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OfflineBrAiN
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For those against universal health care
    #7918921 - 01/23/08 07:03 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

For those against Universal Health care, which idea bothers you the most (serious question)?

a) The money issue (taxes going up to pay for a bunch of welfare queens)

or

b) The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down or that people will have to wait forever for critical operations or that we'll have the governmeny 'choosing' our doctors)

or

c) these bother me equally

I'm just curious.

If either the taxes or the beaurocracy are your problem, would you be more likely to support health care if HYPOTHETICALLY either one of these two (or both) could be kept to a manageable level (like taxes only going up a few bucks a month for you or knowing that your health care level would be pretty much the same as it is now)


I voted (d) I'm for univeral health care, but I think those who are against it have a valid point. It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to. I'm just curious as to what the opponents are MOST concerned with more than anything
what bothers you most about universal health care
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/23/08 07:03 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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Offlineidreamofpiggies
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7918937 - 01/23/08 07:10 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to




By that same token you could say that people shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes if they don't want to...
Pretty silly statement if you ask me.


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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. - marianne williamson

What I do nobody notices... Till it stops - Garry Talent on the Bass.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919021 - 01/23/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

What about personal responsibility and accountability?

Well of your choices, I choose taxes. We already cannot provide all the entitlements we promise to old people. The biggest piece of the national debt is to old people to whom we promised money they didnt earn. If we want a serious debate on providing more entitlement, we need first to find a way to pay for the old entitlements.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919034 - 01/23/08 08:04 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I already have universal health care, and it has been working fine for my entire life, so can't really say that anything bothers me about it :smile:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919112 - 01/23/08 08:32 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7919119 - 01/23/08 08:34 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I already have universal health care, and it has been working fine for my entire life, so can't really say that anything bothers me about it :smile:




Same here.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

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:heartpump:


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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7919133 - 01/23/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US? Universal care is crappy. Romneys plan is decent. You chose the provider and the govt pays for it. That sounds like a better deal. I had masshealth and you had to stay awake for operations instead of being put out with real insurance. Fuck that!


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: rizingfire]
    #7919153 - 01/23/08 08:50 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

rizingfire said:
I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US?




Not really, but I have noticed a lot of well-insured Americans saying that.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7919165 - 01/23/08 08:55 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

You chose the provider and the govt pays for it.




Sorta how it works here in Sweden. Plenty of private clinics, growing in number, where the government picks up the tab.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7919168 - 01/23/08 08:55 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.




People in the countries who have it seem to like it. Why is it such a joke? I don't see Canada's, or the UK's or France's economies crumbling any time soon.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: rizingfire]
    #7919173 - 01/23/08 08:57 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

rizingfire said:
I would prefer privatized care instead. Notice how Canadians prefer to get stuff done on visits to the US? Universal care is crappy. Romneys plan is decent. You chose the provider and the govt pays for it. That sounds like a better deal. I had masshealth and you had to stay awake for operations instead of being put out with real insurance. Fuck that!




That's what I'm talking about. Universal Health care doesn't HAVE to mean the gov't runs health care. The gov't gives poor people food stamps but you don't have to go to a government run supermarket to get your food.

Is that was Mitt is actually proposing?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: idreamofpiggies]
    #7919183 - 01/23/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

idreamofpiggies said:
Quote:

It IS a free country and in a free country you shouldn't be forced to pay for someone else if you don't want to




By that same token you could say that people shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes if they don't want to...
Pretty silly statement if you ask me.




Well.. everyone uses roads. Your house might burn down and the firemen are a "free" taxpayer service but if you didn't have them and were too poor to afford a firetruck to come to your place, your neighborhodo would burn to the ground.

The only benefit to the "good" of society to have universal health care is to raise the general health level so overall, less money needs to be spent on operations because people can get prevention treatment and diseases detected early on.

That sort of "general benefit" isn't as immediate of a benefit as your neighborhood burning down in a few hours... but for me, I think it's good enough reason to have some sort of universal system.

