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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4878997 - 11/01/05 12:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

could have bought chlorine instead of weapons and golden toilet bowls

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4879065 - 11/01/05 12:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
and the Iraqi gov't not distributing the aid to their citizens or caring for their welfare in general.

I'm not so sure about that. The reports I saw said there was no evidence of the Iraqis with-holding anything. There simply wasn't the medicines or food in the first place.




Which reports were these?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4879202 - 11/01/05 12:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.




Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions. The importation of chlorine was, however, monitored by the UN. It was a huge pain in the ass for UN workers, who complained the tracking of it sucked up valuable time that could have been better utilized on other things.

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had Hussein not decided to spend Iraq's money building dozens of palaces and maintaining a gigantic army.


Phred


--------------------


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Invisiblebukkake
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Registered: 05/28/05
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879507 - 11/01/05 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
And of course we've known all along that had Hussein honored the commitments he assumed under the conditional ceasefire the sanctions would have been lifted fourteen years ago and he'd still be President of Iraq.



Sanctions would have never been lifted by Clinton and Bush was intent on conquering Iraq the day he stepped into office. Saddam was a defenseless, shambled threat since 1991.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: bukkake]
    #4879562 - 11/01/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sanctions would have never been lifted by Clinton ....




On what do you base that opinion?

If Hussein had promptly complied with the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement, what leg would Clinton have to stand on in insisting sanctions continue?




Phred


--------------------


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879654 - 11/01/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.




Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions. The importation of chlorine was, however monitored by the UN. It was a huge pain in the ass for UN workers, who complained the tracking of it sucked up valuable time that could have been better utilized on other things.

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had Hussein not decided to spend Iraq's money building dozens of palaces and maintaining a gigantic army.


Phred




Thats funny, I distinctly remember you having to educate alex on this exact matter before. Maybe even two times in the past. Still he pulls this crap. However, it could have been someone else, i doubt it though.

Honestly, I'm even surprised you responded to Alex and exclusive in this thread considering how many times this topic has come and gone.

The amount of blatantly false information (intentionally) posted in this forum on a daily basis is disgusting.

And seriously, a 4 year old news article? wtf?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: d33p]
    #4879736 - 11/01/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Honestly, I'm even surprised you responded to Alex and exclusive in this thread considering how many times this topic has come and gone.




Alex213 registered in August of this year. My last post on the topic of chlorine was some time prior to that, in the course of a discussion with Alex123 (who later had his username changed to Xlea321 by an administrator).

You simply confused the two. No biggie.




Phred


--------------------


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879786 - 11/01/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Alex213 registered in August of this year. My last post on the topic of chlorine was some time prior to that, in the course of a discussion with Alex123 (who later had his username changed to Xlea321 by an administrator).

You simply confused the two. No biggie.

Phred




Oh, its two different people. I see, my mistake.  :wink:


--------------------
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bang bang


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879791 - 11/01/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
On what do you base that opinion?




Quote:

Even though Iraq had met its obligations to destroy or render harmless its weapons of mass destruction as per UN Security Council Resolution 687 as early as 1998, America knew that its policy of regime change could not be fulfilled once the sanctions were lifted. Therefore, as US Secretary of State Christopher Warren stated in 1994, "The US does not believe that Iraq's compliance with ... Resolution 687 is enough to justify lifting the embargo."

His successor, Madeleine K. Albright, made the same declaration in a major policy speech at Georgetown University on 26 March 1997.




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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: bukkake]
    #4880389 - 11/01/05 06:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Where is that quote from? Because the UN in no way shape or form considered Hussein to have met his obligations re providing proof of destruction of its existing WMD stocks and programs -- ever -- and certainly not in 1998.

The UN inspection team withdrew in 1998 not because they had received the necessary proof, but because the head of the team (Charles Butler) determined there was no point staying when Hussein was giving them the runaround. This is a matter of public record.




Phred


--------------------


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882099 - 11/02/05 12:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

plus i think it's important to note that the UN did not ask for proof of anything, they just wanted access to inspect specific areas and buildings that the iraqis refused them access to... had the inspectors been given access to these areas, the entire war could very wll have been averted...


--------------------
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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882230 - 11/02/05 01:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions.

