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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901882 - 09/23/02 04:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The fact that the plants aren't repaired yet is inconsequential...the issue is with the fact that they were bombed intentionally in the first place. Which directly opposes the Geneva convention...why is it okay for the U.S. to commit human rights abuses and crimes of war? To use your same mugger analogy...it's akin to if the mugger was beaten by the cops while violating parole, who is worse, the mugger?...or the cops?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 04:24 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901890 - 09/23/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

As for the inability to repair water purification plants in the dozen years since they were damaged, I admit this one has me stymied. Cuba and other Caribbean nations repair on an almost annual basis huge amounts of devastation to infrastructure caused by hurricanes. Why has Hussein been unable to do so yet?


Perhaps because Cuba and other Carribean nations haven't had hurricanes everyday for the last 10 years...whereas Iraq has been bombed continuously.
In reply to:

A cynical person would say that Hussein would rather spend 12 billion a year building weapons than 1 billion a year fixing water pumps because he knows that he can claim the deaths of his countrymen are the fault of the US rather than the fault of his own adventurism, and an astonishing number of chuckleheads all over the world will actually believe him.


Is this what you truly believe? or are you just trying to be antagonistic?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901917 - 09/23/02 04:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono writes:

Let me answer your question with another question...

No deal. I'm through playing things YOUR way.

Look... I answer ALL your questions. I have never dodged a single one, EVER, no matter what the topic. You, on the other hand, routinely answer only the ones you think you have a comeback to, and ignore the rest.

You asked me for my views, I gave them to you. I then asked you what YOU think should be done, and you start doing the reptilian, topic-changing, POLITICIAN-LIKE dance that I run into so often here from people who can't justify their stance.

Time to put up or shut up, broham. I'll make it as simple as I can for you, and gather them here in one place.

1 -- What do YOU think is the best way to compel Hussein to abide by the terms he agreed to?

a) Make more speeches in the UN
b) Impose even tougher sanctions
c) Depose Hussein by force
d) Other ................................... (fill in blank)


2 -- Were the bombing and UN sanctions a direct result of Hussein launching a war of conquest ?

a) Yes
b) No

3 -- Why has Hussein not yet accomplished a technically simple, relatively inexpensive task such as rebuilding water purification plants, yet he is able to arm, house, feed, and provide water for a standing army of half a million and a reserve of another half million?

a) He can't manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals
b) He chooses not to manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals
c) Other .............................. (fill in blank)

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901928 - 09/23/02 04:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono writes:

The fact that the plants aren't repaired yet is inconsequential...

I'll bet the Iraqis drinking ditchwater while they watch columns of troops roll by would disagree with that statement.

...the issue is with the fact that they were bombed intentionally in the first place.

So it's okay to just let them sit in disrepair forever?

Which directly opposes the Geneva convention...

There are numerous documented violations of that same convention by Iraqis. The starting of the war was in the first place a violation.

why is it okay for the U.S. to commit human rights abuses and crimes of war?

It's not. When have I ever maintained that? That doesn't change the fact that Iraq's water supply would be intact if Hussein had not initiated a war of conquest.

To use your same mugger analogy...it's akin to if the mugger was beaten by the cops while violating parole, who is worse, the mugger?...or the cops?

Not at all. It is more accurate to ask "If the mugger was beaten by the cops WHILE BEING ARRESTED, who is worse?" And the answer is the same... if the mugger had not mugged someone in the first place, he wouldn't have been beaten.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901932 - 09/23/02 04:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Okay fine...I will answer all of 'em...then in return you can answer mine. (bear in mind your questions are hardly objective)

1 d) get the fuck out of Iraq...he is not a threat anymore. He screwed up once and learned his lesson...do you really think he would try again?

2 a) Yes, they were.

3 c) As I've said before...if your country was in a perpetual state of war, what would YOU do? It only makes sense to focus on his military...and how can he manufacture anything to purify the water if his plants are constantly being bombed, because they are suspected chemical weapons plants?


--------------------
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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Phred]
    #901936 - 09/23/02 04:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #901947 - 09/23/02 04:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

That doesn't change the fact that Iraq's water supply would be intact if Hussein had not initiated a war of conquest.



I agree Iraq should not have invaded Kuwait (corrected), I have never contested that. But for the U.S. to play holier than thou, while they intentionaly target civilian populations (Against the geneva convention) by attacking the water supply is just plain wrong. No matter how you decide to rationalize it.