For you older americans here in the forum, was was health care in the states like back in the 60's? Were major operations just as expensive? Were insurance companies just a rampant back then or when people had 100,000 dollar operations were they forced to come up with a payment plan?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919306 - 01/23/08 10:25 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Those of you who voted for it, should do some research into what those who have plans to get everyone covered entail. from what I have read about their different plans , one thing is consistent. They'll get everyone covered by making it a LAW that you have to be buying coverage through your employer.

If you will be able to afford to have premiums taken out of your paycheck later, why don't you have them taken out now?

It's going hurt those living pay check to paycheck.

Secondly, whatever 'free care" may become available to those without a job, it will be very shoddy and a lot of care will be denied or prolonged, to the point of where it may be useless by the time you can get treatment done.

In the mean time, you are helping to a create a system, that will screw you over when you get better established later in life, if private choice for doctors and specialists are no longer covered by the insurance the government has set up for you through your employer.

It's a no wonder this country has taken so many wrong turns towards a nanny state. People buy the "feel good" and "do for me now" rhetoric and make poor choices to support poor actions that favor big Corp, not the little guy in the end.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7920085 - 01/23/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



--------------------
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God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920380 - 01/23/08 04:02 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Nope. Part of the law would change it so insurance companies can no longer deny for pre-existing conditions. Socialism at it's best. I would much rather see them fix the medical industry as a whole so that socialist medicine would not be needed. Unfortunately, the problems are complex and far reaching... everything from special interests to illegal aliens to corrupt doctors to ambulance chasing lawyers.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920385 - 01/23/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

They'll get everyone covered by making it a LAW that you have to be buying coverage through your employer.




I have cirohsis and I have been denied by every insurance company and medicaid becuase of this pre-existing condition. Which is no problem I pay cash, except I can't afford a liver transplant which I don't need anyway.

My question is: since I can't get insurance would I be violating the law if this so-called universal healthcare proposal is affirmed?




That's a good question and I havn't heard it asked of the canidates proposing it or answered.

It needs to be answered because in at least one of their plans, you will have to have proof of insurance before you can be hired for a job.

I wish I could remember whose that one was. I think it's Hillary's.

Find a Hillary forum somewhere and ask them. I wonder if they even know the answer or thought about it about how it will work for those who are currently denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7920450 - 01/23/08 04:24 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

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--------------------
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Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7920797 - 01/23/08 05:25 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

You must have shitty insurance.

Do yourself a favor and don't get all of your information from Mr. Moore.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineChemy
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Re: For those against universal health care *DELETED* [Re: Chemy]
    #7920859 - 01/23/08 05:39 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!


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Offlinepsycho.reactive
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7921075 - 01/23/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down or that people will have to wait forever for critical operations or that we'll have the governmeny 'choosing' our doctors) <- this is not really a issue but more of a myth which has been proven not true

i guess "government for the people by the people" has no relevance anymore. but i guess if you like the idea of hospitals literally throwing sick people out onto the streets, the HMO system is splendid.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Chemy]
    #7922446 - 01/23/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

--


Edited by BrAiN (03/13/08 12:16 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7922622 - 01/23/08 11:32 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I have insurance through my part time job that is just awesome.

We have Blue Cross/Blue Shield, drug coverage, vision, and dental. $10 copays for office visits, but no deductibles on anything else. No payroll deductions whatsoever.

I don't pay a dime for any of it.

And this for working less than 20 hours per week.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: psycho.reactive]
    #7922982 - 01/24/08 02:17 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

> this is not really a issue but more of a myth which has been proven not true

Really? Source please, as I would like to read the studies that prove this myth. This could be huge! I think it will be the first time ever that more government involvement has resulted in less bureaucracy and more efficiency in a process.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923082 - 01/24/08 04:26 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

What's up with this "bureaucracy"? I have never had a sensation of slow bureaucracy when dealing with the government. These days everything is done by computers.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923103 - 01/24/08 04:45 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

> I have never had a sensation of slow bureaucracy when dealing with the government.

