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Offlineexclusive58
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500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"...
    #4878492 - 11/01/05 05:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"We Think the Price Is Worth It"
Media uncurious about Iraq policy's effects- there or here

By Rahul Mahajan




Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press. It's also been cited in the United States in alternative commentary on the September 11 attacks (e.g., Alexander Cockburn, New York Press, 9/26/01).

But a Dow Jones search of mainstream news sources since September 11 turns up only one reference to the quote--in an op-ed in the Orange Country Register (9/16/01). This omission is striking, given the major role that Iraq sanctions play in the ideology of archenemy Osama bin Laden; his recruitment video features pictures of Iraqi babies wasting away from malnutrition and lack of medicine (New York Daily News, 9/28/01). The inference that Albright and the terrorists may have shared a common rationale--a belief that the deaths of thousands of innocents are a price worth paying to achieve one's political ends--does not seem to be one that can be made in U.S. mass media.

It's worth noting that on 60 Minutes, Albright made no attempt to deny the figure given by Stahl--a rough rendering of the preliminary estimate in a 1995 U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) report that 567,000 Iraqi children under the age of five had died as a result of the sanctions. In general, the response from government officials about the sanctions? toll has been rather different: a barrage of equivocations, denigration of U.N. sources and implications that questioners have some ideological axe to grind (Extra!, 3-4/00).

There has also been an attempt to seize on the lowest possible numbers. In early 1998, Columbia University's Richard Garfield published a dramatically lower estimate of 106,000 to 227,000 children under five dead due to sanctions, which was reported in many papers (e.g. New Orleans Times-Picayune, 2/15/98). Later, UNICEF came out with the first authoritative report (8/99), based on a survey of 24,000 households, suggesting that the total ?excess? deaths of children under 5 was about 500,000.

A Dow Jones search shows that, although some papers covered the UNICEF report, none mentioned that the previous figure had been contradicted. In fact, papers continue to cite the obsolete Garfield numbers (Baltimore Sun, 9/24/01).



WHO'S TO BLAME?


The summer of 2001 saw a revival of long-discredited claims that sanctions are not to blame for Iraq's suffering, but that Saddam Hussein bears sole responsibility--an argument put forward in a State Department report (8/99) issued shortly after the UNICEF report on the deaths of children. Seizing on the fact that infant mortality had decreased in northern Iraq, which is under U.N. administration, while more than doubling in the rest of the country, where the government of Iraq is in charge, the State Department accused Baghdad of wide-scale misappropriation of funds from Iraqi oil sales earmarked for humanitarian purposes.

Michael Rubin of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, who spent nine months as a private citizen in northern Iraq, has pushed this argument in at least eight op-eds in papers ranging from the Wall Street Journal (8/9/01) to the Los Angeles Times (8/12/01). These op-eds follow the same basic theme: Since conditions in the north of Iraq are much better than the rest of the country, Saddam must be taking oil-for-food money and using it to buy weapons; Iraqis don't want sanctions lifted, they want Saddam out; the U.S. should support the overthrow of Saddam.

In fact, oil-for-food money is administered by the U.N., and disbursed directly from a U.S. bank account to foreign suppliers, so direct misappropriation of funds is impossible. Allegations about misappropriation of goods on the other end have repeatedly been denied by U.N. officials administering the program in Iraq (e.g. Denis Halliday, press release, 9/20/99), a fact that has garnered virtually no media coverage (Extra!, 3-4/00).

The disparity between north and south in Iraq has to do primarily with structural factors not considered in mainstream media coverage, including the fact that the north, Iraq's breadbasket, is far less dependent on imported food. Per capita, citizens of the north receive 50 percent more oil-for-food relief, and much more humanitarian aid.

While Rubin was given space for his misrepresentation of the effects of sanctions, critics of the sanctions were virtually shut out of the debate. When the Bush administration put forward a proposal for a new, supposedly less deadly embargo known as "smart sanctions," only one major newspaper (Seattle Times, 5/14/01) carried an op-ed that criticized the plan for not doing enough to help the Iraqi people. Among those who could not get published were Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, both former coordinators of the U.N. oil-for-food program who resigned because the program failed to prevent the humanitarian disaster caused by sanctions.



BIOLOGICAL WARFARE?


With renewed concern about biological warfare in the U.S., it's worth noting an instance of the use of disease for military purposes that has gone almost uncovered. Last year, Thomas Nagy of Georgetown University unearthed a Defense Intelligence Agency document entitled "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," which was circulated to all major allied commands one day after the Gulf War started. It analyzed the weaknesses of the Iraqi water treatment system, the effects of sanctions on a damaged system and the health effects of untreated water on the Iraqi populace. Mentioning that chlorine is embargoed under the sanctions, it speculates that "Iraq could try convincing the United Nations or individual countries to exempt water treatment supplies from sanctions for humanitarian reasons," something that the United States disallowed for many years.

Combined with the fact that nearly every large water treatment plant in the country was attacked during the Gulf War, and seven out of eight dams destroyed, this suggests a deliberate targeting of the Iraqi water supply for "postwar leverage," a concept U.S. government officials admitted was part of military planning in the Gulf War (Washington Post, 6/23/91).

A Dow Jones search for 2000 finds only one mention of this evidence in an American paper--and that in a letter to the editor (Austin American-Statesman, 10/01/00). Subsequent documents unearthed by Nagy (The Progressive, 8/10/01) suggest that the plan to destroy water treatment, then to restrict chlorine and other necessary water treatment supplies, was done with full knowledge of the explosion of water-borne disease that would result. "There are no operational water and sewage treatment plants and the reported incidence of diarrhea is four times above normal levels," one post-war assessment reported; "further infectious diseases will spread due to inadequate water treatment and poor sanitation," another predicted.

Combine this with harsh and arbitrary restrictions on medicines, the destruction of Iraq's vaccine facilities, and the fact that, until this summer, vaccines for common infectious diseases were on the so-called "1051 list" of substances in practice banned from entering Iraq. Deliberately creating the conditions for disease and then withholding the treatment is little different morally from deliberately introducing a disease-causing organism like anthrax, but no major U.S. paper seems to have editorialized against the U.S. engaging in biological warfare--or even run a news article reporting Nagy's evidence that it had done so. (The Madison Capitol Times--8/14/01--and the Idaho Statesman--10/2/01--ran op-eds that cited Nagy?s work.)



DECREASED SAFETY?


While there has never been much sustained attention in U.S. media to the costs of sanctions inside Iraq, one might expect the renewed concern for safety to occasion critical re-appraisal of whether U.S. policy towards Iraq contributes to or undermines American security. But there has been no such re-examination of, for example, the December 1998 bombing campaign known as "Desert Fox."

Contrary to much subsequent reporting, Iraq did not expel U.N. weapons inspectors in December 1998; rather, the U.S. withdrew them in preparation for conducting the unprovoked, unauthorized military strike. Many critics at the time suggested that this would make it impossible to conduct future inspections--especially after it was revealed that the CIA had been using weapons inspection as a cover for military espionage (Washington Post, 1/6/99; Extra!, 3-4/99)--rendering verification that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction impossible. This analysis got little play in the media at that time.

The de-stabilizing effect of the airstrikes was evaluated at the time by analysts like the Merchant International Group (London Times, 1/1/99) as likely to increase the threat of terrorism. Yet more recent U.S. policies have followed a similar approach. In July 2001, the U.S. decided to dump a proposed protocol for inspections and other mechanisms designed to give teeth to the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, preferring instead to rely on surveillance and espionage coupled with unilateral enforcement (New York Times, 7/25/01)--presumably through more strikes like Desert Fox, and like the August 1998 bombing of the El Shifa plant in Sudan, which turned out to produce pharmaceuticals, not chemical weapons. Since then, it has been reported that U.S. bioweapons research "pushes" the limits of the 1972 treaty, and that the Pentagon is even planning to produce a new strain of anthrax, ostensibly to test anti-anthrax procedures (New York Times, 9/4/01).

Even before the September 11 attacks, bombing of Iraq had dramatically increased. In February 2001, two dozen U.S. and British planes attacked Iraqi radar installations, some of them out of the "no-fly" zones. In August and early September, there were at least six more pre-planned attacks to degrade Iraqi air defense. This was part of a comprehensive plan for multiple strikes, with a U.S. government official quoted (on MSNBC, 9/14/01) as saying "Hitting targets one by one doesn't draw the same kind of attention or reaction. It takes longer, but it should eventually get the job done." It's certainly true that the bombing campaign didn't receive much notice from a Gary Condit-fixated media.

Independent military analysts like George Friedman of Stratfor (a private intelligence company) had concluded that this sustained attack on Iraqi air defense was a prelude to another major bombing like 1998's Desert Fox. This is particularly relevant once again, with frenzied attempts by commentators to link Iraq and bin Laden, or to assert that such a connection wasn't necessary to justify a renewed bombing of Baghdad (William F. Buckley, National Review, 10/9/01). Laurie Mylroie, an analyst noted for a 1987 New Republic article urging the U.S. to support Saddam Hussein ("Back Iraq," 4/27/87), has been making her rounds of the Sunday morning talk shows and op-ed pages (e.g., Wall Street Journal, 9/13/01; CNN Crossfire, 9/27/01) peddling her book, Study of Revenge, claiming that Iraq was behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, based on the questionable analysis of the identity of one man.

TV's drive to convict Iraq may have something to do with the fact that Iraq has real targets for bombing campaigns, unlike Afghanistan, which is already in ruins after more than 20 years of U.S., Soviet and other foreign meddling. Although no immediate plans to bomb Iraq have been revealed, if the Bush administration follows the advice of hawkish pundits like William Kristol and Fred Barnes, don't expect U.S. journalists to do a better job than they have so far in explaining the bombing's impact on the people of Iraq--and on U.S. security.



http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878509 - 11/01/05 06:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press.

...