Source?

You're absolutely sure Chlorine wasn't banned as "dual-use"?

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had

Manufacturing something that according to Bush could be used as a chemical weapon? Would that have been wise?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: d33p]
    #4882267 - 11/02/05 01:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The amount of blatantly false information (intentionally) posted in this forum on a daily basis is disgusting

I agree. It is.

A little reading for you:

How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
by Thomas J. Nagy

Over the last two years, I've discovered documents of the Defense Intelligence Agency proving beyond a doubt that, contrary to the Geneva Convention, the U.S. government intentionally used sanctions against Iraq to degrade the country's water supply after the Gulf War. The United States knew the cost that civilian Iraqis, mostly children, would pay, and it went ahead anyway.

The primary document, "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," is dated January 22, 1991. It spells out how sanctions will prevent Iraq from supplying clean water to its citizens.

"Iraq depends on importing specialized equipment and some chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily mineralized and frequently brackish to saline," the document states. "With no domestic sources of both water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will continue attempts to circumvent United Nations Sanctions to import these vital commodities. Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."

The document goes into great technical detail about the sources and quality of Iraq's water supply. The quality of untreated water "generally is poor," and drinking such water "could result in diarrhea," the document says. It notes that Iraq's rivers "contain biological materials, pollutants, and are laden with bacteria. Unless the water is purified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur."

The document notes that the importation of chlorine "has been embargoed" by sanctions. "Recent reports indicate the chlorine supply is critically low."


Food and medicine will also be affected, the document states. "Food processing, electronic, and, particularly, pharmaceutical plants require extremely pure water that is free from biological contaminants," it says.

The Geneva Convention is absolutely clear. In a 1979 protocol relating to the "protection of victims of international armed conflicts," Article 54, it states: "It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove, or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies, and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive."

But that is precisely what the U.S. government did, with malice aforethought. It "destroyed, removed, or rendered useless" Iraq's "drinking water installations and supplies." The sanctions, imposed for a decade largely at the insistence of the United States, constitute a violation of the Geneva Convention. They amount to a systematic effort to, in the DIA's own words, "fully degrade" Iraq's water sources.

At a House hearing on June 7, Representative Cynthia McKinney, Democrat of Georgia, referred to the document "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities" and said: "Attacking the Iraqi public drinking water supply flagrantly targets civilians and is a violation of the Geneva Convention and of the fundamental laws of civilized nations."

Over the last decade, Washington extended the toll by continuing to withhold approval for Iraq to import the few chemicals and items of equipment it needed in order to clean up its water supply.

Last summer, Representative Tony Hall, Democrat of Ohio, wrote to then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright "about the profound effects of the increasing deterioration of Iraq's water supply and sanitation systems on its children's health." Hall wrote, "The prime killer of children under five years of age--diarrheal diseases--has reached epidemic proportions, and they now strike four times more often than they did in 1990. . . . Holds on contracts for the water and sanitation sector are a prime reason for the increases in sickness and death. Of the eighteen contracts, all but one hold was placed by the U.S. government. The contracts are for purification chemicals, chlorinators, chemical dosing pumps, water tankers, and other equipment. . . . I urge you to weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation."

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0808-07.htm


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4882278 - 11/02/05 02:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

chlorine is a red herring... in order to use chlorine effectively, you need plumbing... iraqis get their water from wells and water tanks, with the water being trucked in or carried from other sources... filtration could purify this water, if they chose to pursue the technology... instead they put all their development funds into trying to hit israel with a warhead...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882285 - 11/02/05 02:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Because the UN in no way shape or form considered Hussein to have met his obligations re providing proof of destruction of its existing WMD stocks and programs -- ever -- and certainly not in 1998.


Source?

I certainly seem to remember Powell and Rice saying similar things regarding Iraq and WMD before the propaganda campaign was started.

The UN inspection team withdrew in 1998 not because they had received the necessary proof, but because the head of the team (Charles Butler) determined there was no point staying when Hussein was giving them the runaround

And because his team had been fatally compromised by US intelligence agents.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4882290 - 11/02/05 02:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

in order to use chlorine effectively, you need plumbing...

