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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4888576 - 11/03/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Incidentally if you are so against the Oil for food program why have you spent years attacking Denis Haliday for pointing this out?




I attacked Haliday because he's a liar. As you know, I detest liars. This is why I detest Chomsky and Wilson and Michael Moore and Scott Ritter as well.



Phred


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4890710 - 11/03/05 09:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

this reminds me of something ronald reagan once said... "the trouble with liberals is, they know so much that isn't so"...

theres so much disinformation out there on both sides that its hard to determine what's real and what's fantasy or propaganda...

that being said, we've been getting the same sorts of accusations concerning the sanctions against cuba, but we also get mixed messages... sometimes we're told that the cuban people are suffering due to us sanctions, other times we're told they're prospering due to castro's fine leadership...

personally, I doubt that an organisation like the UN which is dedicated to the welfare of the people would intentionally cause death and disease for the sake of punishing one man...

I also doubt that any nation would let sanctions keep them from getting the things they need... plenty of things were smuggled into and out of iraq during the sanctions, medicines for children are as easy to bring across a border as a person is... we're told that they can't keep insurgents from coming into the country, yet we can stop the flow of pennicillin? highly doubtful...


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892023 - 11/04/05 02:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I attacked Haliday because he's a liar.

You'll need evidence to back that up. Your opinion on who is a liar is a very wacky.

As you know, I detest liars

You certainly seem to like using it as an insult for people who disagree with you. As for providing evidence to support your opinion you always come up a little short.

This is why I detest Chomsky and Wilson and Michael Moore and Scott Ritter as well

Hmm...I see a pattern here. Can you name anyone who shares your political opinions that is a liar?

Bush and his administration never lied about WMD right? They just made "misleading" statements?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892091 - 11/04/05 02:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Clearly the importation of chlorine was not prohibited

As I have explained will need evidence to support this. One alleged quote from one broken link does not suffice.

The experts operating the water plants in Iraq, people on the ground there investigating the issue all stated quite clearly the import of Chlorine was prohibited. The evidence of this is overwhelming. Are you claiming they all lied?

Professor Colin Rowat is well known for his opposition to the UN sanctions

Are you certain Professor Colin Rowat and the "Colin Rowat" you quoted are the same man? Professor Colin Rowat appears to live in England while "Colin Rowat" gave an american address.

Do you still insist the importation of chlorine to Iraq was prohibited? Despite the statements of Rowat

You are certain the Rowat you quoted is the Professor?

Pierrette Vu Thi, t

Can you link me to the place where she states the importation of Chlorine isn't prohibited? Better still a single reference from UNICEF at their official site. You appear to basing your entire argument on one alleged quote and disregarding everything that the experts on the ground in Iraq state quite clearly.

I'll let the readers of this thread draw their own conclusions from your intransigent, fingers-in-ears eyes-tightly-squeezed-shut stance.


You have yet to explain why the experts at the water treatment plants in Iraq disagree with you. Please do so.

Clearly you prefer the fact-free life

When your argument has been demolished, personal attack is the presumably all you have left. Sad.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892137 - 11/04/05 02:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This guy is on your side, Alex213.


Can you find us a little more detail to confirm this?

This is the address of the first "Colin Rowat" (no mention of any "Profesor") you quoted:

Quote:

Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA





This is the address of the Professor Colin Rowat you claim is the same person in your following post:


Dr. Colin Rowat - Course Material and Information
Department of Economics
University of Birmingham
England


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4892469 - 11/04/05 04:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

As I have explained will need evidence to support this.




I gave the readers evidence from three different sources. Pierrette Vu Thi --

Quote:

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."




Please explain to the readers how one can observe cylinders of chlorine arrive in Iraq if they are not being imported into Iraq? Where are they arriving from if not from outside Iraq? You claim "people on the ground" state importation of chlorine was prohibited. How does Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF Program Coordinator for Iraq, not qualify as a person "on the ground"?

Colin Rowat, who said there was so much chlorine being imported into Iraq that it took up to one and a half staff persons just to file the applications.

