 1,200 4,000 4,000 5,500 5,500
Air Force Manpower 12,000 28,000 30,000 30,000 15,000 35,000
Air Defense Manpower - 10,000 10,000 10,000 15,000 17,000
Total Combat Aircraft 247 332 500 689 353 307
Bombers 7 12 15 16 6? 6?
Fighter/Attack 110 195 181 360 130 130
Fighter/Interceptor 130 115 275 275 180 180
Recce/FGA Recce 0 0 5 12 18 8
AEW C4I/BM 0 0 0 2 1? 0
MR/MPA** 0 0 0 0 0 0
OCU/COIN/CCT 0 0 0 0 18 18
Other Combat Trainers 45 45 85 64? 75? 155
Transport Aircraft** 30 56 57 1 34 34
Tanker Aircraft 0 0 47 2 2
Total Helicopters 101 296 304 489 470 500
Armed Helicopters** 30 139 109 159 120 120
Other Helicopters** 71 157 195 330 350 380
Major SAM Launchers - - 270+ 460 260? 340
Light SAM Launchers - - 120+ - 60? 200
AA Guns - - - - - 0


sorry, but I couldn't get it to format well.




--------------------
"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart



Edited by LordMorham (09/20/02 03:25 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,107
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: LordMorham]
    #896239 - 09/20/02 11:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The only possible solution is overthrowing
their government and installing some kind
of puppet regime. That's the only solution
I can see to the problem.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: bivalve]
    #896261 - 09/20/02 11:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds good in theory, but in the history of the world this has never worked.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: LordMorham]
    #896927 - 09/21/02 05:59 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Why is it so hard to understand that the U.S. has absolutely NO business in Iraq?...None...for every reason you give me that the U.S. should be there, I'll shoot it down...easily, and give you a better reason why they shouldn't be there.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: Rono]
    #897659 - 09/21/02 04:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Why is it so hard to understand that the U.S. has absolutely NO business in Iraq?...None..



Don't you understand:
1) The U.S. is the world's policeman (which is okay when Republicans are in charge, but not when Democrats are in charge)
2) The price of oil will be driven up shaking out more small refiners in the states thereby decreasing competition in domestic markets and solidifying the position of the big oil companies.
3) When the price drops back down the U.S. will (hopefully) have a compliant regime in one of the most oil rich countries in the world.

What do you mean, 'NO business?'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: LordMorham]
    #897668 - 09/21/02 04:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you can't feed your people how can you support 429k regular and 650k reserves?







my guess is that public  health isn't a priority :wink:


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,045
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 hour, 19 minutes
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: Swami]
    #897916 - 09/21/02 07:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Sounds good in theory, but in the history of the world this has never worked.



You mean like how it didn't work in Japan after WW2????


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMortMtroN
journeyman
Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 62
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #898204 - 09/21/02 09:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Since when is government supposed to serve the public interest???


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: MortMtroN]
    #898215 - 09/21/02 09:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

since the concept of democracy was introduced, methinks?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLordMorham
High Lord @Revelstone
Registered: 09/08/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Revelstone
Last seen: 14 years, 27 days
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: Rono]
    #899258 - 09/22/02 02:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)


Rono said -

"Why is it so hard to understand that the U.S. has absolutely NO business in Iraq?...None...for every reason you give me that the U.S. should be there, I'll shoot it down...easily, and give you a better reason why they shouldn't be there. "

What does this have to do with my post?

Did you even read it?




--------------------
"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: LordMorham]
    #899704 - 09/22/02 06:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It has everything to do with your post, why do you suppose that Iraq needs to focus any resources into their military?...instead of putting money into their infrastructure? maybe because they been bombed repeatedly for the last 10 years? Can you blame them for trying to defend themselves against overwhelming odds? What if it was the U.S. getting pummeled...where do you think the majority of the money would go?...the war effort of course...not infrastructure. Bottom line...get the U.S. and their Aliies out of Iraq, it's only the innocent that are suffering...not Saddam or his henchmen.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLordMorham
High Lord @Revelstone
Registered: 09/08/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Revelstone
Last seen: 14 years, 27 days
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: Rono]
    #899936 - 09/22/02 08:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)


Rono said -

"It has everything to do with your post, why do you suppose that Iraq needs to focus any resources into their military?...instead of putting money into their infrastructure? maybe because they been bombed repeatedly for the last 10 years? Can you blame them for trying to defend themselves against overwhelming odds? What if it was the U.S. getting pummeled...where do you think the majority of the money would go?...the war effort of course...not infrastructure. Bottom line...get the U.S. and their Aliies out of Iraq, it's only the innocent that are suffering...not Saddam or his henchmen."