Combined with the fact that nearly every large water treatment plant in the country was attacked during the Gulf War, and seven out of eight dams destroyed, this suggests a deliberate targeting of the Iraqi water supply for "postwar leverage," a concept U.S. government officials admitted was part of military planning in the Gulf War (Washington Post, 6/23/91).

...

Combine this with harsh and arbitrary restrictions on medicines, the destruction of Iraq's vaccine facilities, and the fact that, until this summer, vaccines for common infectious diseases were on the so-called "1051 list" of substances in practice banned from entering Iraq. Deliberately creating the conditions for disease and then withholding the treatment is little different morally from deliberately introducing a disease-causing organism like anthrax, but no major U.S. paper seems to have editorialized against the U.S. engaging in biological warfare--or even run a news article reporting Nagy's evidence that it had done so. (The Madison Capitol Times--8/14/01--and the Idaho Statesman--10/2/01--ran op-eds that cited Nagy?s work.)



And you wonder why they're mad!!??

Shit, I'm so disgusted by all of this. And even more by the fact that I only learn about this today.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878515 - 11/01/05 06:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the US seems to be a convenient scapegoat for the deaths of these children... but is the US really to blame? The united nations made provisions for the feeding and care of these children in the oil-for-food program... the iraqi leadership chose to divert those funds for other purposes... the iraqi leadership also chose to build extravagant palaces for their leaders, while spending little or nothing on the welfare of their citizens... i find it appalling that there was money enough for golden toilet bowls and huge statues and murals of saddam, but no money for food and medicine for the children... it was not the US that made these spending decisions...


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Offlinekotik
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4878529 - 11/01/05 06:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thats funny, i was under the impression we put saddam in there in the first place, and we left him in because he was our lapdog.

even funnier, but that almost sounds the same as what we did for osama.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: kotik]
    #4878535 - 11/01/05 06:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

regardless of who did what to put whom in power, saddam still had the responsibility to act as chief executive of that nation, and to provide for the welfare of his people... he shirked that responsibility, while living in a state of luxurious indulgence...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878649 - 11/01/05 08:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

We have learned so much in the four years since that opinion piece was written that I question your reason for posting it.

We now know the entire Oil for Food program was hopelessly corrupt practically from the beginning. We know the "500,000 dead Iraqi babies" claim is bogus as well.

And of course we've known all along that had Hussein honored the commitments he assumed under the conditional ceasefire the sanctions would have been lifted fourteen years ago and he'd still be President of Iraq.




Phred


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4878684 - 11/01/05 09:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
We now know the entire Oil for Food program was hopelessly corrupt practically from the beginning. We know the "500,000 dead Iraqi babies" claim is bogus as well.






source?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878699 - 11/01/05 09:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Source for which? The Oil for Food scam? Good grief... that's been all over the news for over a year now. The final report was just released a few days ago!

Or do you mean a source for the bogus 500,000 dead Iraq babies scam?



Phred


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4878710 - 11/01/05 09:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
the US seems to be a convenient scapegoat for the deaths of these children...




Actually, Saddam has always been the convenient scapegoat for their deaths.

Quote:

but is the US really to blame?




I don't know, consider the fact that they've bombed practically all the water supplies, that they've bombed medecine facilities, that they haven't allowed cheap medicine to be sent, that they haven't allowed chlrorine to be sent, and alot of other things i'm forgetting...you be the judge.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4878714 - 11/01/05 09:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

source showing that the 500,000 dead is bogus.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878798 - 11/01/05 10:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The question now is: what has been more deadly, Saddam or the embargo?

According to the UN, from 500,000 to 1 million Iraqis have died because of the embargo. The humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday, quit his job, qualifying the program as a genocide.

Here was the logic of the program, according to Halliday: If you hurt the iraqi people and if you kill its children, it will rise with anger and overthrow its dictator. A theory that the US tried to put in action during 12 years. In 1991, they systematically bombed the water system, the sewers, the filtration system, and even power stations. For the decade afterwards, Iraqis had to live without drinkable water. All kinds of diseases vehiculed by dirty water were appearing everywhere. The effects were disastrous.

By acting this way, did the Americans know they were going to provoke so many deaths? A 1991 document from the pentagon, called "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities", shows the answer is positive. It calculates that the demolition of water networks would provoke massive deaths and epidemics.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878806 - 11/01/05 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Here's one of the better articles explaining the complete genesis from start to finish of the bogus figures --

http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.mw.the.shtml

It's well worth reading because it covers not just the broadly misinterpreted UNICEF child mortality studies, but prior efforts by Hussein's regime to fabricate child mortality figures. To their credit, most reasonable people were suspicious of the disinformation campaign initiated by the Ba'athists, so those early fabrications are rarely relied upon any longer to support the brainwashed belief of Lefties that there really were half a million Iraqi kids killed by the UN sanctions. Instead, most parrot the misquoting of various "analysts" of UNICEF's work, despite UNICEF's efforts to correct those misinterpretations.

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility -- http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1999/msg00462.html --

Quote:

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."




If you click the link at the end of the page I linked to, you will be led to a .pdf file of the entire UNICEF report. It makes for some interesting reading.





Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878813 - 11/01/05 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

According to the UN, from 500,000 to 1 million Iraqis have died because of the embargo.




Incorrect. "The UN" has said no such thing. See my last post.

Various people -- including Dennis Halliday -- have misquoted and misinterpreted UNICEF's 1999 report (UNICEF is a UN organization) in an attempt to show that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children died as a result of UN sanctions, but the UN as an organization has never said such a thing. Nor has UNICEF.




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878842 - 11/01/05 11:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The US did nt put Saddam in power. They helped the Baath party to take over, and once that happened, Saddam strong-armed his way to the top of the party.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4878858 - 11/01/05 11:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The US Government does not burn people in tire stacks. They DO spend alot of money on needless things, and money seems to disappear. But they ensure that our Agriculture is stable and that trade is done to help the people not solely the leaders.

How can you be serious when you claim that the US is to blaim for Hussein's doings.

The only crime the US Government has committed, regarding Hussein?
Not taking him donw long ago.

Even now, the decision to take down Saddam has been criticized by millions of cry babies, just like you exclusive. Who read what other cry babies write. If you would stop believing everything you read, from the liberal press, you would come to the coclusion that it would be foolish to think that someone else is resposible for what Saddam Hussein has done.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4878894 - 11/01/05 11:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nowhere did I see something mentioning that the approximative number of 500,000 is incorrect. Maybe you could be more specific.

What I do see Madeline Albright not denying the number of 500,000, and evn saying that these deaths was worth it.

This isn't about left vs. right or some dumb shit like that, this is about rich Western governments making tons of profits on other countries' tragedies and wars.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878965 - 11/01/05 11:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nowhere did I see something mentioning that the approximative number of 500,000 is incorrect. Maybe you could be more specific.


Outside of right-wing op-eds you don't tend to see the figure questioned. And that was only up to the mid-90's. There were many more years of sanctions and bombing after that.

Not least the ferocious bombing campaign in the 10 months prior to the invasion of Iraq when Bush was hoping Saddam would respond and give him a better excuse to invade than non-existent WMD.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4878969 - 11/01/05 11:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The deaths were caused by a combination of the sanctions, an ineffective and corrupt UN program, and the Iraqi gov't not distributing the aid to their citizens or caring for their welfare in general.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4878980 - 11/01/05 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

it didn't have to be so... saddam could have had his people digging wells and repairing aqueducts rather than building statues and painting murals... he could have bought chlorine instead of weapons and golden toilet bowls... nothing that the iraqis went without was unavailable to them, they just didn't buy what they needed and they didn't put their people to work productively...


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4878993 - 11/01/05 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

and the Iraqi gov't not distributing the aid to their citizens or caring for their welfare in general.

I'm not so sure about that. The reports I saw said there was no evidence of the Iraqis with-holding anything. There simply wasn't the medicines or food in the first place.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4878997 - 11/01/05 12:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

could have bought chlorine instead of weapons and golden toilet bowls

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4879065 - 11/01/05 12:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
and the Iraqi gov't not distributing the aid to their citizens or caring for their welfare in general.

I'm not so sure about that. The reports I saw said there was no evidence of the Iraqis with-holding anything. There simply wasn't the medicines or food in the first place.




Which reports were these?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4879202 - 11/01/05 12:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.




Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions. The importation of chlorine was, however, monitored by the UN. It was a huge pain in the ass for UN workers, who complained the tracking of it sucked up valuable time that could have been better utilized on other things.

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had Hussein not decided to spend Iraq's money building dozens of palaces and maintaining a gigantic army.


Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879507 - 11/01/05 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
And of course we've known all along that had Hussein honored the commitments he assumed under the conditional ceasefire the sanctions would have been lifted fourteen years ago and he'd still be President of Iraq.



Sanctions would have never been lifted by Clinton and Bush was intent on conquering Iraq the day he stepped into office. Saddam was a defenseless, shambled threat since 1991.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: bukkake]
    #4879562 - 11/01/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sanctions would have never been lifted by Clinton ....




On what do you base that opinion?

If Hussein had promptly complied with the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement, what leg would Clinton have to stand on in insisting sanctions continue?




Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879654 - 11/01/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Chlorine was banned by the sanctions.




Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions. The importation of chlorine was, however monitored by the UN. It was a huge pain in the ass for UN workers, who complained the tracking of it sucked up valuable time that could have been better utilized on other things.

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had Hussein not decided to spend Iraq's money building dozens of palaces and maintaining a gigantic army.


Phred




Thats funny, I distinctly remember you having to educate alex on this exact matter before. Maybe even two times in the past. Still he pulls this crap. However, it could have been someone else, i doubt it though.

Honestly, I'm even surprised you responded to Alex and exclusive in this thread considering how many times this topic has come and gone.

The amount of blatantly false information (intentionally) posted in this forum on a daily basis is disgusting.

And seriously, a 4 year old news article? wtf?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: d33p]
    #4879736 - 11/01/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Honestly, I'm even surprised you responded to Alex and exclusive in this thread considering how many times this topic has come and gone.




