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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Atheist]
    #6608330 -

I say this about whats before and after this life(see my sign):


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Rodney Brooks on Robots
Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608347 -

You're naked too? I love posting nude.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608503 -

We are humans.


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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Shroomism]
    #6608523 -

It was a linguistic excess.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608528 -

Oh.. well then... good show! :thumbup: :grin:


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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Atheist]
    #6608546 -

SpicyTunaRoll said:
Nothing is good. Its like sleeping, except for forever. We won't even know.

Makes sense?


You dream when you sleep tho. Maybe everyone just turns into wandering souls. When your dead you dont have the power to realize that maybe...? ....


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"...Terrific, im glad we've had this time to discuss..im outro, call me if you wanna blaze one up.."


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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: CosmicFool]
    #6608558 -

CosmicFool said:
I don't remember anything from when I was 1-2 years old but that doesn't mean I wasn't conscious.

I also don't remember most of my dreams but that doesn't mean I don't dream or that my consciousness isn't working when I'm asleep.


Good point.


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Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Shroomism]
    #6608589 -

Shroomism said:
imo something like this disproves the 'worm food' theory. but then again it's just a picture.



Is that the Hubble deep space field?

"Once upon a time, on a little star in a distant corner of the universe, clever little animals invented for themselves proud words, like truth and goodness. But soon enough the little star cooled, and the little animals had to die and with them their proud words. But the universe, never missing a step, drew another breath and moved on, dancing its cosmic dance across endless skies."

~ Friedrich Nietzche

You can't conclusively disprove an afterlife, as we can have no certain knowledge regarding states of existence that are inaccessible to us, but that doesn't mean that it's likely or even possible. We just don't know the rules.

My money's on a return to oblivion.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Atheist]
    #6608600 -

To quote U.G.

Quote:
It is the body which is immortal. It only changes its form after clinical death, remaining within the flow of life in new shapes. The body is not concerned with "the afterlife" or any kind of permanency. It struggles to survive and multiply NOW. The fictitious "beyond", created by thought out of fear, is really the demand for more of the same, in modified form. This demand for repetition of the same thing over and over again is the demand for permanence. Such permanence is foreign to the body. Thought's demand for permanence is choking the body and distorting perception. Thought sees itself as not just the protector of its own continuity, but also of the body's continuity. Both are utterly false.



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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Atheist]
    #6608634 -

SpicyTunaRoll said:
Okay I'll keep this simple and short.
200 years ago we were nothing. We did not exist. Our brains were not created yet.
We weren't really dead, we were just nothing. We did not exist yet.

When we are born and as we develop, we live our lives through all of our senses.
Our senses are used by the brain, everything we see and experience is in the brain.

So before we were born, there was nothing. Then once our brains were created, we have life.
If I was to take a shotgun and blow my brains out,
wouldnt it be EXACTLY the same thing as before I was born?

Its not a bad thing (no afterlife,) its just nothing.

Nothing is good. Its like sleeping, except for forever. We won't even know.

Makes sense?


If I ask you to prove there is no afterlife, you can not give conclusive evidence to support your claim. If you ask me to prove an afterlife, I cannot give any conclusive evidence. Its the equivalent of a christian and a muslim arguing who is right.

Also the buddhist thinks of the essence of a life that transfers into a different body as like a flame that goes from one candle to another. The origin of the flame is the same but yet is a completely different flame that burns with each candle.

I am agnostic but looking at the possibilities is fun.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: special_k]
    #6608656 -

In the absence of any way to investigate the possibilities, the simplest, safest explanation is that there isn't anything but what we can perceive, and possibly not even that.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608742 -

Scientifically:

Occam's Razor(paraphrased) - "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
Going by this scientific principle we should choose the theory that is most simplistic, the theory of nothingness before and after death.


My opinion:

While we should accept the most simply explanation possible it is difficult to do so. We have been given a wonderful gift, whether it be by evolutionary means or a higher entity; we have consciousness. We have the ability to make thoughtful choices and to experience actual happiness and sadness. Personally it just seems like an awful waste to think that our essence ceases to exist after death.

Your argument:

You make your argument based on things you cannot prove. You cannot provide evidence that our essence did not exist before creation or will not continue to exist after we die. Your argument is therefore fundamentally flawed.


