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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora)
    #7344822 -

There are a lot of threads here concerning the grafting of Lophophora's, but when your grafted loph grows to maturity, whaddya do then ? Graft-grown loph's are not as active as those grown own-root. There are a lot of theories on why this is, but we won't concern ourselves with that now. Today we'll de-graft a lophophora and start it growing it's own roots.

This time last year, August 2006, a two-inch loph was grafted to the San Pedro. The scion was approx. 1 year old.



Here it is a year later, just before de-grafting ...







I removed the top of the Pedro, then excised all the Pedro I could from the scion. I also removed 8 offsets and grafted them to some T. Cuzcoensis. The scion wast then dusted with rooting hormone and left to callus.



I filled a clay pot about half-way with cactus soil, and sat the loph on top of the soil. I then covered the loph and soil with a layer of gravel, so that only the very top of the loph was exposed to light.



The plant is now outside in the shade, where it will stay for a month. At the end of that time we will uncover the plant and check for roots. See ya then -- OTP


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: one time post]
    #7344870 -

nice :thumbup:

sure it wasnt a 2cm scion when grafted, thats one thick ass trich if not...


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7345129 -

Quote:
sure it wasnt a 2cm scion when grafted, thats one thick ass trich if not...


The Pedro is about 6" in diameter -- on of my fattest ...


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7345164 -

uarewotueat said:
nice :thumbup:

sure it wasnt a 2cm scion when grafted, thats one thick ass trich if not...



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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: royer]
    #7345709 -

alright then, was the scion a seedling graft originally?


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7347585 -

uarewotueat said:
alright then, was the scion a seedling graft originally?


It was a seedling, a bit over one year old. Here's some pics of the other recently degrafted loph, which was grown on a T. Cuzcoensis. The growth time-frame is the same, but this loph never offset, but it produced more flowers than any other loph I've ever grown.







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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: one time post]
    #7347672 -

a loph grown from seed to 2" diameter in one year... sorry but i find that quite hard to believe...

nice grafting skills u have though :tongue:


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7371158 -

I think that simply saying that graft grown cactus is not as potent as root grown is a bit misleading... not that your deliberately trying to be misleading, as this is generally accepted to be the case...
however just the way it was phrased might lead to misunderstanding in someone who isnt aware of the growth habits of cactus -
Im sure you know this already onetimepost, but the reasons that graft grown cacti are weaker are several
(from what we "do" know, and there is still much investigation to be done in this dept)

Firstly, graft grown cactus reaches mature "size" much faster than root grown cacti which is obviously why people graft in the first place!,,, however there is evidence to show that lophophora and trichocereus etc dont start really producing (the type of) alkaloid profiles (most people here are looking for) until they reach a certain maturity in terms of age... often several years old Im led to believe
(but I do not know the exact age or even if it can be determined this concretely, or if environmental and other factors may come into play in the equation as well)..
Sadly some of the more popular stocks being used in grafting currently such as pereskiopsis and hylocereus will not sustain the grafts long enough to reach a substantial alkaloid producing age...

Secondly, it was believed that there could be potential alkaloid migration between trichocereus graft stock and a scion such as lophophora, therefore increasing the overall potency...
this appears to be a somewhat of wishful thinking, or it doesnt seem to be as simple as all that at least,,,
(however there was an instance documented where a myrtillo graft stock seemed to "recieve" alkaloid migration from its lophophora scion, but no reasons for this have been determined... if this is the case... perhaps there could be potential for a situation where migration from stock to scion might occur - the jury is still out and more research needs to be done)
however trichocereus will sustaina loph graft much longer than hylocereus and pereski, generally, and they usually tend to outgrow the tricho base and become dislodged before they can reach alkaloid producing ages. (Im sure some people have sustained thier lopho grafts on tricho's for years,, but I have no experience in this area as of yet)

Thirdly there is alot of ppl looking into whether the factors of seasonal alkaloid production, or environmental factors such as drought, damage to the cactus, are as signifigant of factors as some people seem to think in raising alkaloid profiles in sacred cacti... there still needs to be more information before any serious assertions can be made regarding this...
Obviously because of the beneficial aspects of graft stock in thier enhanced delivery of fluids to thier scions it would be next to impossible to create a situation inducing drought conditions in the scions, not without killing the graft stock or nearly...
Also the grafted specimens I have seen are generally kept in the most favorable conditions possible...
Anyhow the reasons are a little complex and newly discovered information adds yet more complexities to the question all the time.
While Im sure the poster is aware of all these things...
I wanted to elaborate slightly for some folks who might be interested in some of the reasons why graft grown cacti might be weaker than root grown cacti...
My understanding of cacti is elementary yet,
(although I try and absorb as much info as I can on the subject,) and I may have mistated/overstated[/understated/whatever] etc regarding this subject
If I have... and I am wrong, please correct me. Hopefully more dialogue will expose some of the mysteries regarding this subject
Cheers
Cw

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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: charliewired]
    #7371575 -

Excellent explanation ! After de-grafting and re-rooting, the loph will be left to grow for 2 to 4 years, own root. It will, IMO, be as potent as a mature loph grown entirely own root.

