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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest)
    #5263193 -

"The result was the Foreign Intelligence and Surveillance Act (FISA), which was enacted expressly to ensure that foreign intelligence surveillance would be presented to an impartial judge to verify that there is a sufficient cause for the surveillance. I voted for that law during my first term in Congress and for almost thirty years the system has proven a workable and valued means of according a level of protection for private citizens, while permitting foreign surveillance to continue.

Yet, just one month ago, Americans awoke to the shocking news that in spite of this long settled law, the Executive Branch has been secretly spying on large numbers of Americans for the last four years and eavesdropping on "large volumes of telephone calls, email messages, and other Internet traffic inside the United States." The New York Times reported that the President decided to launch this massive eavesdropping program "without search warrants or any new laws that would permit such domestic intelligence collection."

During the period when this eavesdropping was still secret, the President went out of his way to reassure the American people on more than one occasion that, of course, judicial permission is required for any government spying on American citizens and that, of course, these constitutional safeguards were still in place."

How can anyone accept such bull shit and power grab from the executive branch? It's sickening!

"For example, the President has also declared that he has a heretofore unrecognized inherent power to seize and imprison any American citizen that he alone determines to be a threat to our nation, and that, notwithstanding his American citizenship, the person imprisoned has no right to talk with a lawyer -- even to argue that the President or his appointees have made a mistake and imprisoned the wrong person.

The President claims that he can imprison American citizens indefinitely for the rest of their lives without an arrest warrant, without notifying them about what charges have been filed against them, and without informing their families that they have been imprisoned."

So if someone had a plan to rise against him and a plan to spread protesting of something to the masses, the Administration could detect it because they can unlawfully spy on any American, without a the slightest reason or a warrant. Then they could improsen this person without telling anybody, and just competely keep it hush hush. This is not the America our predescors have fought for.

"Over 100 of these captives have reportedly died while being tortured by Executive Branch interrogators and many more have been broken and humiliated. In the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, investigators who documented the pattern of torture estimated that more than 90 percent of the victims were innocent of any charges."

Against the Geneva Conventions. This should not be tolerated, especially not by such a justice and law supporting people as the Americans.

"The fact that our normal safeguards have thus far failed to contain this unprecedented expansion of executive power is deeply troubling. This failure is due in part to the fact that the Executive Branch has followed a determined strategy of obfuscating, delaying, withholding information, appearing to yield but then refusing to do so and dissembling in order to frustrate the efforts of the legislative and judicial branches to restore our constitutional balance.

For example, after appearing to support legislation sponsored by John McCain to stop the continuation of torture, the President declared in the act of signing the bill that he reserved the right not to comply with it."

These a little excerpts of a speech was given by Al Gore, supported by Democratic and Republican senators who are currently very fearful of president Bush.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (02/04/06 04:33 PM)

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5263338 -

http://www.alternet.org/rights/30905/

read the entire speech for many, many more "real reasons to protest."


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5265556 -

Read the entire speech for many, many reasons to thank your lucky stars that this retard was never President.


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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5266026 -

please do state your reasoning, you sound like an idiot if you support the republicans with no back up. most people not politically informed do support the bush administration i have found.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5266554 -

I am astonishingly well informed and almost all of my nearly 4,000 posts have been in this forum. Further, there are more than a few regular posters in this forum who share my view that Al Gore is a dumb cunt. Not even the NYTimes thinks the NSA issue is as simple as this rabble rousing douche declaims (see today's magazine section). The reference to the Geneva convention is irrelevant as that appplies only to uniformed combatants. I see no actual proof of +100 detainees being killed. In the "notorious" Abu Graib incident prisoners were scared with dogs and forced to wear panties on their heads. Further, those involved have been prosecuted.

Let us also not forget that it was the administration he served in which instituted the Echelon program and that went after it's enemies with the IRS.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1572173/posts

Fuck Al Gore.


Quote:
most people not politically informed do support the bush administration i have found.


This is not what I have found. Most people not politically informed are basted in the endlessly negative attitude of the loudest and most prevalent media bleats, almost all of which parrot the whack job talking points of the internet left to one extent or another. Far more intelligent and responsible people support Bush. Children, unaccustomed to responsibility, don't recognize when someone takes control, as opposed to just complaining, or the value of doing so.


Most people not sufficiently mature enough to wonder about the nattering of endless negativists tend to reflexively and without any reflection swallow whole the nonsense of impending doom. I've heard it for 30+ years and the sky has yet to fall, even once. Closest thing to a fallen sky I've seen is two blown up buildings. Which collapse just might possibly have been prevented by any one of several acts Clinton could have undertaken in his 8 years of handsitting.