In reply to:

Not at all. It is more accurate to ask "If the mugger was beaten by the cops WHILE BEING ARRESTED, who is worse?" And the answer is the same... if the mugger had not mugged someone in the first place, he wouldn't have been beaten.


So to paraphrase.. it's okay for the cops to break the law, because the mugger did?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 05:12 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: ]
    #901952 - 09/23/02 04:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Marrowind...perhaps you would like to step up to bat instead of shouting from the stands?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #901957 - 09/23/02 04:49 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono writes:

Perhaps because Cuba and other Carribean nations haven't had hurricanes everyday for the last 10 years...whereas Iraq has been bombed continuously.

Let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the US has bombed water purification plants AFTER the surrender agreement was signed? Source please.

Are you saying that if Hussein were to repair these plants the US would bomb them again? I guess we'll never know, since he clearly has no intention of rebuilding the plants anyway.

Is this what you truly believe? or are you just trying to be antagonistic?

Do I believe that Hussein is deliberately letting the situation of his people deteriorate for the sake of propaganda impact? That is a plausible claim, but not easy to prove one way or the other. You're the one who keeps telling me Saddam is "shrewd". Does that sound like something a shrewd operator might try?

Let me put it this way -- I think it is more plausible than the claim that the US government deliberately let the September 11 attacks take place for the sake of propaganda impact.

His MOTIVATIONS for leaving the plants unrepaired aside, what I KNOW (rather than what I think) is that if Hussein had spend a fraction of the money he spends on armaments on rebuilding his water purification plants instead, this would have been a non-issue for the last ten years. Anyone who says Iraq doesn't have the capacity to rebuild them is full of shit.

But, as I have said before, it is a moot point. If he had never embarked on a war of conquest, he wouldn't have had to rebuild them at all.

pinky


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Rono]
    #901965 - 09/23/02 04:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: ]
    #901994 - 09/23/02 05:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Although I'm glad you see nothing wrong with targetting civilians, I still have an issue with it. All the rationalizing in the world does nothing to change the fact that the U.S. is killing innocents...Let me put this into perspective...how many died as a result of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait?...200 people tops (and that is a generous estimate) Now how many have died as a result of the war on Iraq?...how many of those were civilians?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 05:20 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #902005 - 09/23/02 05:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono provides some answers to the following questions:

1 -- What do YOU think is the best way to compel Hussein to abide by the terms he agreed to?
a) Make more speeches in the UN
b) Impose even tougher sanctions
c) Depose Hussein by force

Rono's choice:
d) get the fuck out of Iraq...he is not a threat anymore. He screwed up once and learned his lesson...do you really think he would try again?

Translation: It is not necessary to to compel him to abide by the terms of the surrender. (Gee, I'll bet our hypothetical mugger would jump at a deal like that.)

3 -- Why has Hussein not yet accomplished a technically simple, relatively inexpensive task such as rebuilding water purification plants, yet he is able to arm, house, feed, and provide water for a standing army of half a million and a reserve of another half million?
a) He can't manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals
b) He chooses not to manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals

Rono's choice:
c) As I've said before...if your country was in a perpetual state of war, what would YOU do? It only makes sense to focus on his military...and how can he manufacture anything to purify the water if his plants are constantly being bombed, because they are suspected chemical weapons plants?

Translation: he chooses not to manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals, because his view is that the war never stopped. Further, he claims the US might bomb the water plants again once they are repaired, even though the US has not bombed them in the eleven years since the surrender was signed.

Thanks for the answers, sir. They were instructive.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #902012 - 09/23/02 05:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Translation: It is not necessary to to compel him to abide by the terms of the surrender. (Gee, I'll bet our hypothetical mugger would jump at a deal like that.)


Iraq has said they will let weapons inspectors in...what more do you want?

In reply to:

Translation: he chooses not to manufacture the necessary parts and chemicals, because his view is that the war never stopped. Further, he claims the US might bomb the water plants again once they are repaired, even though the US has not bombed them in the eleven years since the surrender was signed.


But apparently it was perfectly fine for the U.S. to bomb them in the first place...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/23/02 05:29 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #902038 - 09/23/02 05:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono asks:

Let me answer your question with another question...what would it take to prevent the U.S. from attacking Iraq again? Iraq letting in weapons inspectors?