Alex213 registered in August of this year. My last post on the topic of chlorine was some time prior to that, in the course of a discussion with Alex123 (who later had his username changed to Xlea321 by an administrator).

You simply confused the two. No biggie.




Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879786 - 11/01/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Alex213 registered in August of this year. My last post on the topic of chlorine was some time prior to that, in the course of a discussion with Alex123 (who later had his username changed to Xlea321 by an administrator).

You simply confused the two. No biggie.

Phred




Oh, its two different people. I see, my mistake.  :wink:


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4879791 - 11/01/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
On what do you base that opinion?




Quote:

Even though Iraq had met its obligations to destroy or render harmless its weapons of mass destruction as per UN Security Council Resolution 687 as early as 1998, America knew that its policy of regime change could not be fulfilled once the sanctions were lifted. Therefore, as US Secretary of State Christopher Warren stated in 1994, "The US does not believe that Iraq's compliance with ... Resolution 687 is enough to justify lifting the embargo."

His successor, Madeleine K. Albright, made the same declaration in a major policy speech at Georgetown University on 26 March 1997.




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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: bukkake]
    #4880389 - 11/01/05 06:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Where is that quote from? Because the UN in no way shape or form considered Hussein to have met his obligations re providing proof of destruction of its existing WMD stocks and programs -- ever -- and certainly not in 1998.

The UN inspection team withdrew in 1998 not because they had received the necessary proof, but because the head of the team (Charles Butler) determined there was no point staying when Hussein was giving them the runaround. This is a matter of public record.




Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882099 - 11/02/05 12:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

plus i think it's important to note that the UN did not ask for proof of anything, they just wanted access to inspect specific areas and buildings that the iraqis refused them access to... had the inspectors been given access to these areas, the entire war could very wll have been averted...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882230 - 11/02/05 01:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chlorine was not banned by the sanctions.

Source?

You're absolutely sure Chlorine wasn't banned as "dual-use"?

And of course, the production of chlorine is such an incredibly low-tech and inexpensive process (run an electric current through brine, collect the gas that bubbles up) that Iraq could have produced as much of it as they wanted had

Manufacturing something that according to Bush could be used as a chemical weapon? Would that have been wise?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: d33p]
    #4882267 - 11/02/05 01:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The amount of blatantly false information (intentionally) posted in this forum on a daily basis is disgusting

I agree. It is.

A little reading for you:

How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
by Thomas J. Nagy

Over the last two years, I've discovered documents of the Defense Intelligence Agency proving beyond a doubt that, contrary to the Geneva Convention, the U.S. government intentionally used sanctions against Iraq to degrade the country's water supply after the Gulf War. The United States knew the cost that civilian Iraqis, mostly children, would pay, and it went ahead anyway.

The primary document, "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," is dated January 22, 1991. It spells out how sanctions will prevent Iraq from supplying clean water to its citizens.

"Iraq depends on importing specialized equipment and some chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily mineralized and frequently brackish to saline," the document states. "With no domestic sources of both water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will continue attempts to circumvent United Nations Sanctions to import these vital commodities. Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."

The document goes into great technical detail about the sources and quality of Iraq's water supply. The quality of untreated water "generally is poor," and drinking such water "could result in diarrhea," the document says. It notes that Iraq's rivers "contain biological materials, pollutants, and are laden with bacteria. Unless the water is purified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur."

The document notes that the importation of chlorine "has been embargoed" by sanctions. "Recent reports indicate the chlorine supply is critically low."


Food and medicine will also be affected, the document states. "Food processing, electronic, and, particularly, pharmaceutical plants require extremely pure water that is free from biological contaminants," it says.

The Geneva Convention is absolutely clear. In a 1979 protocol relating to the "protection of victims of international armed conflicts," Article 54, it states: "It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove, or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies, and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive."

But that is precisely what the U.S. government did, with malice aforethought. It "destroyed, removed, or rendered useless" Iraq's "drinking water installations and supplies." The sanctions, imposed for a decade largely at the insistence of the United States, constitute a violation of the Geneva Convention. They amount to a systematic effort to, in the DIA's own words, "fully degrade" Iraq's water sources.

At a House hearing on June 7, Representative Cynthia McKinney, Democrat of Georgia, referred to the document "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities" and said: "Attacking the Iraqi public drinking water supply flagrantly targets civilians and is a violation of the Geneva Convention and of the fundamental laws of civilized nations."

Over the last decade, Washington extended the toll by continuing to withhold approval for Iraq to import the few chemicals and items of equipment it needed in order to clean up its water supply.

Last summer, Representative Tony Hall, Democrat of Ohio, wrote to then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright "about the profound effects of the increasing deterioration of Iraq's water supply and sanitation systems on its children's health." Hall wrote, "The prime killer of children under five years of age--diarrheal diseases--has reached epidemic proportions, and they now strike four times more often than they did in 1990. . . . Holds on contracts for the water and sanitation sector are a prime reason for the increases in sickness and death. Of the eighteen contracts, all but one hold was placed by the U.S. government. The contracts are for purification chemicals, chlorinators, chemical dosing pumps, water tankers, and other equipment. . . . I urge you to weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation."

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0808-07.htm


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4882278 - 11/02/05 02:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

chlorine is a red herring... in order to use chlorine effectively, you need plumbing... iraqis get their water from wells and water tanks, with the water being trucked in or carried from other sources... filtration could purify this water, if they chose to pursue the technology... instead they put all their development funds into trying to hit israel with a warhead...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4882285 - 11/02/05 02:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Because the UN in no way shape or form considered Hussein to have met his obligations re providing proof of destruction of its existing WMD stocks and programs -- ever -- and certainly not in 1998.


Source?

I certainly seem to remember Powell and Rice saying similar things regarding Iraq and WMD before the propaganda campaign was started.

The UN inspection team withdrew in 1998 not because they had received the necessary proof, but because the head of the team (Charles Butler) determined there was no point staying when Hussein was giving them the runaround

And because his team had been fatally compromised by US intelligence agents.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4882290 - 11/02/05 02:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

in order to use chlorine effectively, you need plumbing...

Well you certainly need a lot of other equipment to build a water treatment plant. The trouble is much of the equipment was also banned as dual-use.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4882364 - 11/02/05 02:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Source?

You're absolutely sure Chlorine wasn't banned as "dual-use"?




Chlorine importation was monitored closely and imported chlorine was tracked once it hit Iraq's borders because it was considered dual use, yes. Domestically-produced chlorine was not subject to such restrictions, but we aren't talking of domestically-produced chlorine, we're talking about imported chlorine.

Of course, even such economic basket cases as Haiti routinely produce their own chlorine, which is why I find it so odd Hussein's regime felt the need to import the stuff, but import it they did.

I would of course be interested to see your link to the relevant section of the UN sanctions banning the importation of chlorine by Iraq, but I know you'll never provide one to us even though you know full well that since you are the one asserting "chlorine was banned by the sanctions", the burden of proof is on you to support your specious claim. It is not up to me to disprove it. This commonly accepted concept is called "burden of proof".

However, since it is such a simple thing to show you are incorrect, this time I'll save you some time by providing to you the same information I provided to Alex123 in this forum on February 9, 2004 --




http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/fallujah_2.htm Iraq chlorine imports

Of the 15 million kg of chlorine imported under the UN Oil-for-Food Program since 1997, Baghdad used only 10 million kg and has 5 million kg in stock, suggesting that some domestically produced chlorine has been diverted to such proscribed activities as CW agent production.







http://www.mideastfacts.com/schneider_sanction_03032001.html tracking of Iraqi chlorine imports

Under U.N. sanctions, UNICEF envoys must ensure that chlorine gas and other commodities arriving in Iraq are used for civilian purposes only. Critical to the supply of clean water but listed under sanctions rules as a "dual use" item with potential military applications, chlorine is tracked canister by canister by an agency more commonly identified with promoting vaccinations.

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."







http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2001/msg00439.html still more on Iraqi chlorine imports

What I do know is that, since the early stages of "oil
for food", provisions have been made to import
chlorine to Iraq.
The 90 day report for Phase II of
in 180 day phases; the UN Secretary-General issues a
report every 90 days, therefore at the half way point
and end point of each phase) is available at:
http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/reports/1997/s1997685.htm

You will see that paragraphs 19 and 37 of this report
(dated 4 September 1997) mention expected arrival of
chlorine
and protocols developed for tracking it in
Iraq. (A complete list of Secretary-General's report
can be found at
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/un.html)

More recently, I have heard from a member of Unmovic,
the new UN weapons inspectors, that there has been
debate about removing chlorine gas from the "1051
lists" of potentially dual-use items. His explanation
was that there is so much chlorine being imported into
Iraq
that (i) it takes up one and a half staff
people's time just to file the applications; (ii) most
of the sites receiving chlorine in Iraq (c. 900?) are
then never inspected; and (iii) the chlorine tracking
protocol has never worked anyhow.

This doesn't answer the question of whether there is
enough chlorine in Iraq, whether due to imports or
domestic production. I don't have an answer to that.
Conversations with UN and NGO staff that I had in
Baghdad in December did suggest that the main problem
with, say, delivering clean drinking water was NOT the
problem of purifying it in a plant: that was
reasonably easy.
Problems arose because (i) the staff
couldn't afford to be at work to maintain and use the
plant properly; (ii) the distribution system was badly
damaged, etc. (I don't recall my clothes smelling of
diesel, but don't have enough experience to know
whether my experience is typical. I do know that our
hotel would clean its floors with some form of petrol
product.)

I hope that this is of some help.

Best,


Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA




So multiple sources refute your assertion that Iraq could not import chlorine under the UN sanctions. You will note the last source I provided is a site that opposed the UN sanctions.

