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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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alternative to PC?
    #8299943 -

Without a pressure cooker, steaming is obviously the next best alternative, with lower temps, but would it be better to steam in an oven?

My thought is to put a large pot, with a steamer rack inside it, jars etc. on the rack, lid on the pot, and stuff it into the oven. The reason I think the oven would be better is the surrounding heat, as opposed to heat from only underneath on the stovetop - the steam itself would be heated directly. The oven could be set to like 275F, and the steam inside should be able to achieve 225-250, I would think.

right or wrong?

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8299977 -

It will be very difficult to get the steam hotter than 100c, as it will just leave the pot and disperse in the oven. You need a way to hold the steam in the pot; hence, a pressure cooker.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: zouden]
    #8300026 -

Temp and pressure are directly related.
Without a pressure cooker you won't get higher temperatures.
Well I guess you could get a higher water temp if you added salt to the water but the steam wouldn't be any hotter.
:jester:


--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8300119 -

So youre saying, the ambient temperature of the oven being well above the boiling temp of water would not increase the temp of the gaseous phase inside the pot? At some point, the temperature is going to overpower dispersion. Time to go get an oven thermometer and see this for myself.

I guess one thing would be technically wrong tho, if the evaporated water was to get superheated in standard pressures, it wouldnt exactly be steam, it would just be hot-as-hell gaseous h2o - but it could still be useful in sterilizing, no?



Edited by jbl70 (04/18/08 09:15 AM)

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8300175 -

Not sure, probably worth a look though.
Make sure your thermometer is sheltered, you don't want to measure the temp of the oven element thermal radiation by accident.
Volume and temperature are related also so I'd say the steam will expand and leave the pot before it can be superheated.
The steam constantly being created will be pushing out the old steam too so you're hooped on both counts probably.

In a PC the steam is a greater temp and pressure so it forces it's way into the jar and between the grains.
Why this fascination with steam?
Would it be difficult for you to get a PC?
:jester:


--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8300222 -

Peterthinks said:
Would it be difficult for you to get a PC?
:jester:



Its not that I cant, more like - I just dont want to, storing yet another bigass kitchen device which will get limited use, etc., maintenance, storage, blahblah.  But, at the same time, I dont want to completely half-ass it with just steaming.  A compromise would make me very happy - some effectiveness and practicality at the same time.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8300234 -

if you wanna be serious about this hobby you need a pc. otherwise, you're stuck with pf cakes. repeat, if you want to go bulk, buy a pc!!

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8300275 -

Well if makes you feel any better you can make some great stew in them and potatoes cook in no time at all.
Throw in half an onion with your potatoes and mash them after with fresh rosemary salt, butter and pepper....Yum!
(If you use dried rosemary throw it in with the raw potatoes at the beginning)
And your failure rate with a PC is WAY lower than steam.
Easier to control water content too.
Presto cookers are cheap and come with recipe books.
Get one and get rid of something the same size...like a pot, it can do the same job and more.
:jester:


--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: danknugz81]
    #8300439 -

danknugz81 said:
if you wanna be serious about this hobby you need a pc



5 for you !!

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Blutjager]
    #8301127 -

You ever try deep frying your jars?

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: cokaznrebel]
    #8301136 -

cokaznrebel said:
You ever try deep frying your jars?

:dielaughing::strokebeard:

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: cokaznrebel]
    #8301144 -

lol deep frying, this sounds totally hilarious yet quite intriguing

--Psilly

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8301149 -

Go old school and steam them...


--------------------
:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

Edited by Brainiac (04/18/08 02:21 PM)

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Brainiac]
    #8301195 -

i was under the impression he was trying something other than the pf tek.. if you're doing pf cakes then by all means follow the instructions in the video brainiac posted above and steam the jars. if you're doing grain or another bulk substrate, i wouldn't bother. i bought my presto pc for $30 and it does 3 qt jars at a time. i would have bought a larger one, but didnt have the money at the time and i wanted to get started right away. as it turns out, 3 qt jars at a time is not a big deal since im only doing 6 per grow. my jars are nearly fully colonized and no contams whatsoever thus far. pc and glovebox are the way to go IMO. dont skimp on sterility.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: danknugz81]
    #8301231 -

Dude..with anywhere from 20-40 dollars you could buy a good size PC brand new.I bought a 6.5 quart stain less steel Fagor Pressure cooker for only $40

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8301244 -

Peterthinks said:
Well I guess you could get a higher water temp if you added salt to the water but the steam wouldn't be any hotter.
:jester:


True, and not true.

It is true that adding salt to water raises the boiling point - but not by an appreciable amount. Consider the following equation:

delta(T) = Kb * m

where delta(T) = the change in boiling point for the solvent (water = 100°C)
Kb = ebullioscopic ("boiling")constant for the solvent (water = 0.512)
m = molality of solute (not molarity!) which is expressed as the # of moles of solute per 1kg solvent

So consider that we (in theory) want to raise the boiling point of water to 121°C for the purposes of sterilization:

delta(T) = 21°C and Kb = 0.512 and m = ?

m = delta(T) / Kb = 21°C / 0.512 = 41.0
therefore we need 41 moles of NaCl per 1L of water

for #g of NaCl, MW(NaCl) = 58.44277 g/mol thus:
#g NaCl required 54.44277 * 41 = 2.2kg

Ever try to dissolve 2.2kg of salt in 1L of water? :tongue:

To give an appreciation of this, the solubility of NaCl in water is: 359g per 1L of water at 25°C

The temperature of the steam will be (essentially) the same as the temperature of the water due to equilibria.


--------------------
-AV-

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: amanitavirosa]
    #8301273 -

Yea, the substrate temp will only go above boiling temps, once all the water is gone.

My first PC was a 12 quart Mirro. It fits 4 quart jars. Cost about $50. 4 quart jars, may not sound like much, but at a 1:5 spawn ratio, you can expect to get around 3 gallons of substrate. Enough for a respectable monotub.

Better than cakes if you're looking for better yield in a small space.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: Rahz]
    #8302548 -

Amanita, thanks for doing the calculation! :thumbup:
Good to see another biotechnician here!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: jbl70]
    #8302587 -

believe it or not, fractional sterilization works. it's a pain in the ass and you will still get occasional substrate vector contaminations, but it works.

could you find a better alternative? probably; it's bound to happen eventually. suppose it'll come down to how determined you are not to buy a PC :P


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Re: alternative to PC? [Re: canid]
    #8303893 -

zouden said:
Amanita, thanks for doing the calculation! :thumbup:
Good to see another biotechnician here!


:cool: I knew my years of torture would come in handy some day! Yes, it is good to see another biotech. here :grin:

canid said:
believe it or not, fractional sterilization works. it's a pain in the ass and you will still get occasional substrate vector contaminations, but it works.


I agree 100%. Fractional (pain in the ass) sterilization is a great method for those without a pressure cooker. One of the only down-falls is that it requires at least 3 days to complete, but if you are patient, it works! (most of the time)


--------------------
-AV-

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