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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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An elaboration on duality. East meets West.
    #8473162 -

It seems that most of the discussion in this forum is upon the difference between truth and association, analytically described as that which arises from subject and object.

yea...We are familiar with this one, duality is a great springboard for philosophizing.

Duality translates quite well from subject to object, ying and yang, to up and down. As you will later see, trinity does not translate as significantly but nonetheless, I think there really are some interesting connections between these abstractions as well. I wonder if any of you have any thoughts or criticisms, most particularly concerning Theravada Buddhism, or eastern thought in general (which I will get to later)

So off we go!

Take a look at this traditional representation of duality (its from one of Descartes books)


Notice the triangles... It seems to me, that this just as well represents a trinity. After all to "see" duality, you have to be standing in front of it, which is how we infer the 3 spacial dimensions of reality.

This is reflected within the work itself, in the realm of consciousness. You will notice Descartes writes in first person narrative. This is significant, because it was historically his work that formally established our original conception of objectivity. Descartes found it necessary to establish objectivity, through a subjective voice. If you know my style, I am always arguing in these forums that conceptual objectivity is in this way at most a simulation of objectivity. (A=A is my favorite to "debunk") debunking objectivity is not my point in this thread though, it is an elaboration upon this.

Maybe some of you will recall the old thread "if a tree falls and nobody is around...", it was just me who denied that the tree actually falls when nobody is there to experience it. Actually I think Marcos had something to say along these lines as well. Regaurdless, I know most of you will disagree with me from this point onward. But consider that subjectivity is necessary for objectivity:

In exactly the same way that it is speculation that our souls survive our bodies after death, (subject without object, more or less), it is speculation that there is existence without experience (object without subject). For us who are to an extent relying upon evidence, I do not believe this can be denied. Concerning death it is all speculation. Returning to Descartes, as I have said:


Descartes SAYS: there is subject and object...

1,2,3.

Consciousness, subject, and object.

This to me seems to be where thoughts of transcendence arise; transpersonal concepts, like the very serious question "who am I really?" The illusion of self, might perhaps be a confusion between the the self confined by duality, and true self (consciousness?).

And so here is a bridge from western to eastern philosophy. Im hoping that some of you meditation experts will help me out here, I'm pretty amatuerish when it comes to Eastern concepts.

In the Theravada Buddhism the 2 principal paths to enlightenment (true self) are described as Path of concentration, and the path of insight. Apparently, Theravada Buddhism ultimately integrates these 2 approaches.

"when attempting to see the murals on the wall of a dark cave, one must use a lamp that is both well shielded and bright. If the lamp is not well shielded, then its flame will flicker or even become extinguished; and if its flame is not sufficiently intense, the lamp’s light will be insufficient for the task at hand."

Though insight meditation is arguably more intrinsic than concentration (relying upon external objects) the chief difference between these two approaches is NOT as simple as subjective vs objective realities. I speculate that herein is the relationship, the illusion, or the confusion; between what I have previously described in trinity as original subjectivity and consciousness, self and true self.

These 2 dualities - Cartesian duality in its ordinary sense, along with Theravada insight vs concentration, seem to make up the principal three dimensions of reality, (which I previously hinted at as I described Cartesian duality) in the same way that 3 dimensions of spacial reality can be thought of as "stacking" duality upon duality.


Edited by daytripper23 (06/02/08 07:42 AM)

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8473280 -

In my view, duality is a subset of the trinity. The example you gave of up and down can also include neither up nor down, in terms of movement I would call this an absence of vector. That is the third element of your 'duality'.

I believe this is important in the context you are describing, and in particular when trying to grasp meditative practice and koan. There is little use in taking one step forward and two steps back. There is a time to move and a time to sit still. Trying to understand esoteric paradoxes by applying ordinary logic is taking two steps back. That is why meditation can be considered the way *forward* by *not* moving.

You seem to be on the right track, but I'm not clear on what your point is exactly. But I must concur that reality does not appear dualistic, and this bares out with only mild obseration.

Science tends to compartmentalise phenomena into discrete paradigms for the purpose of qauntification. For example electricity and magnetism, both can be measured independantly, yet neither exist without the other, hence a third more encompassing definition known electromagnetism was coined to describe far more than either electricity or magnetism can possibly elucidate independantly.

In a similar sense, the image you posted describes duality with the use of two eyes, each has its own two dimensional image, that when combined in the mind creates a third three dimensional image. So how dualistic is that?

Clearly its not a case of objectivity, and I agree that objectivity is somewhat of a willow the wisp for philosophers. However, I should go and read your opinion on the old tree in the woods paradox. But before I do, I'd like to answer that with a multi facted question of my own.

If, when walking through the woods you come across a fallen down tree, if no one was there to eperience it, did it not fall down?

Or, does the riddle merely state that when no human is around to view a tree as a tree it is not a tree. In the way that a tree has no meaning, but a tree is the meaning of the word "tree"?