Well you certainly need a lot of other equipment to build a water treatment plant. The trouble is much of the equipment was also banned as dual-use.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4882364 - 11/02/05 02:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Source?

You're absolutely sure Chlorine wasn't banned as "dual-use"?




Chlorine importation was monitored closely and imported chlorine was tracked once it hit Iraq's borders because it was considered dual use, yes. Domestically-produced chlorine was not subject to such restrictions, but we aren't talking of domestically-produced chlorine, we're talking about imported chlorine.

Of course, even such economic basket cases as Haiti routinely produce their own chlorine, which is why I find it so odd Hussein's regime felt the need to import the stuff, but import it they did.

I would of course be interested to see your link to the relevant section of the UN sanctions banning the importation of chlorine by Iraq, but I know you'll never provide one to us even though you know full well that since you are the one asserting "chlorine was banned by the sanctions", the burden of proof is on you to support your specious claim. It is not up to me to disprove it. This commonly accepted concept is called "burden of proof".

However, since it is such a simple thing to show you are incorrect, this time I'll save you some time by providing to you the same information I provided to Alex123 in this forum on February 9, 2004 --




http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/fallujah_2.htm Iraq chlorine imports

Of the 15 million kg of chlorine imported under the UN Oil-for-Food Program since 1997, Baghdad used only 10 million kg and has 5 million kg in stock, suggesting that some domestically produced chlorine has been diverted to such proscribed activities as CW agent production.







http://www.mideastfacts.com/schneider_sanction_03032001.html tracking of Iraqi chlorine imports

Under U.N. sanctions, UNICEF envoys must ensure that chlorine gas and other commodities arriving in Iraq are used for civilian purposes only. Critical to the supply of clean water but listed under sanctions rules as a "dual use" item with potential military applications, chlorine is tracked canister by canister by an agency more commonly identified with promoting vaccinations.

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."







http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2001/msg00439.html still more on Iraqi chlorine imports

What I do know is that, since the early stages of "oil
for food", provisions have been made to import
chlorine to Iraq.
The 90 day report for Phase II of
in 180 day phases; the UN Secretary-General issues a
report every 90 days, therefore at the half way point
and end point of each phase) is available at:
http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/reports/1997/s1997685.htm

You will see that paragraphs 19 and 37 of this report
(dated 4 September 1997) mention expected arrival of
chlorine
and protocols developed for tracking it in
Iraq. (A complete list of Secretary-General's report
can be found at
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/un.html)

More recently, I have heard from a member of Unmovic,
the new UN weapons inspectors, that there has been
debate about removing chlorine gas from the "1051
lists" of potentially dual-use items. His explanation
was that there is so much chlorine being imported into
Iraq
that (i) it takes up one and a half staff
people's time just to file the applications; (ii) most
of the sites receiving chlorine in Iraq (c. 900?) are
then never inspected; and (iii) the chlorine tracking
protocol has never worked anyhow.

This doesn't answer the question of whether there is
enough chlorine in Iraq, whether due to imports or
domestic production. I don't have an answer to that.
Conversations with UN and NGO staff that I had in
Baghdad in December did suggest that the main problem
with, say, delivering clean drinking water was NOT the
problem of purifying it in a plant: that was
reasonably easy.
Problems arose because (i) the staff
couldn't afford to be at work to maintain and use the
plant properly; (ii) the distribution system was badly
damaged, etc. (I don't recall my clothes smelling of
diesel, but don't have enough experience to know
whether my experience is typical. I do know that our
hotel would clean its floors with some form of petrol
product.)

I hope that this is of some help.

Best,


Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA




So multiple sources refute your assertion that Iraq could not import chlorine under the UN sanctions. You will note the last source I provided is a site that opposed the UN sanctions.

And of course Iraq continued to produce their own chlorine domestically as well. At least one of the above links mentions Iraq's domestic production of chlorine, at the Fallujah II facility and at least three other facilities which were used strictly for civilian chlorine production.

Finally, anyone living in a third world country knows how to purify their own water -- we don't rely on the government to do it for us. A tablespoon of common laundry bleach in a five gallon jug kills all pathogens. I've used this technique for the entire eighteen years I've been living in the Dominican Republic, as do all my neighbors whose water also comes from wells rather than from the Dominican water company. Hell, most of those who get their water from the water company use the bleach technique too, just in case.