If you bothered to read the original post you would see a BUILD UP of Iraqi armed forces. Including state of the art SAM sites. This debunks the BS spouted by your ilk that they were unable to procure replacement parts for infrastructure repair because of the sanctions. I've seen posts claiming 1,000,000 dead Iraqi civilians were did these numbers come from? I'm calling you out on this, and on the fact that the sanctions are responsible for ANY increase in Iraqi mortality rates.

The only "bombing" we've done has been in response to threats posed against our people patroling the no-fly zone. Would you have our pilots do nothing and get shot down. We are there to save lifes and to protect S.A. and Kuwait.

The United States established a no-fly zone over southern Iraq in 1991 after the Persian Gulf War to diminish Iraq's ability to threaten Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, and to protect Shiites in the south from attack by President Saddam Hussein's military. It established a no-fly zone over northern Iraq in 1992 to protect Iraqi Kurds

Statistics provided by the U.S. European Command for the northern no-fly zone show that frequent Iraqi missile and anti-aircraft threats against U.S. and British aircraft began in 1999 with 143 incidents, and peaked the next year with 145 unsuccessful attacks. The number declined to 97 in 2001 and stood at 32 by late June of this year.

The number of times U.S. and British jets returned fire has also declined, from 102 in 1999 to 48 in 2000, and 11 in 2001. So far this fiscal year, which began on Oct. 1, coalition aircraft have returned fire 14 times over the southern no-fly zone and eight times over the northern no-fly zone.

It's very simple - if he don't want us to blow up his missile sites he shouldn't target us with them.




--------------------
"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARMY [Re: LordMorham]
    #901429 - 09/23/02 11:43 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

lol...You are really swallowing the anti-Iraq bullshit hook, line and sinker aren't you? Well allow me to enlighten your misguided perception of things...

1) Do you even understand what I was saying in my post? Of course Iraq is going to build up their military...ESPECIALLY SAM sites. If you were getting pummeled from jets for the last 10 years, would it not make sense to you to maybe defend yourself against aircraft?...Anyone using a little logic could figure that out.

2) As for the sanctions...Iraq can't get clean drinking water, NOT because they can't get "parts"...it's because they can't get chlorine to clean the water, THAT'S why they are dying. It's not because they can't get water...it's because they can't get CLEAN water. (Do you know what the number one reason for death in the world is?...No, not cancer...If you guessed no access to clean drinking water, you get a cookie)
3) you're disputing the number of dead Iraqi's?...You sound like a Neo-Nazi saying that the 6 million jews that dies was a hoax..but I will provide you proof anyways. UN sanctions on Iraq lead to deaths of 500,000 children Iraq deaths double under UN sanctions The Sanctions ...Is that enough, or would you like more?

4)
In reply to:

The only "bombing" we've done has been in response to threats posed against our people patroling the no-fly zone. Would you have our pilots do nothing and get shot down. We are there to save lifes and to protect S.A. and Kuwait.


No...I woudn't have your pilots over there in the first place. Do you really believe that Iraq is threat anymore to Kuwait?...and when did they become a threat to Saudi Arabia? What recent agression have they shown to either?...Like I said before, don't believe the hype.

5)
In reply to:

It's very simple - if he don't want us to blow up his missile sites he shouldn't target us with them.


You're right about one thing...it is very simple...If you don't want to be targetted, get out of Iraq...wasn't that easy?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 03:21 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901701 - 09/23/02 02:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

you're disputing the number of dead Iraqi's?...You sound like a Neo-Nazi saying that the 6 million jews that dies was a hoax..but I will provide you proof anyways. UN sanctions on Iraq lead to deaths of 500,000 children Iraq deaths double under UN sanctions The Sanctions ...Is that enough, or would you like more?

Those numbers are inflated. I dispute them, many other people dispute them, and UNICEF's own reports dispute them. This is a repost of what I posted in another thread :

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

Could you please explain for us the connection between Iraqi women following the worldwide trend of moving towards a more modern (albeit arguably less nutritious) method of child-rearing (bottle-feeding vs. breast-feeding) and the imposition of the United Nations sanctions? Could it be possible that the sanctions have nothing to do with it at all -- that ALL of the increase in infant mortality is instead due to the "dramatic increase in bottle-feeding"? For the record, I personally don't believe it IS entirely due to bottle-feeding, but as UNICEF themselves say, it is difficult to specifically attribute the death of a child to any single cause. Certainly UNICEF feels bottle-feeding is a serious enough factor in the increase in Iraq's infant mortality to emphasize in no uncertain terms their opposition to it.

Here's some more from the report:

"In the autonomous northern region, under-5 mortality rose from 80 deaths per 1000 live births in the period 1984-1989 to 90 deaths per 1000 live births during the years 1989-1994. The under-5 rate fell to 72 deaths per 1000 live births between 1994 and 1999. Infant mortality rates followed a similar pattern."