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8473468 -

Quote:
in the same way that 3 dimensions of spacial reality can be thought of as "stacking" duality upon duality.




It can?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: zouden]
    #8473513 -

I tink he's referring to left/right and up/down and forwards/backwards, if that makes sense. 3x opposing vectors.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: masterxenn]
    #8474056 -

Masterxenn, I enjoyed your post, and I am now kind of surprised you made any sense of it since I have come to a bit. I cant say that I was actually making some kind of point, other than a vague attempt in trying to somehow logically connect east and western thought.

There is another interesting trinity I forgot to mention, Ken Wilber describes the 3 principal perceptions (which he later expands upon) as concerned with:

I, we, and it.

Your post reminded me of this a bit, but my ideas are probably too far off the wall to formulate. Just thought Id mention it.

Also, I was wondering, what trinity means to you, as a subset of duality? How exactly so?

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8474104 -

well, quite the reverse actually, duality is a subset...

as any dimension is the smaller sibling of its larger sister.

That all depends on your description of this reality though. Scientifically, current debate on elementary particle physics suggests more than three dimenions, many more.

In any argument, or discourse, especislly reductive analytics, it can always be reduced and always comes down to "it".

..and nothing more. But is this satifactory?

When anyone starts down that path there is no other answer or useful statement, or so it would seem.

I do not detect an I or a me in those terms...?

What use is there in trying to connect eastern and western thought? There have been many mystics from both sides quite capable of understanding each other.

What is important is intention, in all situations.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8474582 -

hmmm...I can be more clear than that.

What I am trying to say is that eastern and western thought are like different flavours. Trying to combine them is something like trying to bridge strawberries and olives. They are just different and each has it's place and utility. Go right ahead though, don't let me stop you. It's fun, and you might come up with something very interesting. However, many have tried, and it's reasonable to point out that you could be spending your time potentially more productively by meditating, and hopefully not instead end up spending it thinking yourself hard out into a metaphorical corner.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: masterxenn]
    #8475434 -

Yea, think I hear what you're saying. Literally, you can't go east and west at the same time.

However skillful/unskillful I was originally, my intent was to somehow relate the two as complimentary. A skillful cook can mix flavors that you wouldnt think possible. Its Yin and Yang ya know?

I was a little over eager to incorporate a lot of things that have been brewing in my head lately, and now I can see I could have said a lot of this more skillfully.

I started out thinking that duality implies trinity, or like you said, comprises trinity, and that is really what my main focus originally was.

But while I see this natural, conceptual graduation to trinity in western context, it seems to get lost in relation to The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which as far as I know is unrelated to the building blocks of Cartesian duality. Christianity was NOT founded upon a dialectic approach to reality, like the concept I describe.

Now if the theory I describe of trinity, graduates from duality in terms of consciousness, what exactly am I saying?

To formulate this conceptual idea of trinity I noticed that:

Descartes Says there is Subject and Object.

There is Cartesian duality, subject and object, and necessarily consciousness that recognizes this. To recognize duality, an additional dimension is needed to see the space between subject and object.

This is why I mentioned the "If a tree falls" question. Though this might seem like mental masturbation, it is important to realize that in terms of existence, there is no object without a subject. ---> Subject and Object together comprise reality, what might be described as a more realistic objectivity.

Without getting too much into it, I think that this is the chief fault of the western approach, and generally why society in my opinion is in a shit hole. Science and rationality is mistaken as absolute, rather than associative. Nowadays we worship pharmacueticals, capitalism, and democracy, having our own modern crusades.

Not only society, but of course the government is thought to be secular, when it certainly is not. Right off the bat, in the declaration of independence:

Quote:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...



This is the same damn thing I am talking about. Absolutism. Instead of a social contract between individual and government, which acknowledges the frailty of objective claims, we have the American bible proclaiming innate rights.

Subject and object, left simply at that, is clearly ineffective.

I say that duality implies trinity, because it is absolutely necessary to realize that both subject and "object" comprise existence. Or in other words, they comprise a more realistic version of objectivity.

This is confusing because what I am saying, concerning sentient existence, (which takes into account the constrains of experience), is that duality is necessarily stacked upon itself.  Actually if you catch my drift, there is conceivably an infinite number of dualities stacked, creating a much recognizable layering affect. Ever notice how becoming conscious seems to come in plateaus? I think that essentially, this is what is happening.

From here things get more sketchy as I try to relate this to the eastern approach. The following was originally meant as an afterthought, though I do think there might be something to it, and maybe I just cannot articulate it yet.

The reason I mentioned eastern thought in general, is its generally experience based approach is exactly what's missing in cartesian duality. Instead of having level upon level of dualities, one might conceive of this as simply subject, object, and consciousness.

I can see that imposing a third concept upon Eastern duality, which already emphasizes experience is completely unnecessary. For instance, it does seem unnecessary to explicitly unify yin and yang, as this is implicit for good reasons. I think I agree with you that this third leg translates best to nothingness.