Your attempt to claim that the Colin Rowat posting at CASI's website is not the same Colin Rowat who is a co-ordinator for CASI is (to be as charitable as possible) astonishingly bizarre. The fact that he may spend part of his time in New York and part of his time in Birmingham is no more odd than the fact that Mark Steyn (for example) spends part of his time in Canada, part of his time in Vermont, and part of his time in London. There is such a thing as trans-Atlantic travel, Alex213. People often do reside part of the year in one country and part of the year in another, you know -- particularly university professors who get several consecutive months break every year.

My third source, globalsecurity.org, has been ignored entirely by you. I suppose you'll now claim it too is a "notorious propaganda website". The spectacle of someone citing commondreams.org declaring any other website a "propaganda website" is too blatant an example of irony for further comment.

And of course, we also have the UN Secretary-General's September 1997 "90 Day Report" confirmation of shipments of chlorine to Iraq.


Youve been thoroughly pwned, Alex213. Time to give this up and move on.



Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4892558 - 11/04/05 06:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

last i heard, supporting your allies and letting run their own internal affairs is the right thing to do... no crime there...




So as Saddam had not carried out any actions outside his own borders since the invasion of Kuwait why was invading the "right thing to do" over ten years later? If you have the temerity to say WMD then why was it not right to wait for 100% solid evidence before proceeding?

Quote:

the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...





This is ridiculous logic. We chose to impose the sanctions, nobody forced us to. Therefore we are partly responsible for the results of those sanctions.

Furthermore are you aware of the fact the US Ambassador April Gilespie gave Saddam a practical green light for the invasion by telling Saddam that the US had no interest in Arab-Arab conflicts? If she had instead said "You invade Kuwait and we are going to fuck you up" then Saddam would more than likely have stopped his plans for an invasion. Yes he was a tyrannical dictator but he definitely wasnt stupid...although trusting the word of the US government did turn out to be a pretty stupid move in the end.

Quote:

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...




nice venturing but really just meaningless noise as you make no attempt whatsoever to back up this claim.

Quote:

the whole 'sanctions killed the kids' argument hinges on the notion that had saddam had more money available, he could have saved the kids... but would he have done so? It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...




You obviously know absolutely nothing about the welfare of the Iraqi people prior to the first Gulf War. Why dont you go away and find out about that and then we can continue this conversation?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4892569 - 11/04/05 06:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

personally, I doubt that an organisation like the UN which is dedicated to the welfare of the people would intentionally cause death and disease for the sake of punishing one man...




Quote:

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)





You cannot deny that it was known or at least suspected what effect the sanctions were having on the Iraqi people so regardless of how valid the reasons for enforcing the sanction supposedly were how can you possibly in good conscience say that a) It was correct to continue sanctions when this knowledge became available b) The agencies who enforced the sanctions hold no responsibility for the results of these sanctions?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892642 - 11/04/05 07:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

fuck, i just spent an hour writing a full scale reply and my computer bugged  :mad2:



But basically all you need to know is here:

10 Years of Destruction: What the UN & U.S. Have Knowingly Been Doing To Iraq and Its People



Eight grueling years of war with Iran, followed by the Gulf War of 1990 has truly left Iraq and its people exhausted. The economy, and as a result, the infrastructure of the country, lay in ruins and seem to be only getting worse. In an attempt to pressure Iraq and its President Saddam Hussein to stop manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, the United Nations established a set of sanctions to limit the country's policies and behavior. However, a closer examination shows that the sanctions themselves are being used as a weapon of mass destruction. It is not Saddam Hussein or the Iraqi government which is suffering, but the people and lands of Iraq. More surprising than the fact of Iraq?s deteriorated state is the obvious notion of the U.S.?s and basically the rest of the world?s disregard to Iraq?s demise.

...

According to Davidsson , ?One of the largest problems besides the economic, political, and direct effects on the people of Iraq was that the UN Sanctions Committee was empowered to determine the necessary resources needed by Iraq for purchasing products and approving exceptions to the ban on Iraqi exports. Under the sanctions, all imports into Iraq and all exports from Iraq were prohibited unless the UN Committee permitted exceptions? (1). Troubles arose as the committee group in charge of determining what items were to be allowed inside Iraq did not foresee the problems that would arise in outlawing certain chemicals, equipment, and supplies that were considered as essential life products. ?These so called ?duel use? items, which were civilian necessities and yet also tools to help the Iraqi Military, included pesticides and fertilizer, spare parts for crop-dusting, helicopters, chlorine, computers, trucks, telecommunications equipment, and many other electrical equipment? (Gordon 2). While the idea of trying to keep these items out of the hands of the Iraqi military is a smart one, the fact that it is almost impossible to obtain such commonly owned items as computers, radios, and farming supplies while living in Iraq is simply unbelievable. While the UN and U.S. fight to weaken a select few, we deprive millions of people, punishing them simply for their homeland.

