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Next Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order |
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 PGF square  Registered: 07/20/00 Posts: 8,642 Loc: Malaysia |
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Tin Foil: Heavy Duty Reynold's
Wear: Shiny Side out http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html 
pets should be protected too, your animals thoughts can destroy you 
the enemy beams are beamed from the various monuments and mountains in state parks 
-------------------- ***The Real Shroomery nigger
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 Phred Fred's son   Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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Ulysees writes:
"some guy with apparently very stong beliefs and lots of time wrote:" I doubt my beliefs are any stronger than the beliefs of the guy I was responding to. And, it's not so much that I have a lot of time as that I am a VERY fast typer. However, I must admit that I do have enough time to read an entire post before responding to it. "Well, I didn't read anything except that quote, but I'd just like to say that I can decide what's "evil" and what isn't even if that evil didn't do anything to me personally." If you had read more than just the quote, you would have noticed that it was part of a response to ElPrimo's objection to Bush calling the attackers evil. Presumably Bush, like you, also has the ability to decide what is evil. pinky -------------------- 
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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Ulysees writes:
"And if, in a time of desperate need, that evil offered me assistance, I wouldn't hesitate in taking it. If for no other reason then for the simple fact that if I take assistance from the evil, I will still be around tomorrow to fight that evil. It's a pretty simple premise really, I'm astonished at how many people don't understand it." I understand it. It certainly is a simple enough premise to grasp. It even has a name, or several names, depending on the moral stance of the one describing it. Some call it "pragmatism", some call it "compromising one's principles", some call it "hypocrisy". "This is a complicated world. It's not "this + that = clear answer"." Not always, agreed. But sometimes it is exactly that simple, especially once "this" and "that" have been clearly identified. "Open your eyes. People are intelligent, things are complicated, there's no other way." Because things are complicated, posts addressing issues that matter cannot always be held to less than a hundred words. Brevity does not always equal clarity. pinky --------------------
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Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!!  Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
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ha ha ha
you just described Youinfoit!!! -------------------- 
America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ulysees Power of Lard  Registered: 10/06/01 Posts: 5,060 |
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Wanker.
-------------------- 
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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Nor does brevity always equal accuracy.
pinky --------------------
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 24 years, 5 months |
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Pinky - my comments
SA has a corrupt regime..... I think you may have agreed here but just can't get over the hump to do so in the open... we support them - you agreed here also but have to bring something up about allies and the gulf war in order to cover your tracks and change the subject... LOL Iran more repressive to women than SA - wow, you actually agreed... well, marginally so.. :-) "Excuse me for interpreting your first post as a diatribe against a corrupt regime (Saudi Arabia) that deserves to be removed from power." Yes? So, i think they don't deserve power.. - what's that got to do with the CIA overthrowing them? There are other means to bring about change, - The rest of this goes on - all based on some straw men you set up and then try to knock down....Always avoiding the direct issue. Like saying I expect 'ruthless dictators' to be swayed by 'world opinion' and that America doesn't have the right to 'instill justice'. Where do you get this stuff? The point I was making is that our policies have contributed to the creation of this nightmare and that the best way to prevent these acts from happening has to involve eliminating the creation of the hatred toward us.. Your entire post is full of this diversion crap..... You may stick your nose up at working with other Countries to solve problems, but I don't. The solutions to the Worlds problems and the United States best interests do not always lie with what's economically best for major campaign contributors.. Corporations like RJ Reynolds. - The Republicans masters. Saudi Arabia a terrorist breeding ground..