And of course Iraq continued to produce their own chlorine domestically as well. At least one of the above links mentions Iraq's domestic production of chlorine, at the Fallujah II facility and at least three other facilities which were used strictly for civilian chlorine production.

Finally, anyone living in a third world country knows how to purify their own water -- we don't rely on the government to do it for us. A tablespoon of common laundry bleach in a five gallon jug kills all pathogens. I've used this technique for the entire eighteen years I've been living in the Dominican Republic, as do all my neighbors whose water also comes from wells rather than from the Dominican water company. Hell, most of those who get their water from the water company use the bleach technique too, just in case.

The more rural Dominicans sometimes just boil the water they use for drinking and food preparation rather than buy bleach. I presume rural Iraqis would do the same.




Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4882466 - 11/02/05 04:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

plus i think it's important to note that the UN did not ask for proof of anything, they just wanted access to inspect specific areas and buildings that the iraqis refused them access to... had the inspectors been given access to these areas, the entire war could very wll have been averted...




Yes and the little pixies from heaven would have came down and spread peace all over the world...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4882834 - 11/02/05 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, Gasbutt, there will be huge fires, and horsemen and then you will be judged.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4883126 - 11/02/05 12:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chlorine importation was monitored closely and imported chlorine was tracked once it hit Iraq's borders because it was considered dual use, yes.

So we agree it was sanctioned as being dual-use. Good.

would of course be interested to see your link to the relevant section of the UN sanctions banning the importation of chlorine by Iraq

No problem. Here's the link. It's UN resolution 661. Chlorine was included as dual-use under this resolution.

http://www.dalebroux.com/assemblage/2003-01-28UNResolution661.asp

(Now perhaps you'll link me to the section of the Butler Report where it said "Wilson lied"? I await with interest...)

However, since it is such a simple thing to show you are incorrect

Here's officials at the Baghdad water ministry, gee, I guess they must be "incorrect" too?

In discussions with various officials of Baghdad?s Water Department and a visit to the ?April 7? Water Purification Plant, a delegation from the United States ?Iraq Sanctions Challenge? group (May 8-May 12, 1998) obtained the following picture.

Baghdad had a population of 2.5 million before the Gulf War. This has grown to 5.5 million today. Of the four water purification plants serving Baghdad in 1990, the two smaller plants are not operational due to shortages of parts and supplies caused by the sanctions. The two larger plants are running, but at reduced capacity. No upgrading or expansion has been permitted, due to the sanctions, to meet the doubled demand for water. Before the war the city was providing 132 gallons per day per capita. Now less than 42 gallons per day per capita is available, including water for industry. The United Nations 661 Committee (U.N Resolution 661 established sanctions against Iraq) either prohibits importation of certain items it has declared having potential military use (dual use) or stalls contracts that have been approved under the ?Food for Oil? Memorandum of Understanding between Iraq and the U.N. The Baghdad water department was only allowed a budget of $8 million for a recent 6 month period under the ?Food for Oil? program. Of 9 contracts approved one and one half years ago by the 661 Committee (really the U.S. and Britain) only 2 contracts have been filled.

The ?April 7? Plant, north of Baghdad, takes water from the Tigris River. Only 7 of the 14 pumps are working, pumping 174 million gallons per day. Standard procedures call for pre-chlorination of the incoming water. Pre-war pre-chlorination was done at 2.5 parts per million (ppm). Today, because chlorine is declared a potential military item, manufacture of chlorine is prohibited in Iraq (three chlorine plants were destroyed during the Gulf War). Importation of chlorine has been severely restricted by the U.S.-U.N. sanctions. Only one year ago UNICEF was permitted to provide some liquid chlorine and this is not enough for even the limited amount of water being treated. Pre-chlorination has been eliminated.


http://www.iacenter.org/iraqchallenge/water.htm

Here's Amnesty in discussion with the head of a Baghdad water treatment plant (Surely he'd know!!):

It used to be Kassam's job as head of the Al Watbeh water treatment plant to keep much of Baghdad's drinking water clean. Now it is his mission. But because his country lacks spare parts, electrical capacity, and chlorine (long banned by U.N. sanctions as ?dual use?), most of Iraq's drinking water remains contaminated, even after treatment.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/magazine/iraq.html

Here's another source with experience on the ground in Iraq:

They can't get pesticides and herbicides for their crops or chlorine to
purify their water because they say it can be used for explosives.


http://www.cpa.org.au/garchive/937iraq.htm

Quote:

Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA





Could you inform us all of who "Colin Rowat" is? Some kid who wrote an email to someone on the internet? Is this the best source you have?

It would also be useful to know when Colin was last in Iraq interviewing heads of the water treatment facilities. Thank you.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4883147 - 11/02/05 12:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't say anything about chlorine in 661. It only addresses dual-use materials; it doesn't say that chlorine was considered one. Was chlorine banned?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4883172 - 11/02/05 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Read the heads of the Baghdad water plants. Clearly something was prohibiting the importation of chlorine. If it wasn't the UN 661 sanctions, what was it?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4883214 - 11/02/05 12:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Today, because chlorine is declared a potential military item, manufacture of chlorine is prohibited in Iraq (three chlorine plants were destroyed during the Gulf War). Importation of chlorine has been severely restricted by the U.S.-U.N. sanctions.




http://www.iacenter.org/iraqchallenge/water.htm

It looks like you may be right about the chlorine thing. I'd like to know what "severely restricted" means. Is it banned, or what?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4883420 - 11/02/05 01:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

No problem. Here's the link. It's UN resolution 661. Chlorine was included as dual-use under this resolution.




Wrong again. Chlorine is not mentioned in the resolution. For that matter, "dual-use" is not mentioned in the resolution. Nor is there a reference in the resolution to any supporting appendix which might include the words "chlorine" or "dual-use".

And quite clearly chlorine was imported into Iraq and tracked by UN workers -- specifically UNICEF workers -- as shown by the links I provided.

So not only have you failed to support your claim that the UN sanctions prohibited importation of chlorine, you have failed to address the very clear evidence -- the words of UNICEF workers themselves -- that chlorine was in fact imported into Iraq.

Quote:

Here's officials at the Baghdad water ministry, gee, I guess they must be "incorrect" too?




You take the word of Ba'athist regime flunkies over the word of the UNICEF workers riding herd on delivery of chlorine? Not a surprise, since your previous posts indicate your uncritical acceptance of everything the Ba'athist regime proclaimed -- i.e. their claim they didn't gas their Kurds.



Please try again.



Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4884028 - 11/02/05 04:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Where is that quote from? Because the UN in no way shape or form considered Hussein to have met his obligations re providing proof of destruction of its existing WMD stocks and programs -- ever -- and certainly not in 1998.

The UN inspection team withdrew in 1998 not because they had received the necessary proof, but because the head of the team (Charles Butler) determined there was no point staying when Hussein was giving them the runaround. This is a matter of public record.



I am, personally, uncertain if Saddam ever truthfully totally disarmed and destroyed all of his weapons stashes. I do know Saddam's "weapons declaration" before the war noted he had no weapons and as far as is recorded, the US hasn't found any chemical or biological weapons while entrenched in Iraq to this day.

Maybe Saddam was giving UN inspectors the run-around when he was well aware few UNSCOM inspectors were US/UK spies.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: bukkake]
    #4884767 - 11/02/05 07:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How Saddam 'staged' fake baby funerals

The Iraqi dictator says his country's children are dying in their thousands because of the West's embargoes. John Sweeney, in a TV documentary to be shown tonight, says the figures are bogus. Here he reports from Iraq on his findings
Terrorism crisis - Observer special
Observer Worldview

Sunday June 23, 2002
The Observer


The witness against the government of Iraq walked stiffly into the room, metal callipers buckled to heavy medical shoes. They had tortured her two years ago. She is now four.
Her father had been suspected of involvement in a plot to kill Saddam Hussein's psychopathic son, Uday. He fled to the north of Iraq, but the secret police, the mukhabarat, came for his wife, still in Baghdad, and tortured her. When she wouldn't break, they tortured 'Anna' in front of her.

Her father, 'Ali', is a thick-set Iraqi who worked in Saddam's privileged inner circle. He described what they did to her: 'They had a wooden stick. They would squeeze her feet and ask "Has Daddy called you?" - she understood - "Does Daddy contact you?"'

She is a victim of Saddam's brutality, proof that he is prepared to dispense violence against even his country's children. By a cruel irony, her father is also witness to Saddam's efforts to portray those same children as victims of Western sanctions, which he claims have cost hundreds of thousands of young lives.

Osama bin Laden justified the 11 September attack on America by referring to a million dead Iraqi children - killed by sanctions. But there is a belief among many Iraqis that Saddam is inventing the numbers.

Ali, outraged that Saddam's torturers may have crippled his daughter for life, spoke openly about how the regime's propaganda has faked mass baby funerals - 'evidence' of the 7,000 children under five the regime claims are being killed each month by sanctions.

Small coffins, decorated with grisly photographs of dead babies and their ages - 'three days', 'four days', written usefully for the English-speaking media - are paraded through the streets of Baghdad on the roofs of taxis, the procession led by a throng of official mourners.

There is only one problem. Because there are not enough dead babies around, the regime prevents parents from burying infants immediately, in the Muslim tradition, to create more powerful propaganda.

The taxi drivers do what they are told - as everybody does in Saddam's Iraq - to their evident disgust. Before Ali defected to the north, one friend of his, a taxi driver, explained how it worked: 'I went to Najaf [a town 100 miles south of Baghdad] a couple of days ago. I brought back two bodies of children for one of the mass funerals. The smell was very strong.'

Ali continued: 'The taxi driver didn't know how long they'd been in freezers, perhaps six or seven months. The drivers would collect them from the regions and would be informed of when a mass funeral was arranged so they would be ready. Certainly, they would collect bodies of children who had died months before and been held for the mass processions.'

A second, Western source, went to visit visited a Baghdad hospital and, when the official Iraqi minder was absent, was taken to the mortuary. There, a doctor showed the source a number of dead babies, lying stacked in the mortuary, waiting for the next official procession.