According to the C.E.S.R. , ?Nothing was more harmful than the ban of the chemical chlorine. Although chlorine is used in the making of most chemical and biological weapons, it is also a necessity in water purification? (1). Most of the country, because of the ban on chlorine, has no clean or safe to drink water and very poor sewage distribution, if any at all. According to Nagy , ?The Gulf War severely damaged Iraq's infrastructure, interrupting the power supply and consequently the operation of pumping and treatment facilities. Since then, money and spare parts have not been available to repair sewage works and purification plants, which are often working at reduced capacity if at all. This had led to an overall deterioration in the quality and quantity of drinking water and the rapid spread of infectious diseases, such as cholera? (1). Also amazingly banned are materials and machines that contribute to bomb making, yet are essential parts of any hospital. People die every day of diseases that did not exist in pre-sanction Iraq, such as malaria, cholera, and tuberculosis, or of ailments that could be easily be treated with simple medication. These are medications and supplies that are either banned by or that have not been sent to Iraq due to the tactics of the UN committee. With a majority of the population of Iraq either suffering from diseases, malnutrition, or war injuries, it?s no wonder why most Iraqis do not survive since the quality and quantity of hospitals inside the country are so low.?

With the aim of the sanctions supposedly targeted at Saddam Hussein and the corrupt Iraqi government, few were objectful to the ideas presented by the sanctions. Hopes were that the sanctions would weaken Hussein, thereby allowing opposition groups to remove him from power. However, as time went on, the obvious presented itself. This assault was not on the solitary individual of Saddam Hussein, as our media and government leaders would have us believe, but on the expense of the entire country. In fact, if anything, Hussein was benefiting and actually becoming more powerful as time went on.?

.......


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4893343 - 11/04/05 01:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

exclusive58, I know you are new enough to this forum not to have read some of my earlier posts on this matter, but I have always said from the very beginning that the UN sanctions on Iraq were a bad idea.

The correct thing to have done was to have rolled into Baghdad in 1991, turfed the Ba'athists out, and set up an elected government. Sanctions almost never work when applied to dictatorial regimes because the whole premise of imposing sanctions is that the sanctioned regime cares enough for the people it rules (or fears those people enough) to take the steps necessary to get the sanctions lifted. Sanctions never hurt those in power but always hurt those they rule.

I am not denying the UN sanctions had negative effects on the people of Iraq. I am merely correctly pointing out that chlorine was imported into Iraq under the UN sanctions.





Phred


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4893679 - 11/04/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

last i heard, supporting your allies and letting run their own internal affairs is the right thing to do... no crime there...




So as Saddam had not carried out any actions outside his own borders since the invasion of Kuwait why was invading the "right thing to do" over ten years later? If you have the temerity to say WMD then why was it not right to wait for 100% solid evidence before proceeding?




Invading iraq was a bad decision, but I can see the rationale for doing so... we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people, it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...

Quote:


Quote:

the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...





This is ridiculous logic. We chose to impose the sanctions, nobody forced us to. Therefore we are partly responsible for the results of those sanctions.

Furthermore are you aware of the fact the US Ambassador April Gilespie gave Saddam a practical green light for the invasion by telling Saddam that the US had no interest in Arab-Arab conflicts? If she had instead said "You invade Kuwait and we are going to fuck you up" then Saddam would more than likely have stopped his plans for an invasion. Yes he was a tyrannical dictator but he definitely wasnt stupid...although trusting the word of the US government did turn out to be a pretty stupid move in the end.




Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies... there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded... and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government... and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...
Quote:


Quote:

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...




nice venturing but really just meaningless noise as you make no attempt whatsoever to back up this claim.




yes, it is difficult to prove what coulda woulda shoulda happened, but none can argue what did happen, which is that a lot of people died needlessly while those responsible for the welfare of those people lived lavish and extravagant lifestyles...





Quote:


Quote:

the whole 'sanctions killed the kids' argument hinges on the notion that had saddam had more money available, he could have saved the kids... but would he have done so? It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...




You obviously know absolutely nothing about the welfare of the Iraqi people prior to the first Gulf War. Why dont you go away and find out about that and then we can continue this conversation?







and you obviously know nothing about the responsibilities of leadership... why don't you go suck an egg?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4903403 - 11/07/05 05:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people,





So you admit your own Government lied to the entire world over their reasons for invading Iraq?

Quote:

it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...




Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.

Quote:

Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies...




Wrong! It would have been clear to Gillespie that the Iraqi's were seeking advice on what consequences they would face if they invaded Kuwait.

Quote:

there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded...




What exactly is this contractual obligation?

Quote:

and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government...




Where did I say the US imposed the sanctions? I said "We" referring to the west as a whole.

Quote:

and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...





As I have already said why dont you go and find out how the Iraqi people fared pre-sanctions and then compare that to how the fared during the sanctions? Of course you wont do this because it means you might have to change the way you think or admit some of the opinions you have picked up are in fact absolute bollocks.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4907926 - 11/08/05 05:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Pierrette Vu Thi --



As I stated, you have provided one alleged quote from a single broken link. What you need is more evidence. As yet you havn't got a leg to stand on.

Please explain to the readers how one can observe cylinders of chlorine arrive in Iraq if they are not being imported into Iraq?

As I have requested several times, can you provide a single source other than your own mind, that states the importation of chlorine into Iraq wasn't prohibited?

You claim "people on the ground" state importation of chlorine was prohibited

I don't "claim" this, I provide evidence from the experts running the water treatment plants.

How does Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF Program Coordinator for Iraq, not qualify as a person "on the ground"?


Again, you rely on one quote from one broken link. Do you have any other evidence to support your case?

Your attempt to claim that the Colin Rowat posting at CASI's website is not the same Colin Rowat

I didn't "claim" anything. I asked you to support your case and provide evidence that two people with completely different addresses, one of which who calls himself "Dr", while the other does not are the same person. Please do so.

Youve been thoroughly pwned, Alex213

Don't be childish. You have provided absolutely no evidence to support your case. I have provided you with several statements by water treatment experts on the ground in Iraq stating the importation of Chlorine is prohibited. Until you can counter this you are going nowhere and you know it.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4908028 - 11/08/05 07:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people,





So you admit your own Government lied to the entire world over their reasons for invading Iraq?




Do i need to remind you that it was not the United States that ivvaded iraq, it was a coalition of forces ordered to do so by the United Nations Security Council... there were four other nations besides the US, France included, who had the power to veto that resolution... nobody stepped up to veto it, and when the council voted, they voted to invade...

I think its obvious that the general public was told some pretty big lies, but its just as obvious that the other members of the Security Council were in on the lies... lying to the public about the reasons to go to war is nothing new under the sun... remember the Maine?



Quote:

it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...




Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.




Since when does morality play a part in military decisions?

Quote:

Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies...




Wrong! It would have been clear to Gillespie that the Iraqi's were seeking advice on what consequences they would face if they invaded Kuwait.

Quote:

there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded...




What exactly is this contractual obligation?






its called a treaty... you should look up treaties, they are legal documents that nations sign with one another to provide for the common defense of both in cse one is attacked...

Quote:

and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government...




Where did I say the US imposed the sanctions? I said "We" referring to the west as a whole.




Not just the west... half the world wanted to go to war in Iraq, and half the wotrld sent troops...

Quote:

and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...





As I have already said why dont you go and find out how the Iraqi people fared pre-sanctions and then compare that to how the fared during the sanctions? Of course you wont do this because it means you might have to change the way you think or admit some of the opinions you have picked up are in fact absolute bollocks.




and i've already said go suck an egg... it's obvious that the people of iraq fared worse under sanctions than they did without them... because their leaders diverted every cent that was supposed to provide for the welfare of the people and used the money to buy golden toilet bowls...