The more rural Dominicans sometimes just boil the water they use for drinking and food preparation rather than buy bleach. I presume rural Iraqis would do the same.




Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4882466 - 11/02/05 04:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

plus i think it's important to note that the UN did not ask for proof of anything, they just wanted access to inspect specific areas and buildings that the iraqis refused them access to... had the inspectors been given access to these areas, the entire war could very wll have been averted...




Yes and the little pixies from heaven would have came down and spread peace all over the world...


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Invisiblepsiclops
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4882834 - 11/02/05 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, Gasbutt, there will be huge fires, and horsemen and then you will be judged.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4883126 - 11/02/05 12:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chlorine importation was monitored closely and imported chlorine was tracked once it hit Iraq's borders because it was considered dual use, yes.

So we agree it was sanctioned as being dual-use. Good.

would of course be interested to see your link to the relevant section of the UN sanctions banning the importation of chlorine by Iraq

No problem. Here's the link. It's UN resolution 661. Chlorine was included as dual-use under this resolution.

http://www.dalebroux.com/assemblage/2003-01-28UNResolution661.asp

(Now perhaps you'll link me to the section of the Butler Report where it said "Wilson lied"? I await with interest...)

However, since it is such a simple thing to show you are incorrect

Here's officials at the Baghdad water ministry, gee, I guess they must be "incorrect" too?

In discussions with various officials of Baghdad?s Water Department and a visit to the ?April 7? Water Purification Plant, a delegation from the United States ?Iraq Sanctions Challenge? group (May 8-May 12, 1998) obtained the following picture.

Baghdad had a population of 2.5 million before the Gulf War. This has grown to 5.5 million today. Of the four water purification plants serving Baghdad in 1990, the two smaller plants are not operational due to shortages of parts and supplies caused by the sanctions. The two larger plants are running, but at reduced capacity. No upgrading or expansion has been permitted, due to the sanctions, to meet the doubled demand for water. Before the war the city was providing 132 gallons per day per capita. Now less than 42 gallons per day per capita is available, including water for industry. The United Nations 661 Committee (U.N Resolution 661 established sanctions against Iraq) either prohibits importation of certain items it has declared having potential military use (dual use) or stalls contracts that have been approved under the ?Food for Oil? Memorandum of Understanding between Iraq and the U.N. The Baghdad water department was only allowed a budget of $8 million for a recent 6 month period under the ?Food for Oil? program. Of 9 contracts approved one and one half years ago by the 661 Committee (really the U.S. and Britain) only 2 contracts have been filled.

The ?April 7? Plant, north of Baghdad, takes water from the Tigris River. Only 7 of the 14 pumps are working, pumping 174 million gallons per day. Standard procedures call for pre-chlorination of the incoming water. Pre-war pre-chlorination was done at 2.5 parts per million (ppm). Today, because chlorine is declared a potential military item, manufacture of chlorine is prohibited in Iraq (three chlorine plants were destroyed during the Gulf War). Importation of chlorine has been severely restricted by the U.S.-U.N. sanctions. Only one year ago UNICEF was permitted to provide some liquid chlorine and this is not enough for even the limited amount of water being treated. Pre-chlorination has been eliminated.


http://www.iacenter.org/iraqchallenge/water.htm

Here's Amnesty in discussion with the head of a Baghdad water treatment plant (Surely he'd know!!):

It used to be Kassam's job as head of the Al Watbeh water treatment plant to keep much of Baghdad's drinking water clean. Now it is his mission. But because his country lacks spare parts, electrical capacity, and chlorine (long banned by U.N. sanctions as ?dual use?), most of Iraq's drinking water remains contaminated, even after treatment.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/magazine/iraq.html

Here's another source with experience on the ground in Iraq:

They can't get pesticides and herbicides for their crops or chlorine to
purify their water because they say it can be used for explosives.


http://www.cpa.org.au/garchive/937iraq.htm

Quote:

Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA





Could you inform us all of who "Colin Rowat" is? Some kid who wrote an email to someone on the internet? Is this the best source you have?

It would also be useful to know when Colin was last in Iraq interviewing heads of the water treatment facilities. Thank you.


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