Anna was the youngest witness to child torture by the Iraqi government in an investigation, The Mother of All Ironies, to be broadcast by BBC2's Correspondent today. It found six other adult witnesses in the Kurdish safe haven in the north - the only part of Iraq where people are free to speak.

The most chilling witness was one of Saddam's torturers, who was captured spying against the Kurds this year. 'Kamal' told us: 'They would bring the son in front of his parents, who were handcuffed or tied, and would start off with simple methods of torture, such as cigarette burns. Then they started using other methods of torture, more serious ones.

'They would tell the father that they'd slaughter his son, and they'd bring a bayonet out, and if the parents didn't confess they'd kill the child. 'The interrogator has the right to kill the child, or perform any other butchery, whatever's necessary.' And then Kamal chuckled.

It is an absolute of the government of Iraq - and others - that thousands of Iraqi children are dying every month because of sanctions. We managed to get a cameraman to accompany a fact-finding trip into Iraq this year by the Great Britain-Iraq Society, led by its chairman, Labour MP George Galloway.

At the start of the trip Galloway, in Iraq for the ninth time in two-and-a-half years, said: 'Every six minutes an Iraqi child will have died under the embargo. That's every six minutes of every day, of every night, every year for 12 years.'

In 1999 Unicef, in co-operation with the Iraqi government, made a retrospective projection of 500,000 excess child deaths in the 1990s. The projection is open to question. It was based on data from within a regime that tortures children with impunity. All but one of the researchers used by Unicef were employees of the Ministry of Health, according to the Lancet.

The dead babies are blamed by Saddam's regime on cancers and birth defects which first appeared in 1991 and were, it says, caused by depleted uranium weapons. While no one should underestimate the lethality of these weapons and the stupidity of the US military machine, the claim does not make radiological sense. According to Dr Nick Plowman, head of clinical oncology at St Bartholomew's Hospital, London, the claim 'is ridiculous. It flies in the face of everything learnt from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.'

Cancers do not develop overnight. Bombs that fell in 1991 could not have caused cancers or birth defects in that year. Fast leukaemias might occur in four or five years, heavy tumours around now, said Plowman.

Richard Guthrie, a chemical weapons researcher at Sussex University, said: 'It's much more likely to be chemical weapons. There are serious clusters of cancers in the south of Iraq near Basra. In the late Eighties, Basra was almost taken by Iranian human-wave offensives, and Saddam stopped these by dropping chemical weapons on them and, by accident, on his own people.

? John Sweeney's report will be shown in Correspondent on BBC2 at 7.15pm today



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,742303,00.html


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4884802 - 11/02/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The USA didn't put Saddam Hussein in power and did NOT help the Baathists come to power. That is all lies.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4884811 - 11/02/05 07:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

They did help the Baathists come to power.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4884847 - 11/02/05 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The USA did not help the Baathists come to power.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4884851 - 11/02/05 07:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
They did help the Baathists come to power.




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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4886552 - 11/03/05 02:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Wrong again. Chlorine is not mentioned in the resolution.

You misunderstand the nature of the resolution. As I stated Chlorine was designated dual-use UNDER this resolution. That doesn't mean the resolution will list the hundreds upon hundreds of articles that were banned WITHIN the resolution itself. The resolution was passed, then the 661 committee was set up to ban what it felt was necessary.

And quite clearly chlorine was imported into Iraq and tracked by UN workers -- specifically UNICEF workers -- as shown by the links I provided

You have provided one link (that doesn't work) with one quote claimed to be from one UNICEF worker who does not say Chlorine isn't prohibited. Your link is to a notorious propaganda website called "Mideastfacts". Do you have anything more accurate and reliable?

Your other link appears to be written by someone called

Quote:

Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA



 

Can you explain who Mr Rowat is and why you are so desperate to believe him? Is this just a kid who'se written an email on the internet that agrees with something you think? Do you seriously believe that qualifies as a "source"?

I'm afraid doing a frenzied 2 minute google search for anything to support your position isn't an accurate way of ascertaining facts.

So not only have you failed to support your claim that the UN sanctions prohibited importation of chlorine

You are still denying Chlorine was prohibited from importation into Iraq? Seriously?

You take the word of Ba'athist regime flunkies

Can you provide your evidence that the people operating water treatment plants are "regime flunkies"?

over the word of the UNICEF workers riding herd on delivery of chlorine

As I've shown your link (that doesn't work) is to a notorious propaganda site quoting a single UNICEF worker who doesn't say Chlorine isn't prohibited. You must do better. 

since your previous posts indicate your uncritical acceptance of everything the Ba'athist regime proclaimed -- i.e. their claim they didn't gas their Kurds.


:grin:

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrell now phred. Presumably you realise your argument regarding Chlorine is lost anbd need a diversion. I said nothing of the sort. I merely posted an article by a CIA analyst quoting reports from the US Defence Intelligence Agency.

(If you really wish to do so, rather than divert the thread away from your lost argument regarding Chlorine - please start another thread)


Edited by Alex213 (11/03/05 02:15 AM)


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4887263 - 11/03/05 08:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No, Gasbutt, there will be huge fires, and horsemen and then you will be judged.




Hey psiplops are you a real christian loony?!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4887271 - 11/03/05 08:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The only crime the US Government has committed, regarding Hussein?
Not taking him donw long ago.




How about the crime of supporting him and looking the other way while he commited some of the crimes which will no doubt be brought up in his forthcoming trials?....while the scumpigs like Rumsfeld will shake their heads at the horror of the crimes even though they knew it was happening at the time.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4887341 - 11/03/05 09:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

last i heard, supporting your allies and letting run their own internal affairs is the right thing to do... no crime there... those who committed the crimes will stand trial for those crimes, in accordance with Iraqi justice... under saddam's regime, saddam dictated what was legal and what wasn't in his own country... there is no crime in standing by and allowing a dictator to do whatever is legal in his own country, which in saddams case was whatever his people would permit...

a greater crime would be to allow such a dictator unrestricted access to world markets... the sanctions were meant to curtail saddam's ability to wage war against his neighbors, and in that respect, they were successful... their national treasury contained enough to feed and care for the people, or enough to wage war, but not enough for both... the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...

the whole 'sanctions killed the kids' argument hinges on the notion that had saddam had more money available, he could have saved the kids... but would he have done so? It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4888308 - 11/03/05 01:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

their national treasury contained enough to feed and care for the people, or enough to wage war, but not enough for both

Nah, the sanctions disrupted the supply of all kinds of things from water treatment supplies to food to medicines. Even Saddam can't wage war with childrens medicines.

the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...


There were no sanctions after the Iran-Iraq war. 500,000 children didn't die. There were sanctions after the Kuwait invasion. 500,000 children subsequently died. You don't see a link there?

If the sanctions hadn't been in place do you believe so many children would have died?

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...


We'd need a little evidence to back that up.

It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...

History doesn't support that. In the 1970's Iraq had some of the highest living standards in the middle east. Saddam spent way more on education, infrastructure etc than he had to.

Incidentally it's pretty clear he wasn't spending money on WMD as he didn't have any.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4888345 - 11/03/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

You have provided one link (that doesn't work) with one quote claimed to be from one UNICEF worker who does not say Chlorine isn't prohibited. Your link is to a notorious propaganda website called "Mideastfacts". Do you have anything more accurate and reliable?




I provided several links, all of which were working at the time I first provided the same links to Alex123 last year. It appears that in the time since my original post, some of the links have gone bad. That happens on the Internet from time to time.

Here's a link to the same information which is still good. It may not be good a year and a half from now when a hypothetical Alex231 may make yet again the same bogus claim about chlorine importation to Iraq being banned by the UN sanctions, so rather than just provide the link, I will cut and paste the relevant information into this post. The readers can then check my cut and paste, check the original source at the link, and confirm for themselves my cut and paste is accurate. From http://www.nci.org/iraq/iraq-sancs-wp3301.htm --

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Sent here to make life better for Iraqi children, officials with the U.N. Children's Fund (UNICEF) have found themselves forced to play an unexpected role -- as de facto weapons monitors.

Under U.N. sanctions, UNICEF envoys must ensure that chlorine gas and other commodities arriving in Iraq are used for civilian purposes only. Critical to the supply of clean water but listed under sanctions rules as a "dual use" item with potential military applications, chlorine is tracked canister by canister by an agency more commonly identified with promoting vaccinations.

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."




I await your explanation of why you believe Pierrette Vu Thi of UNICEF is lying about tracking chlorine.

Quote:

Can you explain who Mr Rowat is




Since he posted to a website critical of the UN sanctions (one run by the organization "Campaign Against Sanctions in Iraq) I presumed he was not a fan of the sanctions. My presumption may be incorrect, of course. However, he references a UN document (specifically the September 4, 1997 "90 day report") and points out that paragraphs 19 and 37 of this report mention expected arrival of chlorine and protocols developed for tracking it in Iraq. Unfortunately (perhaps due to a reorganization of the UN's website) the link he provides us is no longer active. It was active at the time I first supplied his information in my 2004 post. Perhaps the UN finally got around to redesigning their notoriously hard to navigate site. About time. Still, that September 4, 1997 report issued by the UN Secretary-General is a matter of public record. You could find it if you wish. I had no difficulty finding it. But then again, I like to read what the actual source documents say. I understand you are not as keen on doing so -- that you prefer to rely on what "experts" claim is in the reports rather than expend the effort to read them yourself. To each his own.

As for Mr. Rowatt's claim he spoke with a member of UNMOVIC about chlorine purification, it appears either he actually did so or he made some damned accurate guesses about the situation, because the information he provides from that conversation --

Quote:

His explanation was that there is so much chlorine being imported into Iraq that

(i) it takes up one and a half staff people's time just to file the applications;

(ii) most of the sites receiving chlorine in Iraq (c. 900?) are then never inspected; and

(iii) the chlorine tracking protocol has never worked anyhow.