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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5266803 -

All you've heard of is two buildings fallen? I've heard of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians dying. I don't give a shit about the soldiers, it was their own damn choice.

It's the negativeness that you hate? The issues don't even matter to you? You're ridiculous. You just want everything to be positive, and here's a wake up call: it's not. But I'll be positive to you, one day all this tyranny that is in the American government may end to the fact that the people are fed up, and they put a stop to it.

"Far more intelligent and responsible people support Bush."
http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm
This is a graph showing the average IQs of the states that voted for either Bush or Kerry. Sort of smashes what you just said.

"Which collapse just might possibly have been prevented by any one of several acts Clinton could have undertaken in his 8 years of handsitting."

Below is my response to you blaiming Clinton for such a thing. This is again taken from the speech.

'The commissioners went on to report that in spite of all the warnings to different parts of the administration, the nation's -- again, I quote -- "domestic agencies never mobilized in response to the threat. They did not have direction and did not have a plan to institute. The borders were not hardened. Transportation systems were not fortified. Electronic surveillance was not targeted against a domestic threat. State and local law authorities were not marshaled to augment the FBI's efforts. The public was not warned," end quote.'

Bush had the evidence on his desk. He didn't do anything with it. He ignored it. However, on september 12th, something else happened. I quote Richard Clarke, the head of counter terrorism, while under oath.

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' I said, 'Mr. President, there's no connection.' He came back at me and said, "Iraq. Saddam. Find out if there's a connection.' We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. They all cleared the report, and we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the national security advisor or deputy. It got bounced and was sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. Do it again.' And I don't think he" -- I'm continuing the quote from Richard Clarke -- "I don't think he, the president, sees memos that he wouldn't like the answer,"

Now what were you saying?


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5266814 -

OH yeah, "and Further, there are more than a few regular posters in this forum who share my view that Al Gore is a dumb cunt."

Oh, good reason to think he is one.  Let's all just believe what the popular belief is and nothing can go wrong.

"Most people not sufficiently mature enough to wonder about the nattering of endless negativists tend to reflexively and without any reflection swallow whole the nonsense of impending doom."

You seem to have swallowed whole the nonsense of impending doom that the Bush administration has fed to you.  They're doing all sorts of illegal things but people like you just look the other way because you think that there is impending doom coming to America, and Bush is doing these things with the only intention of stopping it, and has absolutley zero hidden motives.  So you're not suffeciently mature enough.  You made a good point, but it was against yourself.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/02/03.html#a6996
Here is Bush talking about if he did have to wiretap, he'd do it legally.  Listen closely now, I know you may not be suffeciently mature enough to understand. :ooo:


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (02/05/06 05:06 PM)

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5266938 -

Quote:
"For example, the President has also declared that he has a heretofore unrecognized inherent power to seize and imprison any American citizen that he alone determines to be a threat to our nation, and that, notwithstanding his American citizenship, the person imprisoned has no right to talk with a lawyer -- even to argue that the President or his appointees have made a mistake and imprisoned the wrong person.

The President claims that he can imprison American citizens indefinitely for the rest of their lives without an arrest warrant, without notifying them about what charges have been filed against them, and without informing their families that they have been imprisoned."


The odd thing there, is that it should be the American people who are telling the President what he has the right to do and what not. Aren't they the ones who choose who rules them, how they are going to be ruled, or even if they are going to be ruled at all? Where's the backbone?

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5267132 -

Exactly, the president should have to answer to us. That is, after all, what a democracy is. We have the technology now to have mass votes, and we should take advantage of this. Instead the president and the rest of the government should have the political ideas, and the American people chose whether to act on them.

Instead, the president can kidnap anybody who opposes him. He can lie to America, make his own choices and comfirm those choices himself. Congress did not vote on the NSA program, the American people didn't either. This is no democracy. This is not what our founders fought for. If they were still around, this would not have been accepted, not for a second. And to those who look past these illegal activites...

"Those who would sacrifice liberties for security deserve neither."
-Ben Franklin

and one more
"You still need a court order to moniter someone's calls. Otherwise it is illegal."
-W to a Buffalo reporter


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5270146 -

Responses?


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (02/06/06 04:25 PM)

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5271468 -

Quote:
beatnicknick said:

most people not politically informed do support the bush administration i have found.

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

This is a graph showing the average IQs of the states that voted for either Bush or Kerry.  Sort of smashes what you just said.

Now what were you saying?