From what I remember, you also don't live in the US.  :grin:

(In the US, it is next to impossible to get fired from the Federal government... lazy or incompetent Federal employees are generally promoted to get rid of them, by moving them to another department through the promotion.  Hiring in the Federal government is done on a point system that uses things like military experience, race, and gender rather than being qualified for the job, to determine who gets the job.)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923133 - 01/24/08 05:12 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

My problem is the money issue mixed with lack of choice.

If I were allowed to opt out of the universal system to keep using my private insurance, which meant I didn't have to pay into the universal insurance, I wouldn't care if it was adopted.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7923135 - 01/24/08 05:13 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Come on people. Work together for the greater good. People against universal healthcare make me sick. Its greed pure and simple.
If you needed the help you would be singing a whole differnt tune.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923137 - 01/24/08 05:17 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

The idea of a "greater good" makes me sick.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Redstorm]
    #7923141 - 01/24/08 05:21 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Sorry. I'm a team player.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923144 - 01/24/08 05:22 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

> Work together for the greater good. People against universal healthcare make me sick.

Yeah, I feel the same way about people that lock their doors at night. We should be giving all of our stuff away to the less fortunate for the greater good of humanity. Greedy bastards that wont give their homes away to the homeless guys on the streets. Shame on you!


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923145 - 01/24/08 05:23 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

A collectivist?


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923161 - 01/24/08 05:54 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Damn socialists. Soon they'll want us to give away our brains too. Sick I tell you :sad:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923166 - 01/24/08 05:59 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Universal health care doesn't mean you have to pay extra for it.
Something as simple as abolishing the failed war on drugs would provide enough money to provide free coast to coast healthcare


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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923170 - 01/24/08 06:05 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

You chose the provider and the govt pays for it.




Sorta how it works here in Sweden. Plenty of private clinics, growing in number, where the government picks up the tab.





See, to me that sounds like the perfect plan if you can choose. I just am worried that the care would be like when I had Massheatlh. The service was extremely substandard to the insurance I have now. The care was noticably different.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923171 - 01/24/08 06:06 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

> Universal health care doesn't mean you have to pay extra for it.

Unless health care is free, then somebody has to pay for it... I pay quite a lot of my salary to my own health care... I really don't want to pay for somebody that is too lazy to work or take care of their body as well.

> Something as simple as abolishing the failed war on drugs would provide enough money to provide free coast to coast healthcare

Why not end the war on drugs and stop taking my money in the first place rather than giving my money from one failed government bureaucracy to another.

The problem with universal health care is that it doesn't fix the problem and instead rewards those that create the problem by giving them tax money. If we fixed the health care problems, then there would be no need for universal health care, as health care would be affordable to everybody. Right now, we are simply proposing that a blank check be given from the government to the health care industry.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923173 - 01/24/08 06:12 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I didn't say it was free. I said you wouldn't have to pay extra if something like abolishing the war on drugs was done. Derrr


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923189 - 01/24/08 06:38 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
Universal health care doesn't mean you have to pay extra for it.
Something as simple as abolishing the failed war on drugs would provide enough money to provide free coast to coast healthcare




Taking money from something else should mean that it will cost more?

I was under the impression that Americans spend more for less health care. Allthou might be one of those myths you hear about.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923193 - 01/24/08 06:45 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Sorry I still havnt slept your post confused me. Could you please elaborate


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Cubie]
    #7923199 - 01/24/08 06:48 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Not to pay extra for something, but taking funds from something else must mean, in the end, that you will pay extra for whatever that may be? :smile:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923206 - 01/24/08 06:53 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I don't get how you come to that.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923210 - 01/24/08 06:54 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

You do know I mean extra from what your paying at the present right?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Arp]
    #7923213 - 01/24/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

> I was under the impression that Americans spend more for less health care.