Now isn't that interesting! In the northern region of Iraq, where Hussein's control is weakest, the latest availale mortality rates are actually 10% lower than they were ten years earlier, before sanctions were imposed.

What is the only possible conclusion we can draw from this? Why, it MUST be that the sanctions are actually SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES!!!!! *sarcasm*

Seiously, though, what is the most likely explanation for this documented drop? Someone with less belief than I in Hussein's oft-demonstrated concern for his fellow man might say that in the autonomous north the humanitarian supplies are actually making it to those who need it, rather than being hijacked by Hussein's thugs to be resold at a profit through the black market.

Sound bites and carefully selected snippets are worse than useless when it comes to statistical analyses. The METHODOLOGY of the surveys must be considered, and ALL factors looked at, not just the ones which appear to support your personal agenda.

Besides, all of this is moot, because it is all Saddam's fault anyway. Have the sanctions made life more difficult for the Iraqi poor? Yep. Would the sanctions have been imposed if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait? Nope.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901727 - 09/23/02 02:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So it doesn't really matter what I show as proof then does it?...You are of the opinion that it's all bullshit. LordMorham asked for proof and I provided 3 sites...there is many more, but I suspect that will not make a difference.

Just as a side note Pinky...what is your personal beliefs on the whole Iraq situation? Do you support it?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901764 - 09/23/02 02:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Iraq can't get clean drinking water, NOT because they can't get "parts"...it's because they can't get chlorine to clean the water...

Sometimes, I just can't help it. I come to this forum, and within five minutes I burst out laughing, earning a dirty look from my girlfriend and her cat. What other reaction can I have to the abysmal ignorance so proudly and defiantly displayed here on a daily basis? I can laugh or I can cry. Neither reaction makes a damn bit of difference, but laughing makes me feel better, so I laugh.

Rono, the turniphead who told you Iraq couldn't "get" chlorine never took a freshman high school chemistry course. The sad thing is not that some moron makes preposterous statements like this, it's that so many people BELIEVE those statements.

Here's the equation:

2 NaCl + 2 H2O ==> Cl2 + H2 + 2 NaOH

Chlorine is manufactured industrially as a by-product in the manufacture of Caustic Soda (often referred to as lye) by the electrolysis of brine. It's simplicity itself -- run an electrical current through salt water, collect the hydrogen and chlorine, collect the lye.

I remember doing this in ninth grade chemistry lab. When you reach the ninth grade, you'll get to do it, too. It's fun!

The simple fact is, anyone with access to salt water and electricity can have as much chlorine as they want.

Just one more example in a seemingly endless stream of examples of the supposed "open-mindedness" often exhibited by frequent posters to this forum. Their minds are so freaking "open" that what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate flees through that opening as soon as any statement, no matter how patently absurd, is uttered by someone critical of US policy.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901803 - 09/23/02 03:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you for the chemistry lesson Pinky, although the fact still remains that they do not have clean drinking water...as a direct result of U.S. bombing, and U.N. sanctions...or do you dispute that as well? I'm also still waiting for your personal views on the proposed U.S. "invasion" of Iraq?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 03:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901830 - 09/23/02 03:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

So it doesn't really matter what I show as proof then does it?...You are of the opinion that it's all bullshit. LordMorham asked for proof and I provided 3 sites...there is many more, but I suspect that will not make a difference.

But the thing is, you did NOT provide proof. Instead you provided links to sites which hold an interpretation of a UNICEF study that fits your beliefs rather than read the actual UNICEF study. Sadly, that is what almost everyone does, because it is easier to let someone else think for you than to think for yourself.

I suggest you read the ACTUAL REPORT rather than accept someone else's OPINION of the report. When I was reading the report, I was intrigued by UNICEF's vehement opposition to the practice of bottle-feeding infants in third-world environments, so I spent a fair bit of time checking out their stance on it in nations other than Iraq. Lo and behold, there appears to be a definite correlation between infant mortality rates and breast-feeding, at least in emerging nations. UNICEF is actually on to something here. So, by actually READING the damn report, I found a new tidbit of information I would not otherwise have known. I got interested in the broader topic and did some more digging. Many studies have been done besides the UNICEF ones. Studies even in the developed nations show a correlation between increased adult height and muscle mass and breast-feeding, as well as a correlation between higher IQ and breast-feeding. But I digress.

What is relevant in this context is this: if the same phenomenon is occurring in Iraq that has occurred in other countries (and I see no reason to presume otherwise) a VERY significant percentage of recent infant deaths in Iraq probably ARE directly related to bottle-feeding rather than to the sanctions. Can ALL of the increase in infant morality be blamed on bottle-feeding? Of course not. Can ALL of the increase in infant mortality be blamed on the US? Of course not.

Just as a side note Pinky...what is your personal beliefs on the whole Iraq situation? Do you support it?