  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: do you even read your Links/Source????? The link that you gave admits that this "IQ graph" was a  hoax.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5272373 -

Wow, what can I say, in the first 24 hours over 540,000+ people viewed this page! I originally posted this to a few friends on a forum, using information from a list just like this created after the 2000 election. The list was carried by the St. Petersburg Times and the Economist, amongst others. The IQ data was originally attributed to the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations", though I checked and couldn't find them in the current edition, I had posted saying such at the bottom of the table. The tests and data were said to have been administered via the Raven's APT, and The Test Agency, one of the UK's leading publishers and distributors of psychometric tests.

I have recently been emailed by someone claiming to have seen a retraction many issues later on the behalf of the Economist Magazine. The Economist could not independently verify the IQ data and the retraction can be found here. I have yet to find any retractions from the St. Petersburg Times or other publications. Here you can find a report correlating IQ and income, and their relation to how people voted in the 2004 election. This IQ data is based on SAT/ACT test scores. Here you can see the correlation between percentage of college graduates in a state and whom they voted for in the 2000 election.

I think matching census data to the results of the election reveals some very interesting things. For instance, there is a direct correlation that has been pointed out by the Boston Globe between the divorce rate per state, and who they voted for, as it turns out, the higher the percentage of people voting for Bush, the higher the divorce rate. That is very interesting considering many people voted based on 'values' and 'morality'. I am still scratching my head about that one, I was a 'values voter' as well, though I value honesty, compassion, and human life.

I am glad that so many people are so interested in IQ, statistical correlations, and their relation to politics. I believe such correlations are increasingly interesting as some candidates this year funneled more money into biased advertising and partisan propaganda than has ever been attempted in the history of the world.

^Where?

Reread it again.

"Here you can see the correlation between percentage of college graduates in a state and whom they voted for in the 2000 election."


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5272621 -

The Dem's/Left love to point out how they are smarter than the right. And now you have a bogus Graph to prove it!

(1) Connecticut..................113              Gore
(2) Massachusetts..............111                Gore
(3) New Jersey..................111                Gore
(4) New York....................109              Gore
(5) Rhode Island................107              Gore
(6) Hawaii..........................106              Gore
(7) Maryland......................105              Gore
(8) New Hampshire............105              Bush
(9) Illinois...........................104              Gore
(10) Delaware....................103                Gore
(11) Minnesota...................102              Gore
(12) Vermont......................102              Gore
(13) Washington.................102              Gore
(14) California....................101              Gore
(15) Pennsylvania...............101                Gore
(16) Maine.........................100                Gore
(17) Virginia.......................100                Bush
(18) Wisconsin...................100                Gore
(19) Colorado.....................99                Bush
(20) Iowa............................99                Gore
(21) Michigan......................99                Gore
(22) Nevada........................99                Bush
(23) Ohio............................99                  Bush
(24) Oregon........................99                  Gore
(25) Alaska.........................98                Bush
(26) Florida.........................98                  Bush
(27) Missouri.......................98                Bush
(28) Kansas.........................96                Bush
(29) Nebraska.....................95                Bush
(30) Arizona........................94                Bush
(31) Indiana.........................94                Bush
(32) Tennessee....................94                  Bush
(33) North Carolina.............93                  Bush
(34) West Virginia...............93                Bush
(35) Arkansas.....................92                Bush
(36) Georgia........................92                Bush
(37) Kentucky.....................92                Bush
(38) New Mexico................92              Gore
(39) North Dakota...............92                Bush
(40) Texas...........................92                Bush
(41) Alabama.......................90                Bush
(42) Louisiana......................90              Bush
(43) Montana.......................90                Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90                Bush
(45) South Dakota................90              Bush
(46) South Carolina..............89                Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89                Bush
(48) Idaho............................87                Bush
(49) Utah.............................87                Bush
(50) Mississippi....................85                Bush

WOW!!!  the average IQ in Connecticut is 113. everyone must be a fucking Genius in Connecticut!!!

but in states like Idaho and Utah its average is only 87.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5272777 -

Quote:
I have recently been emailed by someone claiming to have seen a retraction many issues later on the behalf of the Economist Magazine. The Economist could not independently verify the IQ data and the retraction can be found here.


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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: Redstorm]
    #5272818 -

He did not read that part because his wishfulness trumped reality.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5275139 -

as far as I know (not that I know much) the original patriot act did not allow for US citiziens to be detained, just "enemy combatants" did they push a patriot act 2 or something of the sorts since then to make it "legal" ( a rather meaningless word it seems to me when the government have the levels of control that they do ) to detain any US citizen for any reason?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: leery11]
    #5275268 -

Wow, what can I say, in the first 24 hours over 540,000+ people viewed this page! I originally posted this to a few friends on a forum, using information from a list just like this created after the 2000 election. The list was carried by the St. Petersburg Times and the Economist, amongst others. The IQ data was originally attributed to the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations", though I checked and couldn't find them in the current edition, I had posted saying such at the bottom of the table. The tests and data were said to have been administered via the Raven's APT, and The Test Agency, one of the UK's leading publishers and distributors of psychometric tests.

