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Offlineatlas
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Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 166
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Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70778 - 01/07/00 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

if you are sterilizing your substrate as in the pf tek then the holes in top are sufficient but if the jars are sealed then yes you need a way to release the pressure inside of them, such as loosening the lids.


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"....there are no restraints on the Federal Reserve, the Fed is master of all it controls."
-Murray N. Rothbard


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Anonymous

Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70780 - 01/07/00 10:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I was using Shroom Wizards method with loosening the lids before. Now that I have a syringe I'll try another method, the one with the holes on the top. Maybe a layer of vermiculite will help prevent contamination while still relieving pressure.

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"When you're high you never, ever want to come down"- Welcome to the Jungle, by Guns n' Roses



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Anonymous

Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70781 - 01/07/00 11:10 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You know, when sterilizing normal things such as canning fruits or something your supposed to make the lids hand tight. I think the lids expand with heat. After they cool down then you need to tighten them.

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Anonymous

Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70782 - 01/08/00 01:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, so I should have them loosened but not completely off? Is that going to release the pressure? It's one of those two-part lids, one is a flat piece you place over the top of the jar and the other is the round piece you screw on to hold the flat piece in place. If it's loosened, won't it still be air tight, or close to?

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"When you're high you never, ever want to come down"- Welcome to the Jungle, by Guns n' Roses



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OfflineCode
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Registered: 04/12/99
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Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70783 - 01/08/00 06:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Tighten them as much as you like, you will not be able to generate enough pressure to crack a canning jar.

The temperature inside the jar while boiling will not exceed 100C, so even if the jar is well sealed, the pressure will not rise significantly.

In a pressure cooker, the temp, and therefore the pressure, both inside and outside the jar will be close to equal.



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OfflineGadget
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Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70784 - 01/08/00 06:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Think of a car radiator, with only an 8lb psi cap water won't boil till 230 or so.

Since jars will never be hotter than the water they are in, 100c @ standard atmoshpheric pressure. Thus a sealed jar will not exceed 1 or 2 pounds pressure max while in open vessel of boiling water.

If Jars are inside a pressure cooker, same thing happens, but since pressure in cooker rises, the pressure difference inside jar verus outside of jar (inside of pressure cooker) is negligable. Actually I would believe it to become a negative pressure differance.

However, if pressure cooker were to suffer sudden pressure loss, by failure of seal, or submersion in cold water, you could have a problem. Since water in jar would be very hot >100c interenal jar pressure could become a problem. Thus it is wise to allow cooker and its contents to cool gradually.

Peace
/Gadget



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Anonymous

Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70785 - 01/08/00 10:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ah I see, thank you very much Gadget!
I never thought about how since the pressure outside is the same, it won't crack. I always thought since it's high inside the jar it should, but I didn't realize it depends on the outside pressure. Now I don't have to worry. I'm always nervous when sterilizing, hoping that they won't crack, but now I don't have to worry.
Two more question though: 1) What if the lid on the pot is not air tight? Won't the pressure stay the same (since water vapour/air is escaping) while the pressure inside the jar is higher?
2) If the jar is touching the heat source; bottom of pot, or in my case the heating element inside the tea kettle (It's hard to explain but I use a tea kettle which works perfect. Only holds one jar, but you can open up the lid and place the jar inside. There is a metal thing near the bottom that heats up and therefore heats the water) can the jar crack since it's getting too hot? I think I've heard this before while reading one of the techniques, it says to use a washcloth so the jar isn't touching the bottom.

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"When you're high you never, ever want to come down"- Welcome to the Jungle, by Guns n' Roses



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OfflineGadget
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Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70786 - 01/08/00 11:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

OK, tea kettle, works for me.

Its non-pressurized, which is fine.

IMPORTANT that jar must not rest directly on bottom! Reason, bottom of kettle may exceed 100c (water can't cool it because bottom of jar is there) this will cause a tempature gradient, which will cause glass to expand, but only where the glass touches the hot metal bottom. Rest of glass (that touching water) will remain at 100c and no greater. If thermal expansion of glass is high enough it will create stress and crack the glass.

So, its important to place a wash cloth or something on the bottom to prevent glass touching metal. (or allow jar to float)

With regards to a sealed jar: Your vessel is not pressurized, there for your water will boil at 100c or less. the temp of the water (no mater how high the boil) will never exceed 100c. Thus the jar, and its contents will never exceed 100c. thus the internal pressure of the jar will only possible go up maybe 1 or 2 psi. Thus the sealed jar will be fine.

Now if your wondering why boiling water will never exceed 100c no matter how high you turn up the heat, try this. Any water molecule >100c will change state from liguid to gas, consequently if there is any liquid water, it MUST be @ or below 100c, otherwise it would be a gas (at standard temp/pressure)

Which brings up another important point regarding pressure cookers. The point being why it is important NOT to allow you pressure cooker to boil dry. Once all liquid water is gone, the temp will SKYROCKET really fast. If you have sealed jars inside this pressure cooker, the temp of the jars will skyrocket also. If those jars contain liquid water, it will try to turn into a gas, but since the jar is sealed ther is no place for the gas to go, thus the pressure inside the jar rapidly climbs till something gives (the lid, or the glass). SO its real important to not boil out all the water!

If it helps, I too was real worried about boiling sealed jars. That was untill I did the mental excersise on what would happen. I can still see my 9th grade chemistry teacher talking about temp/pressure stuff, and thats more than 15yrs ago! :wink: Funny how you remember things, I'm fairly certain she was wearing a plaid dress that day, short hair and mean as hell!

Peace
/Gadget



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Anonymous

Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70787 - 01/09/00 04:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks again Gadget, you answered my questions well!
I've always wondered about something. If you had a pot that was air tight, wouldn't that increase the boiling point the way a pressure cooker does. If that's true, any air-tight pot would be just like a pressure cooker. The water begins to vapourize and increases the pressure. If the lid is air tight, the pressure can not be released, so it continues to increase. To minimize the stress, the water will not want to boil because that would create an even higher pressure. As a result the water will not boil as easily (a higher temperature is needed). Eventually it will come to equilibrium with a high pressure but also a high temperature. That way the water can get higher than 100C just like in a pressure cooker. It's just something I was wondering, I was thinking of starting a new topic for this, maybe I will, maybe not.

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"When you're high you never, ever want to come down"- Welcome to the Jungle, by Guns n' Roses



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OfflineGadget
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Registered: 11/17/99
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Re: Jar lids loosened during sterilization?
    #70788 - 01/09/00 04:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Correct, Once water in sealed jar tries to boil, it icreases pressure, which creates new boiling point. That new boiling point will be higher than the boiling point of the tea kettle, thus pressure/temp inside jar reaches equilibrium, Life is good.

Have Fun
/Gadget



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