This dovetails with the other sources I provided, and even with at least one of the sources you provided -- the one claiming that chlorine levels leaving the pumping station are an extremely high 2.5 ppm. How can the chlorine levels be that high if Iraq had no chlorine, Alex213?

Any reasonable reader of Mr. Rowatt's contribution will conclude he wasn't pulling stuff out of his ass. Would that we could say the same for some posters to this forum.





Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4888373 - 11/03/05 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

There were no sanctions after the Iran-Iraq war. 500,000 children didn't die. There were sanctions after the Kuwait invasion. 500,000 children subsequently died. You don't see a link there?




As the statements of the people who actually collected and analyzed the data on infant mortality rates in Iraq have shown, that 500,000 number is an imaginary one. This fictional figure has been debunked probably a dozen times in this forum. As a matter of fact, it was debunked most recently in this very thread. Give it up.

Mike's contention that Iraq had enough money available to spend either on food and medical supplies or on military and golden palaces -- but not both -- is supported by the evidence unearthed since the resumption of hostilities in Iraq. The Oil for Food scandal, for example, shows that not only was Hussein diverting money to monuments, palaces,military personnel and gear, but also to his own bank accounts.

Give it up.




Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4888413 - 11/03/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I await your explanation of why you believe Pierrette Vu Thi of UNICEF is lying about tracking chlorine

For the nth time, can you point out where Pierette says Chlorine imports arn't prohibited by sanctions?

Since he posted to a website critical of the UN sanctions

And this makes him reliable?

But then again, I like to read what the actual source documents say.

Then why do you post emails by complete unknowns like "Mr Rowat"?

How can the chlorine levels be that high if Iraq had no chlorine

When did anyone say Iraq had no chlorine? The point here as you will know is that the import of Chlorine to Iraq was prohibited.

Do you still deny the importation of Chlorine to Iraq was prohibited? Seriously?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4888434 - 11/03/05 01:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This fictional figure has been debunked probably a dozen times in this forum

:rolleyes:

Presumably like you've "debunked" Chomsky and like the Butler report says Wilson was a liar?

but not both -- is supported by the evidence unearthed since the resumption of hostilities in Iraq

Presumably you accept he wasn't spending the money on WMD as none were found? 

The Oil for Food scandal, for example, shows that not only was Hussein diverting money to monuments, palaces,military personnel and gear, but also to his own bank accounts.


The director of the Oil for food program said many years ago that it was directly to blame for genocide in Iraq. Incidentally if you are so against the Oil for food program why have you spent years attacking Denis Haliday for pointing this out?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4888557 - 11/03/05 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

For the nth time, can you point out where Pierette says Chlorine imports arn't prohibited by sanctions?




Try to follow this, Alex213 --

If the importation of chlorine was prohibited by the UN sanctions, why is a UN organization being made responsible for the tracking of imported chlorine? Clearly the importation of chlorine was not prohibited. It was just monitored closely.

Quote:

Then why do you post emails by complete unknowns like "Mr Rowat"?




Professor Colin Rowat is well known for his opposition to the UN sanctions. He was a co-ordinator for the organization CASI (Campaign against Sanctions in Iraq) His articles

How the Sanctions Hurt Iraq http://www.merip.org/mero/mero080201.html

Resolution Missed Chance to Build Trust http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/iraq30.htm

Don't Trick or Treat Saddam http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1999/msg00759.html

and others make that pretty clear. Hell, just take a look at this page from CASI's website http://www.casi.org.uk/events/past.html for a better idea of CASI's agenda. This guy is on your side, Alex213.

Quote:

Do you still deny the importation of Chlorine to Iraq was prohibited?




Do you still insist the importation of chlorine to Iraq was prohibited? Despite the statements of Rowat, Pierrette Vu Thi, the text of the September 4, 1997 UN Secretary General's 90 day report?

I'll let the readers of this thread draw their own conclusions from your intransigent, fingers-in-ears eyes-tightly-squeezed-shut stance.

Clearly you prefer the fact-free life.



Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4888576 - 11/03/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Incidentally if you are so against the Oil for food program why have you spent years attacking Denis Haliday for pointing this out?




I attacked Haliday because he's a liar. As you know, I detest liars. This is why I detest Chomsky and Wilson and Michael Moore and Scott Ritter as well.



Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4890710 - 11/03/05 09:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

this reminds me of something ronald reagan once said... "the trouble with liberals is, they know so much that isn't so"...

theres so much disinformation out there on both sides that its hard to determine what's real and what's fantasy or propaganda...

that being said, we've been getting the same sorts of accusations concerning the sanctions against cuba, but we also get mixed messages... sometimes we're told that the cuban people are suffering due to us sanctions, other times we're told they're prospering due to castro's fine leadership...

personally, I doubt that an organisation like the UN which is dedicated to the welfare of the people would intentionally cause death and disease for the sake of punishing one man...

I also doubt that any nation would let sanctions keep them from getting the things they need... plenty of things were smuggled into and out of iraq during the sanctions, medicines for children are as easy to bring across a border as a person is... we're told that they can't keep insurgents from coming into the country, yet we can stop the flow of pennicillin? highly doubtful...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892023 - 11/04/05 02:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I attacked Haliday because he's a liar.

You'll need evidence to back that up. Your opinion on who is a liar is a very wacky.

As you know, I detest liars

You certainly seem to like using it as an insult for people who disagree with you. As for providing evidence to support your opinion you always come up a little short.

This is why I detest Chomsky and Wilson and Michael Moore and Scott Ritter as well

Hmm...I see a pattern here. Can you name anyone who shares your political opinions that is a liar?

Bush and his administration never lied about WMD right? They just made "misleading" statements?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892091 - 11/04/05 02:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Clearly the importation of chlorine was not prohibited

As I have explained will need evidence to support this. One alleged quote from one broken link does not suffice.

The experts operating the water plants in Iraq, people on the ground there investigating the issue all stated quite clearly the import of Chlorine was prohibited. The evidence of this is overwhelming. Are you claiming they all lied?

Professor Colin Rowat is well known for his opposition to the UN sanctions

Are you certain Professor Colin Rowat and the "Colin Rowat" you quoted are the same man? Professor Colin Rowat appears to live in England while "Colin Rowat" gave an american address.

Do you still insist the importation of chlorine to Iraq was prohibited? Despite the statements of Rowat

You are certain the Rowat you quoted is the Professor?

Pierrette Vu Thi, t

Can you link me to the place where she states the importation of Chlorine isn't prohibited? Better still a single reference from UNICEF at their official site. You appear to basing your entire argument on one alleged quote and disregarding everything that the experts on the ground in Iraq state quite clearly.

I'll let the readers of this thread draw their own conclusions from your intransigent, fingers-in-ears eyes-tightly-squeezed-shut stance.


You have yet to explain why the experts at the water treatment plants in Iraq disagree with you. Please do so.

Clearly you prefer the fact-free life

When your argument has been demolished, personal attack is the presumably all you have left. Sad.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892137 - 11/04/05 02:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This guy is on your side, Alex213.


Can you find us a little more detail to confirm this?

This is the address of the first "Colin Rowat" (no mention of any "Profesor") you quoted:

Quote:

Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA





This is the address of the Professor Colin Rowat you claim is the same person in your following post:


Dr. Colin Rowat - Course Material and Information
Department of Economics
University of Birmingham
England


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4892469 - 11/04/05 04:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

As I have explained will need evidence to support this.




I gave the readers evidence from three different sources. Pierrette Vu Thi --

Quote:

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."




Please explain to the readers how one can observe cylinders of chlorine arrive in Iraq if they are not being imported into Iraq? Where are they arriving from if not from outside Iraq? You claim "people on the ground" state importation of chlorine was prohibited. How does Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF Program Coordinator for Iraq, not qualify as a person "on the ground"?

Colin Rowat, who said there was so much chlorine being imported into Iraq that it took up to one and a half staff persons just to file the applications.

Your attempt to claim that the Colin Rowat posting at CASI's website is not the same Colin Rowat who is a co-ordinator for CASI is (to be as charitable as possible) astonishingly bizarre. The fact that he may spend part of his time in New York and part of his time in Birmingham is no more odd than the fact that Mark Steyn (for example) spends part of his time in Canada, part of his time in Vermont, and part of his time in London. There is such a thing as trans-Atlantic travel, Alex213. People often do reside part of the year in one country and part of the year in another, you know -- particularly university professors who get several consecutive months break every year.

My third source, globalsecurity.org, has been ignored entirely by you. I suppose you'll now claim it too is a "notorious propaganda website". The spectacle of someone citing commondreams.org declaring any other website a "propaganda website" is too blatant an example of irony for further comment.

And of course, we also have the UN Secretary-General's September 1997 "90 Day Report" confirmation of shipments of chlorine to Iraq.


Youve been thoroughly pwned, Alex213. Time to give this up and move on.



Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4892558 - 11/04/05 06:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

last i heard, supporting your allies and letting run their own internal affairs is the right thing to do... no crime there...




So as Saddam had not carried out any actions outside his own borders since the invasion of Kuwait why was invading the "right thing to do" over ten years later? If you have the temerity to say WMD then why was it not right to wait for 100% solid evidence before proceeding?

Quote:

the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...





This is ridiculous logic. We chose to impose the sanctions, nobody forced us to. Therefore we are partly responsible for the results of those sanctions.

Furthermore are you aware of the fact the US Ambassador April Gilespie gave Saddam a practical green light for the invasion by telling Saddam that the US had no interest in Arab-Arab conflicts? If she had instead said "You invade Kuwait and we are going to fuck you up" then Saddam would more than likely have stopped his plans for an invasion. Yes he was a tyrannical dictator but he definitely wasnt stupid...although trusting the word of the US government did turn out to be a pretty stupid move in the end.

Quote:

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...




nice venturing but really just meaningless noise as you make no attempt whatsoever to back up this claim.