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4908116 - 11/08/05 09:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Do i need to remind you that it was not the United States that ivvaded iraq, it was a coalition of forces ordered to do so by the United Nations Security Council... there were four other nations besides the US, France included, who had the power to veto that resolution... nobody stepped up to veto it, and when the council voted, they voted to invade...




I am fully aware of how the war in Iraq unfolded. Do you deny the US invaded Iraq? Whether or not it was part of a coalition or not really makes no odds.

Anyway before you get your Uncle Sam knickers in an even bigger twist than they are already in can I just point out that although it is obvious the US has the largest role to play in this whole sorry affair I am well aware that responsibility is shared by the west in general.

Quote:

I think its obvious that the general public was told some pretty big lies, but its just as obvious that the other members of the Security Council were in on the lies... lying to the public about the reasons to go to war is nothing new under the sun... remember the Maine?




Does that make it alright then? Should we all just follow your enlightened lead and bend over and wait to be shafted by our governments because "it is nothing new under the snn"?

I really dont see how you can be so blase about a pack of lies which has lead to the deaths of so many innocent people. But hey at least most of the dead arent Americans eh?

Quote:

Since when does morality play a part in military decisions?





I was referring to your opinion that is better to fight US wars on Non-US soil as being "Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.
"

Do you really beleive that morality and military should be completely divorced in a civilllised society? If so I would be fascinated to hear your defense of this idea.

Quote:

its called a treaty... you should look up treaties, they are legal documents that nations sign with one another to provide for the common defense of both in cse one is attacked...




Dont be obtuse. Which specific treaty forced the US to intervene when Iraq invaded Kuwait?

I wasnt aware that there was one.

Quote:


and i've already said go suck an egg... it's obvious that the people of iraq fared worse under sanctions than they did without them... because their leaders diverted every cent that was supposed to provide for the welfare of the people and used the money to buy golden toilet bowls...




So the people of Iraq fared worse under sanctions because of all the golden toilet bowls? (you seem a little obsessed with the golden toilet bowls by the way!)

So, pre sanctions, certain diseases did not really exist in Iraq but during sanctions thousands died as these diseases returned, and the reason for this? Not the sanctions themselves but....golden toilet bowls!! Seems so obvious doesnt it??!!

What is obvious to me is that the sanctions definitely had a negative affect on the Iraqi people, even Phred agrees with this! Therefore those who chose to impose these sanctions must accept some responsiblility for the affects.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4908198 - 11/08/05 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

As I stated, you have provided one alleged quote from a single broken link. What you need is more evidence. As yet you havn't got a leg to stand on.




The readers of this thread can see I have provided evidence from three separate sources, each with active links. The UN Secretary-General's September 4, 1997 "90 Day Report" is the fourth source.

Quote:

As I have requested several times, can you provide a single source other than your own mind, that states the importation of chlorine into Iraq wasn't prohibited?




See above. The readers of this thread are capable of concluding that if UNICEF (a UN organization) was supervising the importation of chlorine into Iraq, then chlorine was being imported into Iraq with the UN's blessing.

Quote:

I don't "claim" this, I provide evidence from the experts running the water treatment plants




Ah. The famous Alex213 "experts" dodge. What criteria do you utilize in order to determine who qualifies as an "expert", Alex213? From what I can see, the only necessity for someone to qualify as an "expert" in your mind is for someone to agree with your fantasy of the moment. It never seems to occur to you that in a regime where people who thwarted Hussein's will were routinely tortured and killed (and in many cases were forced to watch their families tortured and killed) officials in charge of various departments might say whatever it was Hussein directed them to say.

What is your rationale for dismissing what Pierrette Vu Thi and Colin Rowat had to say on the matter? How is it that the Pierrette Vu Thi doesn't qualify as an Alex213-certified "expert"? She was "on the ground" in Iraq, after all. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that she explained for the public record how every cylinder of chlorine entering Iraq was painstakingly tracked from entry to final destination within Iraq, would it?

Quote:

Again, you rely on one quote from one broken link. Do you have any other evidence to support your case?




Three sources, all with active links. Plus the UN Secretary-General's Sept 4, 1997 "90 Day Report", paragraphs 19 and 37. That makes four.