Here's a review of the facts:

Iraq started a war of conquest.
They lost.
Hussein agreed to certain conditions in order to obtain a cease-fire and avoid capture.
Hussein then refused to abide by ANY of those conditions.
The UN imposed trade sanctions in an attempt to coerce Hussein into fulfilling the deal he agreed on.
Hussein ignored the sanctions. (Why not? He's still getting his three squares a day. He still has enough resources to rebuild his military. Why should he care if some babies are dying? Babies are free and easily replaceable. Weapons are neither.)

So far, no one with even a pretense of objectivity can deny any of the above points. They are not my opinions, they are FACTS. The question is: What to do about it?

The UN is faced with a pretty simple choice:

a) take some firmer action in order to get Hussein to live up to his end of the deal
b)admit that they are toothless pussies who made a huge mistake in not allowing the coalition forces to seize Baghdad in 1991.

I personally couldn't care less which alternative they choose. I have been convinced for over thirty years that the UN is a useless organization, so I predict they will choose option b). But I must admit part of the reason for my indifference is that the next time  Hussein goes postal, it is pretty unlikely that he will decide to lob a SCUD towards the Dominican Republic, where I live.

It was an ENORMOUS mistake not to have finished the job in 1991. It would have been simplicity itself to roll into Baghdad, throw Hussein in the clink, destroy most of his military stuff, then organize and supervise free elections to decide who would replace Hussein. But (surprise, surprise) the UN pussied out.

Does the UN have the RIGHT to force Hussein to abide by the terms of the surrender? Obviously they do. Anyone who believes otherwise is someone I would like to propose a business deal to.

Look, it is exactly analagous to a mugger getting caught, and, since it is his first offence, the court shows leniency. Rather than throwing his ass in jail, they give him probation. As long as he follows the terms and conditions of the probation agreement, he can walk around. By rights, legally and morally he SHOULD be doing time. But if he holds up his end of the deal he doesn't have to.

Unless he violates the terms of his probation. Then there is no defense of "Well OTHER people have done bad stuff too! Why are you picking on ME?" or "Well all my homies have guns, why can't I have one too?" or "You don't really have to throw me in jail. I've learned my lesson, really I have!"

It's pretty cut and dried -- abide by the terms or get tossed in the clink. So what is the difference between Hussein's refusal to abide by the surrender terms and a mugger's refusal to abide by the terms of his probation?

Now I have a question for you. What do YOU think is the best way to compel Hussein to abide by the terms he agreed to?

pinky

     


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901850 - 09/23/02 03:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Thank you for the chemistry lesson Pinky...

Glad to be of help.

... although the fact still remains that they do not have clean drinking water...as a direct result of U.S. bombing, and U.N. sanctions...or do you dispute that as well?

And the bombing and UN sanctions were a direct result of Hussein launching a war of conquest... or do you dispute that as well?

As for the inability to repair water purification plants in the dozen years since they were damaged, I admit this one has me stymied. Cuba and other Caribbean nations repair on an almost annual basis huge amounts of devastation to infrastructure caused by hurricanes. Why has Hussein been unable to do so yet?

A cynical person would say that Hussein would rather spend 12 billion a year building weapons than 1 billion a year fixing water pumps because he knows that he can claim the deaths of his countrymen are the fault of the US rather than the fault of his own adventurism, and an astonishing number of chuckleheads all over the world will actually believe him.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 12 days, 22 hours
Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901861 - 09/23/02 03:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Let me answer your question with another question...what would it take to prevent the U.S. from attacking Iraq again? Iraq letting in weapons inspectors? (Which they already agreed to do) A compliant puppet government of their choosing? (Sort of like how Saddam used to be when he was the U.S.'s buddy)

I suspect that it won't matter what Saddam does or agrees to, the U.S. is going to invade Iraq no matter what...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Oil Fields Have Been Secured pattern 342 3 04/04/03 08:25 PM
by RadioActiveSlug
* HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
( 1 2 3 all )
lonestar2004 3,689 40 02/25/07 02:16 PM
by gluke bastid
* Bush=Hitler
( 1 2 all )
FeliusAndromeda 2,148 32 10/06/02 03:00 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power (long) ekomstop 808 5 09/28/04 07:16 PM
by Phred
* McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God’s Will
( 1 2 all )
danknugz81 1,832 25 05/22/08 09:28 PM
by johnm214
* Hitler V Saddam
( 1 2 all )
germin8tionn8ion 2,441 28 07/03/04 11:20 AM
by Ed1
* A call to arms cloned 485 10 04/01/06 05:58 AM
by cloned
* Who armed Iraq?
( 1 2 all )
luvdemshrooms 1,564 27 03/21/03 09:52 AM
by luvdemshrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,090 topic views. 1 members, 0 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.135 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.