The system is broken and corrupt... we pay much more than we should for the health care we receive when compared to other countries.  One example is with emergency rooms at hospitals.  Emergency rooms are not allowed to turn anybody away, thus most emergency rooms are overrun by non-emergency people looking for free health care; the mother taking her child to the emergency room "doctor" for the runny nose types of things.  Another example would the corruption with the FDA (food and drug administration; they regulate the medical fields in the US).  The FDA ensures that big pharm companies have little to no competition.  Canadian drugs, for example, are unsafe.  :rolleyes:

My gripe against universal health care would go away if the system weren't broken.  However, until it is fixed, the government is simply taking my money and giving it to special interest groups in the name of universal health care.  If we fixed the problems, then health care would be affordable, and basic universal health care wouldn't be a big deal.  The way it is currently, universal health care is nothing more than a blank check, backed by the US government, to the medical/pharmaceutical industry.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Seuss]
    #7923247 - 01/24/08 07:22 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

He's right about that :thumbup:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7923448 - 01/24/08 09:00 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Quote:

afoaf said:
universal health care is a joke.

like social security reform and the war on drugs.




People in the countries who have it seem to like it. Why is it such a joke? I don't see Canada's, or the UK's or France's economies crumbling any time soon.




there's a reason why my grandmother's canadian beau came to america for
ALL OF HIS CANCER TREATMENT.

and it wasn't because he liked spending his fucking money when he got it
for free.

Do you know any French? My wife's family lived their for years...you should
see the dental work they had done there..it's atrocious.

the reason our medical system is the one of the greatest, technologically,
is a result of the free market.

I, personally, don't give two shits if some broke fuck can't get free medical
handouts at my expense.

as someone else pointed out...look at all the failing entitlement programs
that surround us.

you have no idea what you are asking for.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7923552 - 01/24/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I have insurance through my part time job that is just awesome.

We have Blue Cross/Blue Shield, drug coverage, vision, and dental. $10 copays for office visits, but no deductibles on anything else. No payroll deductions whatsoever.

I don't pay a dime for any of it.

And this for working less than 20 hours per week.




Where the hell do you work? Is this a state thing? Can I have your job?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7928696 - 01/25/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:

Do you know any French? My wife's family lived their for years...you should
see the dental work they had done there..it's atrocious.






Lol... that's true. I forgot about the Big Book of British SMiles also.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7929073 - 01/25/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Like Seuss said, we already have universal health care. If someone shows up at the ER suffering from a heart attack, they HAVE to be treated. Unfortunately, by the time that person reaches the ER, the cost of treating them is enormous. Routine healthcare maintenance maay have treated the problem cheaper. In this respect, paying for universal health care stands to save everyone money.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: badchad]
    #7929294 - 01/25/08 11:05 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

That;s why I'm for it. my THEORY is that routine maintenance will cause the costs to go down because it prevents major things from happening in the future which are the REAL costly things when it comes to health care so it IS possible that MAYBE universal health care wouldn't cost that much extra.. at least after a while.

A real thorough study would have to be done to look at the costs. I think one good place to start would be comparing the average cost per person for health care ( as well as overall spending on health care) for countries like Canda BEFORE they have universal health care and compare those numbers to 10, 20, 30, 40 years after it was implemented.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7931160 - 01/25/08 05:49 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
That;s why I'm for it. my THEORY is that routine maintenance will cause the costs to go down because it prevents major things from happening in the future which are the REAL costly things when it comes to health care so it IS possible that MAYBE universal health care wouldn't cost that much extra.. at least after a while.

A real thorough study would have to be done to look at the costs. I think one good place to start would be comparing the average cost per person for health care ( as well as overall spending on health care) for countries like Canda BEFORE they have universal health care and compare those numbers to 10, 20, 30, 40 years after it was implemented.