So it seems that as usual, I am merely critiquing the western approach through an eastern lens. But I do not believe this is simply Iconoclastic; eastern spirituality might be highly subjective (psychological) but it is arguably rational as well...

The problem is, while it seems necessary to account for the layering of duality, there is seemingly no end to this. Cartesian duality begs for an end, an absolute. So another way of conceiving this, which resolves the layering of duality from the beginning yet still accounts for it, is the Theravada "duality". A finite interpretation, (perhaps in terms of quality, not quality?)

But while it to me seems clear that the Theravada "duality" of insight vs. concentration, is exactly what is missing in Cartesian duality (which I previously also described in unity as consciousness, or sentient objectivity), it is also clear that this does not so cleanly fit.

Alan Watts, Ken Wilber, Tanaka Kataro, and others; these guys have really opened up my mind. If you listen to their lectures, they always admit that they are not describing Eastern thought "correctly" (perhaps like the cartesian disclaimer on "objectivity"), nonetheless this has made eastern philosophy all the more decipherable for amateurs like myself. I guess Im trying to do their kind of thing. I really dig the crosshairs of eastern and western philosophy, and while I agree that describing one through the rhetoric of the other is limited, even delusional, the attempt to relate these ways of thought seems to be both effective and distinct.

Btw
I meditate as much as I can put up with these days, and intellectualizing actually seems to feed this for me much of the time, if I'm doing it right. But other times you are right, I get lost in thought exactly like this. I do realize that it is important to keep ying and yang distinct, so your intent is well noted.:sun:

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8476561 -

daytripper23, could you elaborate on what you mean by "subjectivity is necessary for objectivity"? Things are objective first, and then subjected to our opinions by way of outside influences.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: Boots]
    #8476924 -

I would not say that there is a rationale behind this "claim", only that it is not a claim at all, in fact the least speculative opinion on the matter.

Have you ever witnessed objectivity without subjectivity?

It is often treated as a claim because we spend our entire existence as subjects. While we also exist as objects, in that I am a hunk of flesh in relation to you, the ability to actually become conscious of this, lose our self importance and treat ourselves as mere objects is easier said than done. Most of us never allow ourselves to simply exist in this way, as objects. If things were flip flopped, that consciousness was somehow the object, and substance the subject, most of us would speculate that subjectivity is the absolute.

You are making such an absolute claim that you have seriously and truly objectified yourself. Disregarding the verity of your claim, do you have the authenticity, or the mastery to make it?

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8478429 -

I don't really understand your last sentence. The authenticity or the mastery to make what?

I try to look at things through the most objective lens possible at first. Then, after some time, I'll begin to look at things through a subjective lens.

Objectively, it's just a bowl of chocolate ice cream (on a side note, I realize that it's not actually anything but what I choose to call it) made up of sugar, cocoa, etc.

Subjectively, it's a delicious bowl of chocolate ice cream and, is on some levels, therapeutic.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: Boots]
    #8478644 -

"Objectively, what is the best crisp??"

That Mitchell and Webb Look - Big Talk (Small Talk edition)


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: Boots]
    #8479381 -

Well to make the claim that objectivity precedes, or manifests subjectivity, you would naturally have to experience objectivity without subjectivity. Otherwise you can't know this for sure.

Quote:
Objectively, it's just a bowl of chocolate ice cream (on a side note, I realize that it's not actually anything but what I choose to call it) made up of sugar, cocoa, etc.




If you agree that all it is, is what you choose to call it, what is objective about it? In terms of true objectivity, there is not more objective or less objective. Objective means absolute. But sure, i know what your saying.

I agree that there are useful and effective agreements concerning the actual substance of the world (ice cream), but this is only a simulation. I am not at all against indulging in this, science, technology, and consensual reality, but we should realize what it actually is, or rather that we have no idea of what it truly is. Its not true objectivity. When people think its true objectivity, thats when the crusades begin.

In the modern world, where there has thankfully been an undercurrent of relativity established by philosophers and scientists, I actually think that making substantial claims is not in itself a such a horrible thing; that is, as long as they actually realize and accept they are making absolutist claims, and genuinely proclaim them as such.

The way I see it, this undercurrent of relativity is well enough established, that explicit trials and inquisitions are not a huge problem for humanity. The problem is this middle ground, concerning judgments that are "more objective" and "less objective". I know that you and I can indulge in making more or less objective claims concerning the substance which we call ice cream, because it is chiefly a matter of aesthetics. Perhaps it is because I live in the North East, and am not faced with too many "crazy" Christians, but I also do not think Christianity, or other religions are as much a problem as the politicizing that is done in half assed objective/relativist light. Sure, religions subtlety feed the dogma, but to be specific, I would say the "secular" dogmatists are the bane of our day, rather than religion, which I think we have nearly gotten over.

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Re: An elaboration on duality. East meets West. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8488607 -

:yesnod:

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