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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923210 - 01/24/08 06:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You do know I mean extra from what your paying at the present right?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923213 - 01/24/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I was under the impression that Americans spend more for less health care.

The system is broken and corrupt... we pay much more than we should for the health care we receive when compared to other countries.  One example is with emergency rooms at hospitals.  Emergency rooms are not allowed to turn anybody away, thus most emergency rooms are overrun by non-emergency people looking for free health care; the mother taking her child to the emergency room "doctor" for the runny nose types of things.  Another example would the corruption with the FDA (food and drug administration; they regulate the medical fields in the US).  The FDA ensures that big pharm companies have little to no competition.  Canadian drugs, for example, are unsafe.  :rolleyes:

My gripe against universal health care would go away if the system weren't broken.  However, until it is fixed, the government is simply taking my money and giving it to special interest groups in the name of universal health care.  If we fixed the problems, then health care would be affordable, and basic universal health care wouldn't be a big deal.  The way it is currently, universal health care is nothing more than a blank check, backed by the US government, to the medical/pharmaceutical industry.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923247 - 01/24/08 07:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

He's right about that :thumbup:

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7923448 - 01/24/08 09:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Quote:

afoaf said:
universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.




People in the countries who have it seem to like it. Why is it such a joke? I don't see Canada's, or the UK's or France's economies crumbling any time soon.




there's a reason why my grandmother's canadian beau came to america for
ALL OF HIS CANCER TREATMENT.

and it wasn't because he liked spending his fucking money when he got it
for free.

Do you know any French? My wife's family lived their for years...you should
see the dental work they had done there..it's atrocious.

the reason our medical system is the one of the greatest, technologically,
is a result of the free market.

I, personally, don't give two shits if some broke fuck can't get free medical
handouts at my expense.

as someone else pointed out...look at all the failing entitlement programs
that surround us.

you have no idea what you are asking for.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7923552 - 01/24/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I have insurance through my part time job that is just awesome.

We have Blue Cross/Blue Shield, drug coverage, vision, and dental. $10 copays for office visits, but no deductibles on anything else. No payroll deductions whatsoever.

I don't pay a dime for any of it.

And this for working less than 20 hours per week.




Where the hell do you work? Is this a state thing? Can I have your job?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7928696 - 01/25/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:

Do you know any French? My wife's family lived their for years...you should
see the dental work they had done there..it's atrocious.






Lol... that's true. I forgot about the Big Book of British SMiles also.

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7929073 - 01/25/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Like Seuss said, we already have universal health care. If someone shows up at the ER suffering from a heart attack, they HAVE to be treated. Unfortunately, by the time that person reaches the ER, the cost of treating them is enormous. Routine healthcare maintenance maay have treated the problem cheaper. In this respect, paying for universal health care stands to save everyone money.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: badchad]
    #7929294 - 01/25/08 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That;s why I'm for it. my THEORY is that routine maintenance will cause the costs to go down because it prevents major things from happening in the future which are the REAL costly things when it comes to health care so it IS possible that MAYBE universal health care wouldn't cost that much extra.. at least after a while.

A real thorough study would have to be done to look at the costs. I think one good place to start would be comparing the average cost per person for health care ( as well as overall spending on health care) for countries like Canda BEFORE they have universal health care and compare those numbers to 10, 20, 30, 40 years after it was implemented.

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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7931160 - 01/25/08 05:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
That;s why I'm for it. my THEORY is that routine maintenance will cause the costs to go down because it prevents major things from happening in the future which are the REAL costly things when it comes to health care so it IS possible that MAYBE universal health care wouldn't cost that much extra.. at least after a while.

A real thorough study would have to be done to look at the costs. I think one good place to start would be comparing the average cost per person for health care ( as well as overall spending on health care) for countries like Canda BEFORE they have universal health care and compare those numbers to 10, 20, 30, 40 years after it was implemented.