Well, here is a couple of thoughts on the whole debate. I live in Canada and get the benefit of the social medicine system. Prior to last fall, I had no experience with the American private hospitals. Now that I do have that experience, I can comment that the differences (imo) are:

Canadian:
This system has merit in that each person is covered for nearly all medical expenses, related to primary care. It does not cover vision plans, dental plans, etc. You are usually covered for those services by employer plans unless you are native or on welfare. The system relies on priority setting by medical people for serious medical conditions. Sometimes people don't believe that their illness isn't at a critical stage, so they choose treatment elsewhere. A problem with this system is that people waiting for routine exams or tests can be bumped back, or re-scheduled, to accommodate a greater need. This is inconvenient, but not a genuine hardship. No one need lose all of their financial resources to pay for medical treatments. The system gets abused by whiners and snivelers here also. Some of the medical staff (mostly nurses) treat the job as a government job, and the level of service that accompanies that mentality.

American:
I went to a U.S. hospital for an employment medical last fall. It was very comprehensive, including a colonoscopy. I was very impressed with the speed with which the whole medical was done, and the service attitude of all the medical and hospital staff. I have little idea how much the bill was, but I guarantee you I could not have paid the bill without selling investments or taking out a loan. I did not see a whole lot of people in the emergency area over the course of the 2 days I was there, so maybe this hospital is not convenient for the uninsured.

Point is, money talks in the U.S. system, you can get anything you want whether you need it or not. Money is not a factor in the Canadian system. Medical condition determines level of service here.
Somewhere between these 2 systems is a medium that will work; fairly cost effective, and not prohibitively expensive for the average person.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: psycho.reactive]
    #7933765 - 01/26/08 05:30 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

If you did a comparison of how much America spends annually on military versus how much they spend on Health care, you would be shocked.
All this military funding and all it does is making killing people more efficient.
The government loves to play the "for defensive purposes" or "to fight terrorism" lines, but really, the threat is so hyped up its not funny any more.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hillbilly32]
    #7934161 - 01/26/08 09:47 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

If you did a comparison of how much America spends annually on military versus how much they spend on Health care, you would be shocked.




I presume you were shocked when you did this comparison? For the record, then, why don't you provide us (with supporting links to credible sources, please) the amount the US spent on the military last year as well as the amount the US spent on health care, so we can be shocked too.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Phred]
    #7934204 - 01/26/08 10:04 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I would love to see that myself. I'm not easily shocked and could use a jolt now and then


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OfflineCubie
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hillbilly32]
    #7934409 - 01/26/08 11:05 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Sure thing.






Vote Ron paul to make it better.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: hummermania00]
    #7934436 - 01/26/08 11:12 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

thanks for the insight, hummer.

It would be cool to get a breakdown of how much your taxes in America get divied up amongst all federal spending categories... and then to get a breakdown of the same thing for Canada so we can see how much of their taxes get sucked into health care.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7939515 - 01/27/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

or more importantly why he had to get a colon poke for his new job...


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: afoaf]
    #7939543 - 01/27/08 10:02 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Yea...

Sometimes I hear in Britain that to get certain jobs, you have to pass physical test. What the fuck is up with that? That's just plain WRONG... borderline communist.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7942410 - 01/27/08 08:15 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

As a disabled vet that depends on government health care, for my service connected disabilities......trust me, you dont want the government in charge of your well being.


If you don't believe me, ask ten random vets about their personal experience with government health care. The vast majority will state something similar to the above.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #7942439 - 01/27/08 08:21 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I live right by Walter Reed. My grandfather stayed there a while. I know about that kinda care... never really thought about it like that to be honest.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: BrAiN]
    #7942913 - 01/27/08 09:42 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Yea...

Sometimes I hear in Britain that to get certain jobs, you have to pass physical test. What the fuck is up with that? That's just plain WRONG... borderline communist.




Britain has just been getting more socialized as time goes on. It won't be long before America follows suit.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: For those against universal health care [Re: Minstrel]
    #7942965 - 01/27/08 09:49 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

*edit*
misread


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