In my opinion Iraq would have to abide by ALL of the terms of the surrender agreement. Bush in his recent speech listed at least half a dozen violations of the agreement that had nothing whatsoever to do with weapons inspectors. Every one of those violations has been discussed before by the UN, even back when Clinton was president.... hell even back when George the First was still president.

The sad fact is, if Iraq had complied with the "biggies" from the get go, a lot of the "lesser" violations would probably have been let slide.

I suspect that it won't matter what Saddam does or agrees to, the U.S. is going to invade Iraq no matter what...

Here we disagree. If Hussein scrupulously meets all the conditions of the surrender agreement, Bush won't have a leg to stand on. And even *I* (no Bush fan, for sure) can't see him being boneheaded enough to push for military action under those conditions.

Having said that, IF the unlikely scenario of Hussein actually fulfilling his obligations ever comes to pass, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a year or two down the road an assassination attempt against Hussein succeeded, and information subsequently comes to light that the assassins had ties to the CIA or the Mossad.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #902048 - 09/23/02 05:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Having said that, IF the unlikely scenario of Hussein actually fulfilling his obligations ever comes to pass, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a year or two down the road an assassination attempt against Hussein succeeded, and information subsequently comes to light that the assassins had ties to the CIA or the Mossad.


Thank you for your opinion, now I have to ask you why you think the U.S. would assassinate Hussein even after he (hypothetically) met their conditions? What would be their reasoning? Would it be fair to say that control of the regions oil would be enough reason? (bear in mind this is all just opinion of a hypothetical situation)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #902067 - 09/23/02 05:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono writes:

how many died as a result of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait?...200 people tops

How many people died in Hitler's invasion of Austria and Czechoslovakia? 200 people tops.

Now how many have died as a result of the war on Iraq?...how many of those were civilians?

Now how many died as the result of the war on Nazi Germany? ... how many of those were civilians?

Rono, you have an uncanny knack for asking the wrong questions. You never ask questions like:

"How many people would have died if Hussein, faced with the overwhelming superiority of the coalition forces, had surrendered rather than choosing to fight it out?"

Why don't you acknowledge reality for just once in your life? The facts are that Hussein INITIATED a war of conquest, he CONTINUED his occupation of the conquered territory (in the face of threats, sanctions, and armed response), he ordered his troops to fight to the last man, he destroyed every oil field he possibly could while he retreated, he signed a surrender agreement in order to save his own worthless hide, then immediately proceeded to ignore ever condition he agreed to, meanwhile spending every nickel he could scrounge on re-armament.

But now he is no longer a threat and he has learned his lesson. Uh-huh.

pinky 


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Phred]
    #902073 - 09/23/02 06:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If you want to compare that way...It would be easier to compare George W Bush to Hitler than it would be to compare Saddam.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Rono]
    #902090 - 09/23/02 06:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: ]
    #902104 - 09/23/02 06:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I have never taken the "Easy" way out...and I'm sure that even the people I debate with regularily would agree with that. And what exactly were the "trivial" facts you speak of?

(P.S. I can't speak on behalf of Pinky, but I don't think you are interpretting correctly)


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Re: We are starving but we can field a 1mm MAN ARM [Re: Rono]
    #902113 - 09/23/02 06:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Rono asks:

Thank you for your opinion, now I have to ask you why you think the U.S. would assassinate Hussein even after he (hypothetically) met their conditions?

I didn't say I think they will for sure. I'm neutral on the issue. I said I wouldn't be SURPRISED to hear it, because the man has been known to aid terrorists in the past, and will do so again. Some of those terrorists will target the US.

Would it be fair to say that control of the regions oil would be enough reason?

Nope. The US doesn't need Iraqi oil. When you get right down to it, the US doesn't need middle-east oil at all. Depending which source you choose and which year is in question, the US imports between 9 and 12% of its oil from the Persian Gulf.

What none of the oil-conspiracy enthusiasts here ever bother to point out is that the US has had no difficulty obtaining every drop of oil it requires since the Gulf War ended. Note that none of that oil came from Iraq.

And, once the Caspian oil producers get their pipeline built (NOT through Afghanistan, note) there will be even MORE alternatives to Iraqi oil.

pinky


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