Quote:

I didn't "claim" anything. I asked you to support your case and provide evidence that two people with completely different addresses, one of which who calls himself "Dr", while the other does not are the same person. Please do so.




The readers of this thread realize that "Colin Rowat" is not a particularly common name. Not as common as Joe Smith or Paul Robertson, for example. I've been on this planet for over half a century, travelled around a bit, and met thousands of people from literally dozens of countries. Yet I have never met even a single Colin Rowat, let alone two of them, let alone two of them posting to a single specialized website where a Colin Rowat is listed as a co-ordinator for the organization running the website.

If you wish to believe they are two different individuals with exactly the same name and exactly the same interests posting with exactly the same writing style on the same website, you are of course free to believe this. None of the other readers of the thread do.

Quote:

Don't be childish.




I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine who is being childish in this exchange, Alex213.

Quote:

You have provided absolutely no evidence to support your case.




I have provided evidence (with functioning links) from a co-ordinator of an anti-UN Sanctions organization, from the UNICEF program co-ordinator in Iraq, from an organization which tracks (and hosts entire documents regarding) US and UN military and security-related issues, and I have referred you to the relevant paragraphs of the UN Secretary-General's September 4, 1997 "90 Day Report".

The readers of this thread can determine for themselves who has provided the more credible sources.

Quote:

I have provided you with several statements by water treatment experts on the ground in Iraq stating the importation of Chlorine is prohibited.




Ah yes. The Iraqi "experts" living under a reign of terror who had no reason whatsoever to lie about this matter. I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine the worth of their claims.

Quote:

Until you can counter this you are going nowhere and you know it.




I am quite content to let the readers of this thread decide for themselves whose "experts" are the more credible, Alex213.



Phred


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OfflineYatchak
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Registered: 11/02/05
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Last seen: 16 years, 10 days
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4908557 - 11/08/05 12:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I dont know guys, but from were I see it, far away from the US.. I do believe the US is responsible for lots of shit happening in Iraq..
and soon happening in Iran.

I dont believe your media and government are being honest with what they show and say, they do choose what to show you, how to show it and when. From out hire we can see things you cant!!! (the other way around is also true)
Many American friends told me about massive protest in LA, and NY against war, bush, etc.. never shown in CNN International or any other media, perhaps wanting us to think that the USA is in war and no one there is against it.
Also, I'm sure they haven't shown all the protest around the world against this war.  We had a huge peaceful protest, everyone dressed in white..  .. the march ended up in fornt of the US embassy. Same thing happen in every other country in this big continent.
You can also see how Bush was received in Argentina, Brazil and some other country this past week. Not with flowers and great honors, but like a dictator, a new Hittler.

personally I dont care much aboute him nor talk agianst him, just writting down what Ive seen on peoples reactions this days.

I personally don't have anything against the US, ( I love you guys) but believe me the rest of the world do. its so hard being an American around hire!!!  if you travel it is recommend (by tourist agencies around the world) to place a Canadian flag in your bag pack!!!
Just take walk around any street in any country and surly you will find graffiti against US Government, Bush and unfairly USA in general.

Sadly people around the world, most of them, tend to generalize the situation and consider ALL Americans part of an evil empire that wishes to gain world dominion.

I hurd an Iraqi reporter say once that the only people in power to stop the US abusive expancion is the same American people.  very true. No other nation has the power to do so. I do believe the USA is about to loose a war that wont be fought with weapons but with outrageous Americans that will start to speak the truth.  aware Politicians, aware FBI agents, CIA agents, soldiers, generals, common people too.




:bigblunt:


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Invisiblepsiclops
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Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 1,965
Loc: PNW
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4911648 - 11/09/05 12:10 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The only crime the US Government has committed, regarding Hussein?
Not taking him donw long ago.




How about the crime of supporting him and looking the other way while he commited some of the crimes which will no doubt be brought up in his forthcoming trials?....while the scumpigs like Rumsfeld will shake their heads at the horror of the crimes even though they knew it was happening at the time.




Thank you for paraphrasing what I had previously said.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4911748 - 11/09/05 12:25 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

awesome


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 11 days
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4912467 - 11/09/05 07:42 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Where did you previously say that?


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