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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Legend9123]
    #6608763 -

Um, wrong.

The burden of proof is on those who posit an afterlife.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608772 -

Not really..

You can't prove there's an afterlife.. you can't prove there's not.

IMO though, the evidence as expressed in the cycle of life..universally supports that there is.


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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Shroomism]
    #6608795 -

I don't see how that's universally expressed, or even expressed at all by any facet of nature.

If you're talking about the connections between all things, past present, future, materially, and in terms of cause and effect, that doesn't really imply that there's anything special about human consciousness.

If we are in fact conscious, then what does the evidence of interconnectedness tell you about permanence?

Big bang to the final heat death or re-collapse of the universe, nothing's permanent.



EDIT: All of those relationships just kind of state that consciousness is one interesting pattern expressed in the fleeting bits of matter that make us up. We're nothing, (air, water, other matter), we get put together into a person, we think we wonder, we die, right back to everything else. If consciousness is immortal, it's nothing the human mind can percieve or understand. We're mud that thinks it's alive for a brief period.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

Edited by Kid_Orgo (02/25/07 02:05 PM)

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608803 -

In this case there is no evidence in either direction. Just because I am unable to prove that we do exist after death does not mean that your argument is any more valid. It just means that I could not argue conclusively my view either.


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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608818 -

Kid_Orgo said:
I don't see how that's universally expressed, or even expressed at all by any facet of nature.

If you're talking about the connections between all things, past present, future, materially, and in terms of cause and effect, that doesn't really imply that there's anything special about human consciousness.

If we are in fact conscious, then what does the evidence of interconnectedness tell you about permanence?

Big bang to the final heat death or re-collapse of the universe, nothing's permanent.


Not really on topic, but since you brought up the lifecycle of the universe: Do you believe that there was indeed nothingness before the big bang? Also, where have you found evidence that the universe is collapsing? I have found evidence that in fact the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. Well, not I personally found the data, but here you go. http://www.lbl.gov/supernova/

Finally, would this not be better suited in a forum other than the pub?


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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Legend9123]
    #6608821 -

And in the absence of evidence, we can only accept (to some degree) what we perceive.

I perceive being a meat machine, and hopefully becoming nothing again at some point.

If you perceive some kind of eternal life, more power to you.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #6608825 -

Kid_Orgo said:
If consciousness is immortal, it's nothing the human mind can percieve or understand. We're mud that thinks it's alive for a brief period.


I agree that the immortal part of consciousness is something that is beyond our realm of understanding or perception.


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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Does this completely disprove an afterlife? [Re: Legend9123]
    #6608827 -

Legend9123 said:
Kid_Orgo said:
I don't see how that's universally expressed, or even expressed at all by any facet of nature.

If you're talking about the connections between all things, past present, future, materially, and in terms of cause and effect, that doesn't really imply that there's anything special about human consciousness.

If we are in fact conscious, then what does the evidence of interconnectedness tell you about permanence?

Big bang to the final heat death or re-collapse of the universe, nothing's permanent.


Not really on topic, but since you brought up the lifecycle of the universe: Do you believe that there was indeed nothingness before the big bang? Also, where have you found evidence that the universe is collapsing? I have found evidence that in fact the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. Well, not I personally found the data, but here you go. [url=http://anonym.to/?[url=http://anonym.to/?http://www.lbl.gov/supernova/]http://www.lbl.gov/supernova/[/url]]http://www.lbl.gov/supernova/[/url]

Finally, would this not be better suited in a forum other than the pub?


You got me on that one.

I didn't know which was the accepted theory,

So I said heat death of the universe in the case of an ever expanding universe, and crunch in the other case.

I don't really know what happens if the universe reaches equilibrium (neither expanding or contracting)


As far as before the big bang goes, I mean, it transcends our ability to think about it. "Nothingness" is too much human thought to put on it. A singularity means nothing we know applies.

Personally, I'm thinking that this whole universe is just some kind of cosmic burp, or some kind of cycle, and in any case, we'll probably be extinct long before we figure it out.



EDIT: and as far as being appropriate for the Pub, I have conversations like this in real pubs. I think it's just fine. If shroomism hasn't moved it yet, I'll let a sleeping dog lie.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

Edited by Kid_Orgo (02/25/07 02:11 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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