Quote:

the whole 'sanctions killed the kids' argument hinges on the notion that had saddam had more money available, he could have saved the kids... but would he have done so? It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...




You obviously know absolutely nothing about the welfare of the Iraqi people prior to the first Gulf War. Why dont you go away and find out about that and then we can continue this conversation?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4892569 - 11/04/05 06:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

personally, I doubt that an organisation like the UN which is dedicated to the welfare of the people would intentionally cause death and disease for the sake of punishing one man...




Quote:

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)





You cannot deny that it was known or at least suspected what effect the sanctions were having on the Iraqi people so regardless of how valid the reasons for enforcing the sanction supposedly were how can you possibly in good conscience say that a) It was correct to continue sanctions when this knowledge became available b) The agencies who enforced the sanctions hold no responsibility for the results of these sanctions?


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4892642 - 11/04/05 07:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

fuck, i just spent an hour writing a full scale reply and my computer bugged  :mad2:



But basically all you need to know is here:

10 Years of Destruction: What the UN & U.S. Have Knowingly Been Doing To Iraq and Its People



Eight grueling years of war with Iran, followed by the Gulf War of 1990 has truly left Iraq and its people exhausted. The economy, and as a result, the infrastructure of the country, lay in ruins and seem to be only getting worse. In an attempt to pressure Iraq and its President Saddam Hussein to stop manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, the United Nations established a set of sanctions to limit the country's policies and behavior. However, a closer examination shows that the sanctions themselves are being used as a weapon of mass destruction. It is not Saddam Hussein or the Iraqi government which is suffering, but the people and lands of Iraq. More surprising than the fact of Iraq?s deteriorated state is the obvious notion of the U.S.?s and basically the rest of the world?s disregard to Iraq?s demise.

...

According to Davidsson , ?One of the largest problems besides the economic, political, and direct effects on the people of Iraq was that the UN Sanctions Committee was empowered to determine the necessary resources needed by Iraq for purchasing products and approving exceptions to the ban on Iraqi exports. Under the sanctions, all imports into Iraq and all exports from Iraq were prohibited unless the UN Committee permitted exceptions? (1). Troubles arose as the committee group in charge of determining what items were to be allowed inside Iraq did not foresee the problems that would arise in outlawing certain chemicals, equipment, and supplies that were considered as essential life products. ?These so called ?duel use? items, which were civilian necessities and yet also tools to help the Iraqi Military, included pesticides and fertilizer, spare parts for crop-dusting, helicopters, chlorine, computers, trucks, telecommunications equipment, and many other electrical equipment? (Gordon 2). While the idea of trying to keep these items out of the hands of the Iraqi military is a smart one, the fact that it is almost impossible to obtain such commonly owned items as computers, radios, and farming supplies while living in Iraq is simply unbelievable. While the UN and U.S. fight to weaken a select few, we deprive millions of people, punishing them simply for their homeland.

According to the C.E.S.R. , ?Nothing was more harmful than the ban of the chemical chlorine. Although chlorine is used in the making of most chemical and biological weapons, it is also a necessity in water purification? (1). Most of the country, because of the ban on chlorine, has no clean or safe to drink water and very poor sewage distribution, if any at all. According to Nagy , ?The Gulf War severely damaged Iraq's infrastructure, interrupting the power supply and consequently the operation of pumping and treatment facilities. Since then, money and spare parts have not been available to repair sewage works and purification plants, which are often working at reduced capacity if at all. This had led to an overall deterioration in the quality and quantity of drinking water and the rapid spread of infectious diseases, such as cholera? (1). Also amazingly banned are materials and machines that contribute to bomb making, yet are essential parts of any hospital. People die every day of diseases that did not exist in pre-sanction Iraq, such as malaria, cholera, and tuberculosis, or of ailments that could be easily be treated with simple medication. These are medications and supplies that are either banned by or that have not been sent to Iraq due to the tactics of the UN committee. With a majority of the population of Iraq either suffering from diseases, malnutrition, or war injuries, it?s no wonder why most Iraqis do not survive since the quality and quantity of hospitals inside the country are so low.?

With the aim of the sanctions supposedly targeted at Saddam Hussein and the corrupt Iraqi government, few were objectful to the ideas presented by the sanctions. Hopes were that the sanctions would weaken Hussein, thereby allowing opposition groups to remove him from power. However, as time went on, the obvious presented itself. This assault was not on the solitary individual of Saddam Hussein, as our media and government leaders would have us believe, but on the expense of the entire country. In fact, if anything, Hussein was benefiting and actually becoming more powerful as time went on.?

.......


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: exclusive58]
    #4893343 - 11/04/05 01:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

exclusive58, I know you are new enough to this forum not to have read some of my earlier posts on this matter, but I have always said from the very beginning that the UN sanctions on Iraq were a bad idea.

The correct thing to have done was to have rolled into Baghdad in 1991, turfed the Ba'athists out, and set up an elected government. Sanctions almost never work when applied to dictatorial regimes because the whole premise of imposing sanctions is that the sanctioned regime cares enough for the people it rules (or fears those people enough) to take the steps necessary to get the sanctions lifted. Sanctions never hurt those in power but always hurt those they rule.

I am not denying the UN sanctions had negative effects on the people of Iraq. I am merely correctly pointing out that chlorine was imported into Iraq under the UN sanctions.





Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4893679 - 11/04/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

last i heard, supporting your allies and letting run their own internal affairs is the right thing to do... no crime there...




So as Saddam had not carried out any actions outside his own borders since the invasion of Kuwait why was invading the "right thing to do" over ten years later? If you have the temerity to say WMD then why was it not right to wait for 100% solid evidence before proceeding?




Invading iraq was a bad decision, but I can see the rationale for doing so... we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people, it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...

Quote:


Quote:

the decision to wage war is what killed those children, not the sanctions...





This is ridiculous logic. We chose to impose the sanctions, nobody forced us to. Therefore we are partly responsible for the results of those sanctions.

Furthermore are you aware of the fact the US Ambassador April Gilespie gave Saddam a practical green light for the invasion by telling Saddam that the US had no interest in Arab-Arab conflicts? If she had instead said "You invade Kuwait and we are going to fuck you up" then Saddam would more than likely have stopped his plans for an invasion. Yes he was a tyrannical dictator but he definitely wasnt stupid...although trusting the word of the US government did turn out to be a pretty stupid move in the end.




Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies... there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded... and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government... and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...
Quote:


Quote:

i would venture so far as to argue that had the sanctions never been in place, as many or more would have died not only of malnutrition and disease but also due to ethnic cleansing...




nice venturing but really just meaningless noise as you make no attempt whatsoever to back up this claim.




yes, it is difficult to prove what coulda woulda shoulda happened, but none can argue what did happen, which is that a lot of people died needlessly while those responsible for the welfare of those people lived lavish and extravagant lifestyles...





Quote:


Quote:

the whole 'sanctions killed the kids' argument hinges on the notion that had saddam had more money available, he could have saved the kids... but would he have done so? It seems to me that had saddam had more money, he would have stockpiled more weapons instead of taking care of his people...




You obviously know absolutely nothing about the welfare of the Iraqi people prior to the first Gulf War. Why dont you go away and find out about that and then we can continue this conversation?







and you obviously know nothing about the responsibilities of leadership... why don't you go suck an egg?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4903403 - 11/07/05 05:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people,





So you admit your own Government lied to the entire world over their reasons for invading Iraq?

Quote:

it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...




Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.

Quote:

Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies...




Wrong! It would have been clear to Gillespie that the Iraqi's were seeking advice on what consequences they would face if they invaded Kuwait.

Quote:

there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded...




What exactly is this contractual obligation?

Quote:

and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government...




Where did I say the US imposed the sanctions? I said "We" referring to the west as a whole.

Quote:

and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...





As I have already said why dont you go and find out how the Iraqi people fared pre-sanctions and then compare that to how the fared during the sanctions? Of course you wont do this because it means you might have to change the way you think or admit some of the opinions you have picked up are in fact absolute bollocks.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4907926 - 11/08/05 05:23 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Pierrette Vu Thi --



As I stated, you have provided one alleged quote from a single broken link. What you need is more evidence. As yet you havn't got a leg to stand on.

Please explain to the readers how one can observe cylinders of chlorine arrive in Iraq if they are not being imported into Iraq?

As I have requested several times, can you provide a single source other than your own mind, that states the importation of chlorine into Iraq wasn't prohibited?

You claim "people on the ground" state importation of chlorine was prohibited

I don't "claim" this, I provide evidence from the experts running the water treatment plants.

How does Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF Program Coordinator for Iraq, not qualify as a person "on the ground"?


Again, you rely on one quote from one broken link. Do you have any other evidence to support your case?

Your attempt to claim that the Colin Rowat posting at CASI's website is not the same Colin Rowat

I didn't "claim" anything. I asked you to support your case and provide evidence that two people with completely different addresses, one of which who calls himself "Dr", while the other does not are the same person. Please do so.

Youve been thoroughly pwned, Alex213

Don't be childish. You have provided absolutely no evidence to support your case. I have provided you with several statements by water treatment experts on the ground in Iraq stating the importation of Chlorine is prohibited. Until you can counter this you are going nowhere and you know it.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4908028 - 11/08/05 07:28 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

we didn't invade iraq over WMDs or anything saddam did to his people,





So you admit your own Government lied to the entire world over their reasons for invading Iraq?




Do i need to remind you that it was not the United States that ivvaded iraq, it was a coalition of forces ordered to do so by the United Nations Security Council... there were four other nations besides the US, France included, who had the power to veto that resolution... nobody stepped up to veto it, and when the council voted, they voted to invade...

I think its obvious that the general public was told some pretty big lies, but its just as obvious that the other members of the Security Council were in on the lies... lying to the public about the reasons to go to war is nothing new under the sun... remember the Maine?