--- I think you agreed again, but you you seem to want to argue about whether I should have said said 'A' prime breeding ground, instead of 'The' Prime breeding ground.. Puh-leeeeze ...The point was made. Specifics??? let's not get too off the subject but here's a couple ---- the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution. There was another instance where the enitire World voted against us and Israel. Something like 151-2. We had veto power, of course. And BTW - Countries don't have to go thru the UN in order to talk and work together. But the UN can be very helpful - for instance, when the war in Afghanistan is over - the UN could see oversee the building back of that Country. There are infrastructure needs that should be established. Mediators to insure the old 'tribal' stuff doesn't flare up. This Country needs help... how else to give it but thru an organization like the UN? Helloooooooo And BTW, the UN would be a lot more effective if the largest Country in the World didn't try and undermine it every chance it gets. If it actually tried to be a World leader, instead of always representing American business interests.. but let's move on "It is not "wrong" that disease exists." Did someone say that? Who said that?...I didn't say that... is this another straw man? And as for all that about Money I told you you'd bring up the 'break the bank' excuse) and AIDs being caused by loose morals and the rest... well, the Conservative US fights the UN when it trys to deliver Condoms and birth control seminars and other things to help control the situation. You know - there are policies and things that can be done which won't cost all that much. We don't have to totally turn our back on every problem. And after all, it isn't as iff ignoring the situation is cheap.... There is also something called World Leadership. And what's all that about it not being Americas fault? Another straw man. A lot of things aren't my fault but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try and help. Especially as it may well be in my best interests to do so. It may not be my fault that the house is on fire but it is in my best interests to help put it out. OK, I'm tired - most of the rest is just more straw men and we don't connect at all on 'evil'.... I just don't understand the word. Horrible, wrong, bad, reprehensible, terrible, sick, insane, etc... all those words I understand. When people say 'evil' I look around for vampires or something. You say - "That's to be expected. As time goes by, the countries where the populace enjoys the most personal freedom increase their wealth, while the countries with the least personal freedom stagnate or regress. The fact that slave societies don't prosper cannot be blamed on free societies. " Get a clue, fellow ... that was the point of most of this discussion... That the United States supports and keeps in power whatever Dictator or group that suits our economic and military objectives. Regardless of how others may suffer because of it. And that a lot of people hate us for doing this. In fact, a recent poll of world leaders found that the majority believed US policy has significantly contributed to the creation of this situation. Capice? Edited by ElPrimo (12/29/01 02:12 AM)
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MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
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>> the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution.
I know that this is off the major subject, but you're absolutely crazy. Go reread that treaty, it's a piece of trash not worthy of being used as toilet tissue. It basicly reassures that more pollution will happen and the the world economy will crumble. Why on earth would you, someone that wants to protect the environment support something that will in no way shape or form do that? What Koyoto will do is send all manufacturing jobs to contries with little or no pollution control where they can pay the workers in chicken feed since they are exempt under the treaty. In other words what's going to happen is that there will be no more well paying manufacturing jobs in developed nations, so the lower classes will have no oppurtunity for upwards mobility. And any company that wants to keep its cost as low as possible will not try to put any pollution prevention in place if the government doesn't force it to, which is what will happen if the jobs go to third world countries. It's crap. Of course all the third world countries are going to support it, they don't have to do anything. BTW Australia has dropped out of Koyoto too. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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ElPrimo writes:
"SA has a corrupt regime..... I think you may have agreed here but just can't get over the hump to do so in the open..." I agreed that Saudi Arabia's ruling regime is REPRESSIVE. Not everyone does, but I certainly do. They are not "corrupt", though. There is no need for them to be corrupt, since they already hold absolute political power and can do whatever they want within the existing political framework. A "corrupt" politician is one who can be bribed to subvert the existing political process, or one who commits crimes. The repression the Saudis carry out is sanctioned by their political system (Absolute Monarchy) already, and their actions are therefore not considered by them to be criminal, since they (the Royal House of Saud) are by definition above the law. "we support them - you agreed here also but have to bring something up about allies and the gulf war in order to cover your tracks and change the subject..." Hmmm... reviewing the wording of my reply I can see that it does imply that I agree. You were perfectly correct to interpret it that way. I apologize. I fucked up. I did not mean to say that America supports the Saudi regime. I'm sorry to have not been more precise. In actual fact, I do NOT agree. Exactly how does America "support" the Saudi regime? Please be specific. America takes no actions whatsoever to keep the House of Saud in power. The Saudi government protects ITSELF from internal dissent through the use of its own "internal security" police force. They don't need America's (or anyone's) help to stay in control of Saudi Arabia. "There are other means to bring about change, - The rest of this goes on - all based on some straw men youe set up and then try to knock down.... Like saying I expect 'ruthless dictators' to be swayed by 'world opinion' and that America doesn't have the right to 'instill justice'. Where do you get this stuff? Your entire post is full of this crap..... " There may be other means to bring about change, but you have yet to list a single one. So far, the ONLY suggestions you have made to eliminating the repression of Saudi residents are: 1) "I think we should work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter." 2) "What the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society." 