I have recently been emailed by someone claiming to have seen a retraction many issues later on the behalf of the Economist Magazine. The Economist could not independently verify the IQ data and the retraction can be found here. I have yet to find any retractions from the St. Petersburg Times or other publications. Here you can find a report correlating IQ and income, and their relation to how people voted in the 2004 election. This IQ data is based on SAT/ACT test scores. Here you can see the correlation between percentage of college graduates in a state and whom they voted for in the 2000 election.

I think matching census data to the results of the election reveals some very interesting things. For instance, there is a direct correlation that has been pointed out by the Boston Globe between the divorce rate per state, and who they voted for, as it turns out, the higher the percentage of people voting for Bush, the higher the divorce rate. That is very interesting considering many people voted based on 'values' and 'morality'. I am still scratching my head about that one, I was a 'values voter' as well, though I value honesty, compassion, and human life.

I am glad that so many people are so interested in IQ, statistical correlations, and their relation to politics. I believe such correlations are increasingly interesting as some candidates this year funneled more money into biased advertising and partisan propaganda than has ever been attempted in the history of the world.

No where above does it say that so that disclosures your point of me willfully not understanding. At the bottom of the page in fine print, it says that someone CLAIMS to have have seen that this was untrue. Any person trying to discredit this information would. If this information is not competely true then please do respond to the rest of what I had to say instead of what you can argue.

Below is my response to you blaiming Clinton for such a thing. This is again taken from the speech.

'The commissioners went on to report that in spite of all the warnings to different parts of the administration, the nation's -- again, I quote -- "domestic agencies never mobilized in response to the threat. They did not have direction and did not have a plan to institute. The borders were not hardened. Transportation systems were not fortified. Electronic surveillance was not targeted against a domestic threat. State and local law authorities were not marshaled to augment the FBI's efforts. The public was not warned," end quote.'

Bush had the evidence on his desk. He didn't do anything with it. He ignored it. However, on september 12th, something else happened. I quote Richard Clarke, the head of counter terrorism, while under oath.

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' I said, 'Mr. President, there's no connection.' He came back at me and said, "Iraq. Saddam. Find out if there's a connection.' We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. They all cleared the report, and we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the national security advisor or deputy. It got bounced and was sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. Do it again.' And I don't think he" -- I'm continuing the quote from Richard Clarke -- "I don't think he, the president, sees memos that he wouldn't like the answer,"

Now what were you saying?

OH yeah, "and Further, there are more than a few regular posters in this forum who share my view that Al Gore is a dumb cunt."

Oh, good reason to think he is one. Let's all just believe what the popular belief is and nothing can go wrong.

"Most people not sufficiently mature enough to wonder about the nattering of endless negativists tend to reflexively and without any reflection swallow whole the nonsense of impending doom."

You seem to have swallowed whole the nonsense of impending doom that the Bush administration has fed to you. They're doing all sorts of illegal things but people like you just look the other way because you think that there is impending doom coming to America, and Bush is doing these things with the only intention of stopping it, and has absolutley zero hidden motives. So you're not suffeciently mature enough. You made a good point, but it was against yourself.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/02/03.html#a6996
Here is Bush talking about if he did have to wiretap, he'd do it legally. Listen closely now, I know you may not be suffeciently mature enough to understand.

(in response to another post now...)

Exactly, the president should have to answer to us. That is, after all, what a democracy is. We have the technology now to have mass votes, and we should take advantage of this. Instead the president and the rest of the government should have the political ideas, and the American people chose whether to act on them.

Instead, the president can kidnap anybody who opposes him. He can lie to America, make his own choices and comfirm those choices himself. Congress did not vote on the NSA program, the American people didn't either. This is no democracy. This is not what our founders fought for. If they were still around, this would not have been accepted, not for a second. And to those who look past these illegal activites...

"Those who would sacrifice liberties for security deserve neither."
-Ben Franklin

and one more
"You still need a court order to moniter someone's calls. Otherwise it is illegal."
-W to a Buffalo reporter


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5278573 -

That is one of the most impressively insane and incoherent posts I have ever seen.


--------------------

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Re: Some highlights of the senator's NSA speech (the real reasons to protest) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5282159 -

It is a combination of three posts if you would have read the entire thread, this may be why you are so befuddled by my words.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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