Quote:

it was merely a convenient place to go to bring a battlefront to AlQueda... this is terribly unfair to the iraqis but i think most americans would rather fight our war with Alqueda in iraq rather than on the streets of american cities...




Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.




Since when does morality play a part in military decisions?

Quote:

Making a statement of disinterest in arab affairs is a far cry from giving the green light to invade one of our allies...




Wrong! It would have been clear to Gillespie that the Iraqi's were seeking advice on what consequences they would face if they invaded Kuwait.

Quote:

there was a contractual obligation to defend kuwait once saddam invaded...




What exactly is this contractual obligation?






its called a treaty... you should look up treaties, they are legal documents that nations sign with one another to provide for the common defense of both in cse one is attacked...

Quote:

and you seem to have it incorrect vis-a-vis who imposed the sanctions... those sanctions were inposed by the United nations, not the US government...




Where did I say the US imposed the sanctions? I said "We" referring to the west as a whole.




Not just the west... half the world wanted to go to war in Iraq, and half the wotrld sent troops...

Quote:

and what you call 'the results of those sanctions' are arguably not the result of the sanctions per se, more likely they were the results of mismanagement by the iraqi leadership...





As I have already said why dont you go and find out how the Iraqi people fared pre-sanctions and then compare that to how the fared during the sanctions? Of course you wont do this because it means you might have to change the way you think or admit some of the opinions you have picked up are in fact absolute bollocks.




and i've already said go suck an egg... it's obvious that the people of iraq fared worse under sanctions than they did without them... because their leaders diverted every cent that was supposed to provide for the welfare of the people and used the money to buy golden toilet bowls...


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4908116 - 11/08/05 09:05 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Do i need to remind you that it was not the United States that ivvaded iraq, it was a coalition of forces ordered to do so by the United Nations Security Council... there were four other nations besides the US, France included, who had the power to veto that resolution... nobody stepped up to veto it, and when the council voted, they voted to invade...




I am fully aware of how the war in Iraq unfolded. Do you deny the US invaded Iraq? Whether or not it was part of a coalition or not really makes no odds.

Anyway before you get your Uncle Sam knickers in an even bigger twist than they are already in can I just point out that although it is obvious the US has the largest role to play in this whole sorry affair I am well aware that responsibility is shared by the west in general.

Quote:

I think its obvious that the general public was told some pretty big lies, but its just as obvious that the other members of the Security Council were in on the lies... lying to the public about the reasons to go to war is nothing new under the sun... remember the Maine?




Does that make it alright then? Should we all just follow your enlightened lead and bend over and wait to be shafted by our governments because "it is nothing new under the snn"?

I really dont see how you can be so blase about a pack of lies which has lead to the deaths of so many innocent people. But hey at least most of the dead arent Americans eh?

Quote:

Since when does morality play a part in military decisions?





I was referring to your opinion that is better to fight US wars on Non-US soil as being "Arrogant, sickening, morally repugnant.
"

Do you really beleive that morality and military should be completely divorced in a civilllised society? If so I would be fascinated to hear your defense of this idea.

Quote:

its called a treaty... you should look up treaties, they are legal documents that nations sign with one another to provide for the common defense of both in cse one is attacked...




Dont be obtuse. Which specific treaty forced the US to intervene when Iraq invaded Kuwait?

I wasnt aware that there was one.

Quote:


and i've already said go suck an egg... it's obvious that the people of iraq fared worse under sanctions than they did without them... because their leaders diverted every cent that was supposed to provide for the welfare of the people and used the money to buy golden toilet bowls...




So the people of Iraq fared worse under sanctions because of all the golden toilet bowls? (you seem a little obsessed with the golden toilet bowls by the way!)

So, pre sanctions, certain diseases did not really exist in Iraq but during sanctions thousands died as these diseases returned, and the reason for this? Not the sanctions themselves but....golden toilet bowls!! Seems so obvious doesnt it??!!

What is obvious to me is that the sanctions definitely had a negative affect on the Iraqi people, even Phred agrees with this! Therefore those who chose to impose these sanctions must accept some responsiblility for the affects.


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Alex213]
    #4908198 - 11/08/05 09:48 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

As I stated, you have provided one alleged quote from a single broken link. What you need is more evidence. As yet you havn't got a leg to stand on.




The readers of this thread can see I have provided evidence from three separate sources, each with active links. The UN Secretary-General's September 4, 1997 "90 Day Report" is the fourth source.

Quote:

As I have requested several times, can you provide a single source other than your own mind, that states the importation of chlorine into Iraq wasn't prohibited?




See above. The readers of this thread are capable of concluding that if UNICEF (a UN organization) was supervising the importation of chlorine into Iraq, then chlorine was being imported into Iraq with the UN's blessing.

Quote:

I don't "claim" this, I provide evidence from the experts running the water treatment plants




Ah. The famous Alex213 "experts" dodge. What criteria do you utilize in order to determine who qualifies as an "expert", Alex213? From what I can see, the only necessity for someone to qualify as an "expert" in your mind is for someone to agree with your fantasy of the moment. It never seems to occur to you that in a regime where people who thwarted Hussein's will were routinely tortured and killed (and in many cases were forced to watch their families tortured and killed) officials in charge of various departments might say whatever it was Hussein directed them to say.

What is your rationale for dismissing what Pierrette Vu Thi and Colin Rowat had to say on the matter? How is it that the Pierrette Vu Thi doesn't qualify as an Alex213-certified "expert"? She was "on the ground" in Iraq, after all. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that she explained for the public record how every cylinder of chlorine entering Iraq was painstakingly tracked from entry to final destination within Iraq, would it?

Quote:

Again, you rely on one quote from one broken link. Do you have any other evidence to support your case?




Three sources, all with active links. Plus the UN Secretary-General's Sept 4, 1997 "90 Day Report", paragraphs 19 and 37. That makes four.

Quote:

I didn't "claim" anything. I asked you to support your case and provide evidence that two people with completely different addresses, one of which who calls himself "Dr", while the other does not are the same person. Please do so.




The readers of this thread realize that "Colin Rowat" is not a particularly common name. Not as common as Joe Smith or Paul Robertson, for example. I've been on this planet for over half a century, travelled around a bit, and met thousands of people from literally dozens of countries. Yet I have never met even a single Colin Rowat, let alone two of them, let alone two of them posting to a single specialized website where a Colin Rowat is listed as a co-ordinator for the organization running the website.

If you wish to believe they are two different individuals with exactly the same name and exactly the same interests posting with exactly the same writing style on the same website, you are of course free to believe this. None of the other readers of the thread do.

Quote:

Don't be childish.




I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine who is being childish in this exchange, Alex213.

Quote:

You have provided absolutely no evidence to support your case.




I have provided evidence (with functioning links) from a co-ordinator of an anti-UN Sanctions organization, from the UNICEF program co-ordinator in Iraq, from an organization which tracks (and hosts entire documents regarding) US and UN military and security-related issues, and I have referred you to the relevant paragraphs of the UN Secretary-General's September 4, 1997 "90 Day Report".

The readers of this thread can determine for themselves who has provided the more credible sources.

Quote:

I have provided you with several statements by water treatment experts on the ground in Iraq stating the importation of Chlorine is prohibited.




Ah yes. The Iraqi "experts" living under a reign of terror who had no reason whatsoever to lie about this matter. I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine the worth of their claims.

Quote:

Until you can counter this you are going nowhere and you know it.




I am quite content to let the readers of this thread decide for themselves whose "experts" are the more credible, Alex213.



Phred


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Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: Phred]
    #4908557 - 11/08/05 12:01 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I dont know guys, but from were I see it, far away from the US.. I do believe the US is responsible for lots of shit happening in Iraq..
and soon happening in Iran.

I dont believe your media and government are being honest with what they show and say, they do choose what to show you, how to show it and when. From out hire we can see things you cant!!! (the other way around is also true)
Many American friends told me about massive protest in LA, and NY against war, bush, etc.. never shown in CNN International or any other media, perhaps wanting us to think that the USA is in war and no one there is against it.
Also, I'm sure they haven't shown all the protest around the world against this war.  We had a huge peaceful protest, everyone dressed in white..  .. the march ended up in fornt of the US embassy. Same thing happen in every other country in this big continent.
You can also see how Bush was received in Argentina, Brazil and some other country this past week. Not with flowers and great honors, but like a dictator, a new Hittler.

personally I dont care much aboute him nor talk agianst him, just writting down what Ive seen on peoples reactions this days.

I personally don't have anything against the US, ( I love you guys) but believe me the rest of the world do. its so hard being an American around hire!!!  if you travel it is recommend (by tourist agencies around the world) to place a Canadian flag in your bag pack!!!
Just take walk around any street in any country and surly you will find graffiti against US Government, Bush and unfairly USA in general.

Sadly people around the world, most of them, tend to generalize the situation and consider ALL Americans part of an evil empire that wishes to gain world dominion.

I hurd an Iraqi reporter say once that the only people in power to stop the US abusive expancion is the same American people.  very true. No other nation has the power to do so. I do believe the USA is about to loose a war that wont be fought with weapons but with outrageous Americans that will start to speak the truth.  aware Politicians, aware FBI agents, CIA agents, soldiers, generals, common people too.




:bigblunt:


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Invisiblepsiclops
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Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 1,965
Loc: PNW
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: GazzBut]
    #4911648 - 11/09/05 12:10 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The only crime the US Government has committed, regarding Hussein?
Not taking him donw long ago.




How about the crime of supporting him and looking the other way while he commited some of the crimes which will no doubt be brought up in his forthcoming trials?....while the scumpigs like Rumsfeld will shake their heads at the horror of the crimes even though they knew it was happening at the time.




Thank you for paraphrasing what I had previously said.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4911748 - 11/09/05 12:25 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

awesome


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
Re: 500,000 iraqi children dead because of US sanctions. Albright: "The Price Is Worth It"... [Re: psiclops]
    #4912467 - 11/09/05 07:42 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Where did you previously say that?


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