3) "It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution. It's called leadership. Like with the Kyoto treaty." No specifics. Just vague generalizations... "work within the World guidelines", "work to instill more justice", "Work with our neighbors", "work toward resolution". Work HOW? Please outline one SPECIFIC action that America can take to decrease the repression of Saudi women. Your phrases are identical to those any politician trying to get re-elected spouts in press conferences... "Once elected I will take steps to correct this or that shameful situation..." WHAT steps? "You may stick your nose up at working with other Countries to solve problems, but I don't." I don't reject the usefulness of "working with other countries to solve problems", but I have a firm enough grasp of reality to realize that there are some countries (like Saudi Arabia) for whom conferences, UN condemnations and diplomatic reprimands mean literally nothing. The Saudis honestly don't even think they HAVE a problem. To them, the way they treat their subjects is the way that subjects SHOULD be treated. "Working with other countries" is only possible if those countries AGREE to work with you. "Saudi Arabia a terrorist breeding ground..--- I think you agreed again, but you you seem to want to argue about whether I should have said said 'A' prime breeding ground, instead of 'The' Prime breeding ground.. Puh-leeeeze" Excuse me for insisting on clarity. You know as well as I do that changing a single word in a sentence (just as I mistakenly implied that I agreed with you on the "support" issue) can alter its meaning radically. The topic being discussed here is an important one. It's not as if we are trying to decide if a Whopper is better than a Big Mac. If what you write is not what you mean to say, don't object to people interpreting it as it is written, correct the mistaken impression instead. I still disagree that "Saudi Arabia is THE prime breeding ground for terrorists". As it is written, the sentence implies that Saudi Arabia produces more terrorists than any other country. Anyone conversant with the English language would interpret it as I did. "Specifics??? let's not get too off the subject but here's a couple ---- the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution." You used this same red herring earlier. The Kyoto Treaty has nothing to do with the repression of internal dissent, hence is completely irrelevant to the topic that YOU introduced... America's alleged "support" of a "corrupt" regime. "And BTW - Countries don't have to go thru the UN in order to talk and work together." Of course they don't. But they DO have to agree to seriously address the issue being talked about. The Saudis won't. To them, the way they treat their women (as a single specific example) is a non-issue. They don't understand what all the fuss is about, and dismiss out of hand any suggestions that they may want to rethink their position. This intransigence on their part has been reported many times, by the way, by women's groups and human rights organizations. I am not making this up. The Saudi government quite simply refuses to listen, even to America. "And the UN would be a lot more effective if the largest Country in the World didn't try and undermine it every chance it gets." America is neither the largest country in the world nor the most populous. And America HARDLY tries to undermine the UN "every chance it gets". You would have a better chance of convincing the readers of this thread of the validity of your opinions if you would get your facts straight and avoid exaggeration. "And as for all that about Money and AIDs and the rest... well, the Conservative US fights the UN when it trys to deliver Condoms and birth control seminars and other things to help control the situation." Not so. The American government does not try to prevent the UN from providing condoms and birth control seminars to Africans. Where did you get this idea? Please provide a single credible source to support this allegation. Some individual members of Congress DO however feel that American taxpayers should not be charged an unlimited amount of money to provide these services to other countries. "We don't have to totally turn our back on every problem." America hardly turns its back on every problem. America spends more money on AIDS research than any other country. America provides more money in foreign aid than the rest of the world combined. "And what's all that about it not being Americas fault? Another straw man. A lot of things aren't my fault but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try and help." But America DOES help those countries who are in a bind through no fault of America's. No other country in the world does as much as America does to help others. Foreign aid in the form of cash. Disaster relief in the form of food and medical supplies. Military support to allies threatened with invasion. Development loans (many of which are never repaid) to improve agriculture, create infrastructure, improve education, develop natural resources, jumpstart essential industries. Supervision of free elections.... I'm sure there are other actions America takes that I am missing here. "we don't connect at all on 'evil'.... I just don't understand the word. Horrible, wrong, bad, reprehensible, terrible, sick, insane, etc... all those words I understand. When people say 'evil' I look around for vampires or something." You don't understand the definition of "evil"? Open any dictionary. Let's look at the Oxford Dictionary of Current English: evil - morally bad, wicked: harmful, tending to harm. Hmmm... nothing about vampires or other supernatural entities in THAT definition. "... that was the point of most of this discussion... That the United States supports and keeps in power whatever Dictator or group that suits our economic and military objectives." There is an enormous difference between "supporting and keeping in power" a particular government and refraining from actively overthrowing it. I repeat, the USA takes not a single action to further the continuance of the House of Saud. Zip. Bupkes. Nada. The Saudi royal family doesn't NEED the USA to take any action to keep them in power. pinky --------------------