Well, here is a couple of thoughts on the whole debate. I live in Canada and get the benefit of the social medicine system. Prior to last fall, I had no experience with the American private hospitals. Now that I do have that experience, I can comment that the differences (imo) are:

Canadian:
This system has merit in that each person is covered for nearly all medical expenses, related to primary care. It does not cover vision plans, dental plans, etc. You are usually covered for those services by employer plans unless you are native or on welfare. The system relies on priority setting by medical people for serious medical conditions. Sometimes people don't believe that their illness isn't at a critical stage, so they choose treatment elsewhere. A problem with this system is that people waiting for routine exams or tests can be bumped back, or re-scheduled, to accommodate a greater need. This is inconvenient, but not a genuine hardship. No one need lose all of their financial resources to pay for medical treatments. The system gets abused by whiners and snivelers here also. Some of the medical staff (mostly nurses) treat the job as a government job, and the level of service that accompanies that mentality.

American:
I went to a U.S. hospital for an employment medical last fall. It was very comprehensive, including a colonoscopy. I was very impressed with the speed with which the whole medical was done, and the service attitude of all the medical and hospital staff. I have little idea how much the bill was, but I guarantee you I could not have paid the bill without selling investments or taking out a loan. I did not see a whole lot of people in the emergency area over the course of the 2 days I was there, so maybe this hospital is not convenient for the uninsured.

Point is, money talks in the U.S. system, you can get anything you want whether you need it or not. Money is not a factor in the Canadian system. Medical condition determines level of service here.
Somewhere between these 2 systems is a medium that will work; fairly cost effective, and not prohibitively expensive for the average person.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Invisiblehillbilly32
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: psycho.reactive]
    #7933765 - 01/26/08 05:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you did a comparison of how much America spends annually on military versus how much they spend on Health care, you would be shocked.
All this military funding and all it does is making killing people more efficient.
The government loves to play the "for defensive purposes" or "to fight terrorism" lines, but really, the threat is so hyped up its not funny any more.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hillbilly32]
    #7934161 - 01/26/08 09:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you did a comparison of how much America spends annually on military versus how much they spend on Health care, you would be shocked.




I presume you were shocked when you did this comparison? For the record, then, why don't you provide us (with supporting links to credible sources, please) the amount the US spent on the military last year as well as the amount the US spent on health care, so we can be shocked too.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Phred]
    #7934204 - 01/26/08 10:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would love to see that myself. I'm not easily shocked and could use a jolt now and then


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hillbilly32]
    #7934409 - 01/26/08 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sure thing.






Vote Ron paul to make it better.

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hummermania00]
    #7934436 - 01/26/08 11:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for the insight, hummer.

It would be cool to get a breakdown of how much your taxes in America get divied up amongst all federal spending categories... and then to get a breakdown of the same thing for Canada so we can see how much of their taxes get sucked into health care.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7939515 - 01/27/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

or more importantly why he had to get a colon poke for his new job...


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7939543 - 01/27/08 10:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yea...

Sometimes I hear in Britain that to get certain jobs, you have to pass physical test. What the fuck is up with that? That's just plain WRONG... borderline communist.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7942410 - 01/27/08 08:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

As a disabled vet that depends on government health care, for my service connected disabilities......trust me, you dont want the government in charge of your well being.


If you don't believe me, ask ten random vets about their personal experience with government health care. The vast majority will state something similar to the above.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #7942439 - 01/27/08 08:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I live right by Walter Reed. My grandfather stayed there a while. I know about that kinda care... never really thought about it like that to be honest.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7942913 - 01/27/08 09:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Yea...

Sometimes I hear in Britain that to get certain jobs, you have to pass physical test. What the fuck is up with that? That's just plain WRONG... borderline communist.




Britain has just been getting more socialized as time goes on. It won't be long before America follows suit.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Minstrel]
    #7942965 - 01/27/08 09:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

*edit*
misread

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