I have tried stressing the plants, i.e. withholding water for months, exposing to 16 hours direct tropical sun, etc., but I can't tel a difference in activity. I have even tried foliar feeding them with abscisic acid and DMSO, to raise activity, abscisic acid being the signaller of plant stress. Didn't seem to make a difference either.


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: one time post]
    #7373720 -

I am in the process of doing this myself at the moment. I only grafted my Lophophora this season though so I will wait a few years before I de-graft. I do have a Lophophora button that is rooting itself at the moment. I planted it about a month or two ago after letting it heal well over and there are already shoots of new roots coming out. The question is how long it will take to grow a tap root that matches the buttons size. 2 to 4 years seems like a good time but I doubt it will have the same potency as a cactus grown on its own roots as the alkaloids tend to build up as the peyote grows old. Desert grown peyote tend to be more potent than home grown of the same size due to the large age gap.

I will post up some pictures and details of my rooting button on a seperate post, check it out soon.

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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Williamsii]
    #7373936 -

Williamsii said:
I do have a Lophophora button that is rooting itself at the moment. I planted it about a month or two ago after letting it heal well over and there are already shoots of new roots coming out. The question is how long it will take to grow a tap root that matches the buttons size.


With a mature sized loph, a full-size root can be grown in less than 6 months. However, IME, it takes veery little root for the button to begin hydrating again. The pics below are of a button from a failed graft. The button was grafted for about 6 weeks before I removed it and placed it in a pot for re-rooting. Now, about 6 weeks later, the button is fully hydrated (it was severely dehydrated when potted), and is growing 2 offsets, along with new roots.







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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: one time post]
    #7374570 -

Even if its less potent isn't there more cacti that you could consume.


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7374623 -

uarewotueat said:
a loph grown from seed to 2" diameter in one year... sorry but i find that quite hard to believe...


Totally agreed! That plant wasn´t grafted for only one year for sure, sorry OTP... :tongue:


FH

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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: felixhigh]
    #7374691 -

felixhigh said:
uarewotueat said:
a loph grown from seed to 2" diameter in one year... sorry but i find that quite hard to believe...


Totally agreed! That plant wasn´t grafted for only one year for sure, sorry OTP... :tongue:


FH


nah felix, he claims the scion was grown from seed, on its own roots, to 2" diameter in a single year...
so thats probably more unbelievable then u though originally :lol:

lophs dont grow to 2" on their own roots in a single year for sure.
:whoah: :whoah: :whoah:


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7374744 -

I come to a site like this to give others the benefit of my experience. To give back some of what I've learned during my last 30 years of growing. I don't post lies, I try not to exagerate.

http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8567

That's the thread where I did the original graft (Aug. 26th of last year). If you look around the site you can find the other grafts, too. Sorry, I didn't take any pics of the seedlings :eek:, I didn't know I'd need evidence ...


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: one time post]
    #7374839 -

no offence meant OTP, but that is an outlandish claim... therefore hard to believe.
however, i can and do believe that your grafted specimen could reach such a size to warrant degrafting, in a single year.
its just the original scion age that i doubt.

btw: forums are for sharing of opinions, not only to show off your skills :wink:


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7374846 -

uarewotueat said:
felixhigh said:
uarewotueat said:
a loph grown from seed to 2" diameter in one year... sorry but i find that quite hard to believe...


Totally agreed! That plant wasn´t grafted for only one year for sure, sorry OTP... :tongue:


FH


nah felix, he claims the scion was grown from seed, on its own roots, to 2" diameter in a single year...
so thats probably more unbelievable then u though originally :lol:

lophs dont grow to 2" on their own roots in a single year for sure.
:whoah: :whoah: :whoah:


He said the seedling was 1 year when grafted if I understood him right. And then after a year he degrafted it.


Edit: strike that. I didn't read it right:lol:


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Edited by Nalim (09/06/07 03:12 PM)

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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Nalim]
    #7374860 -

no mate, he said the scion was 2" diamater and only one year old from seed... then it was grafted :tongue:


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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Nalim]
    #7374865 -

Nalim said:
He said the seedling was 1 year when grafted if I understood him right. And then after a year he degrafted it.



Thats what I understood, but anyways, not even a grafted Lopho grows that much in a single year, mine took way more, and I do live in a tropical country so lighting is not an issue.

Thanks for your good will OTP, just keep trying not to exaggerate your deeds!


FH

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Re: De-Capitating Pedro (or rooting a de-grafted Lophophora) [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7374867 -

Yeah I saw that right after posting that.. I edited it..

That's a fast fuckin growing scion.
I do believe him though. He seems pretty good at this.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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