Edited by pinksharkmark (12/29/01 04:38 AM)
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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MokshaMan writes:
"I know that this is off the major subject, but you're absolutely crazy. Go reread that treaty, it's a piece of trash not worthy of being used as toilet tissue. It basicly reassures that more pollution will happen and the the world economy will crumble." You are absolutely correct. There was an excellent series of thoughtful, well-researched articles in the Ottawa Citizen a few weeks ago examining Canada's inability to fulfill the obligations of this treaty. Although not all of the other developed nations have admitted it yet, they are all in the same bind as Canada. Using the technology available today, or technology likely to be available within the next decade or two, the Kyoto Treaty is pure fantasy. The way the Kyoto Treaty is written, it is impossible for ANY developed nation, particularly a nation where there are sub-freezing temperatures for part of the year, to come anywhere close to meeting the terms of the treaty without commiting to an enormous investment in nuclear power. Even then, it would be impossible to get sufficient power plants constructed in time to meet the deadlines specified in the treaty. "...what's going to happen is that there will be no more well paying manufacturing jobs in developed nations, so the lower classes will have no oppurtunity for upwards mobility." Agreed. Not only that, but the flight of manufacturing companies and the attendant loss of jobs will mean even less tax revenue with which to subsidize a crash nuclear program. Nuke plants ain't cheap. "Of course all the third world countries are going to support it, they don't have to do anything." Yep. "BTW Australia has dropped out of Koyoto too. " They won't be the last to do so. You can bet your life's savings on that. And those developed nations who don't officially drop out won't be able to meet the guidelines anyway. Canada certainly won't. pinky --------------------
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ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 24 years, 5 months |
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A couple of points, Pinky.
First, While I generally try and avoid any wording that could be termed imprecise, I find your tactic of nitpicking to be little more than avoiding the subject... As an example, when I reference that the UN would be more effective is the US didn't constantly try and undermine it, you choose to jump on the fact that I said the 'Largest Country'. Obviouly the US is not the largest Country.. I should have said the most Powerful Country. Or the Country with the Largest economy. However, the fact that we are very large and powerful and that we undermine the UN is what the post was about... It was in refernece to your stating that the UN hadn't done much... But it seems to be easier for you to nitpick wording than address the point at hand.. SA is corrupt... Should I say ' Morally Corrupt'? Does that make you feel better? One of the definitions of corrupt is taking bribes... This is a standard practice in SA. (another definition is evil) My point about the word evil is that people use it to stop discussion and that both sides use it about the other... It is used to de-humanize the opponent and therefore dismiss any attempt to try and understand his motivations... I wuill concede that I am not sure what the per capita income is of the average SA citizen. Or what they may or not possess in the way of health care, etc. It may well be that they are better off than most and are just surrounded by millions who are poor, etc. The fact is, the terrorists weren't poor trod upon individuals.. most were educated and capable. I don't want to argue about the Kyoto treaty... That's not for here. Let me just say that no treaty is perfect and we must start somewhere. Canada competes with the US... If the US doesn't follow the treaty on items such as fishing and Ocean management, hoiw can other Countries do so? This is an example of how the US is able to dominate and set World policy. Something we usually only do when our corporate business intersts are at stake... items like democracy, freedoms, human suffering... these all take a back seat... Finally let me remind you of all the Conservative bellyaching about America trying to help out in the European theatre... what with Bosnia and Serbia.. Didn't we send troops? Didn't we work with the UN? Isn't that situation better now than before? AND didn't most conservatives harass Clinton about it? Always demanding an 'EXIT STRATEGY', etc. Pray tell where is the US Exit Strategy for Afghanistan?? I see we are now sending in the 101st Airborne... My discussions here are that we would do well to work with the UN and other Countries to help resolve the conflicts in the Middle east and elsewhere. To think that the solution is to just exercise military might is nearsighted and while it will hopefully disrupt the Al Quaida organization, it will do little to stop the zealot hatred toward us.. As far as your 'specifics'... you just want something to throw stones at... nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try. It is always easier to point out why things won't work or pick at people who question the way things are... And I believe Al Gore would have done as well or better than GW. This excercise isn't over yet... and right now everyone is expected to wave a flag. But time will tell. What is going to be done about Iraq???? ... Do you propose we invade there as well??
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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ElPrimo writes:
"...the fact that we are very large and powerful and that we undermine the UN is what the post was about... It was in refernece to your stating that the UN hadn't done much... " I merely pointed out (correctly) that all the United Nations CAN do in a situation like this is to issue condemnations, which are then ignored by the offending party. So far the UN hasn't even done that. "But it seems to be easier for you to nitpick wording than address the point at hand.. " You said that the US "undermines" (exactly HOW does the US do this, by the way?) the UN "every chance it gets". I replied that this was an exaggeration. I haven't changed my mind. "One of the definitions of corrupt is taking bribes... This is a standard practice in SA." It is not standard practice by the ruling House of Saud. They don't take bribes. They don't NEED to take bribes because they are richer than Croesus. "I wuill concede that I am not sure what the per capita income is of the average SA citizen. Or what they may or not possess in the way of health care, etc. It may well be that they are better off than most and are just surrounded by millions who are poor, etc." If you had referred to those surrounding millions rather than to Saudi citizens my response would have been different. "I don't want to argue about the Kyoto treaty... That's not for here." Agreed. "... what with Bosnia and Serbia.. Didn't we send troops? Didn't we work with the UN?" America did in fact "work with the UN" in that situation. But the example you cite has no relevance to your beef with Saudi repression, since the UN approach (if any) to ending repression in Saudi Arabia does not involve sending in troops. To my knowledge, the UN has yet to even bother to file a single protest against the treatment of Saudi citizens by its government. "My discussions here are that we would do well to work with the UN and other Countries to help resolve the conflicts in the Middle east and elsewhere." But America HAS done just that. Remember Camp David? Remember the support given to Nasser by America? Kissinger's seemingly endless "shuttle diplomacy" efforts? The encouragement given to Jordan's King Hussein? The sessions with Arafat? Did I just dream all these things or did they really take place? And I repeat yet again... resolve HOW? Words don't work. There has been a wealth of words, decades of discussion, and rivers of resolutions expended on the Middle East and that part of the world is STILL fucked. "...the word evil... is used to de-humanize the opponent and therefore dismiss any attempt to try and understand his motivations... " The motivations of some people are beyond the understanding of rational humans. What motivated Ted Bundy? Besides, in the case of those who choose violence as their preferred method of human interaction, motive is of secondary concern at best. What MATTERS is the ACT. This is why it is not necessary to know the motive of a murderer in order to convict him of murder in any court of law in any country in the world. "As far as your 'specifics'... you just want something to throw stones at... nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try." -- -- -- "I find your tactic of nitpicking to be little more than avoiding the subject..." I think the other readers of these posts can decide exactly who is avoiding the subject here. I have answered every one of your questions fully, and am quite prepared to have you throw stones at me. I have invariably found that when someone says "nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try", the real meaning is "I can't refute your point but I won't admit it." Besides, what makes you think I only want to throw stones at your solutions? Offer me a solution and see. I freely admit that I am too stupid to come up with a solution to the Saudi government's repression of its populace that involves anything less than the overthrow of the House of Saud. So far you haven't offered a single VIABLE alternative to my suggestion... just ranted that America's course of action is wrong and that somehow a UN resolution might one day make a gang of chauvinist authoritarian misogynists "see the light" and reform their ways. As I said before, I find your faith in the essential goodness of brutal thugs to be quite touching. "What is going to be done about Iraq???? ... Do you propose we invade there as well??" That question has nothing to do with the way Saudi Arabia treats its citizens, but I'll answer it anyway. I see no reason today to invade Iraq. pinky --------------------
Edited by pinksharkmark (01/01/02 01:32 AM)
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