Home | Community | Message Board


Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,007
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 43 minutes
Activists find tracking systems on their cars
    #1725451 - 07/17/03 06:38 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Story


Ever get the sneaking suspicion you are being watched? Maybe you should look under your bumper. On Sunday, July 6, three Boulder residents discovered sophisticated Global Positioning System (GPS) devices attached to the bottom of their cars, apparently used by someone to track the whereabouts of their vehicles.

The devices contained no immediate clues as to who planted them or who used them to collect information, leaving the residents with troubling questions: Who would be willing to spend the time and energy to track them? And are we all being watched far more carefully than we might want to imagine?

Sunday morning surprise

New York native Mike Nicosia is passionate about protecting animals. He?s been this way ever since he learned of their plight six years ago.

"I was just appalled to see the way animals are treated for everything from fur farms to slaughter houses," he says. "I wanted to do more to help animals. Because animals don?t have a voice, I wanted to be a voice for them."

Nicosia became a vegan, participated in animal-rights protests and launched a Long Island chapter of The Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade.

"We have a no-nonsense approach to destroying the fur trade," says Nicosia of the organization. "That means protests, civil disobedience and outreach, as well as supporting the ALF."

ALF stands for the Animal Liberation Front, a controversial organization that combats animal abuse by releasing animals from testing laboratories and destroying the property of those they deem to be exploiting animals.

While Nicosia says he had no direct connections with the ALF, he publicly supported the organization?s tactics. That was when the surveillance began.

Nicosia says wiretaps were installed on his phone. He was photographed at protests. Plainclothes officers would follow him to his car. He also received death threats from people within the fur industry. One prominent fur community member was eventually issued a restraining order after repeatedly threatening Nicosia?s life.

Nicosia came to Boulder two and a half years ago to study psychology at Naropa University. Since arriving here, Nicosia has started a new student group: the Student Organization for Animal Rights. Nicosia says the group?s main focus is education about the benefits of a vegan lifestyle, not civil disobedience.

Nicosia stresses he still has no association with ALF and no ties to members of the organization, with the exception of his roommate?Rod Coronado.

Rod Coronado is well known in activist circles. A member of the Earth First! movement and former media spokesperson for the ALF, he has been a vigilant supporter of the animal rights and environmental movements for 20 years.

"I have always been an outspoken critic of America?s environmental policy and an open defender of actions to defend wilderness and the animals," says Coronado.

In 1994, Coronado was arrested for an arson attack at Michigan State University?s mink research facilities. After serving four years in prison and three years in suspended release, Coronado began traveling around the country talking about his previous actions and his political beliefs.

Over the past six months, Coronado and other activists have been involved in a campaign against the logging in northwest California, protesting in front of the homes of executives of the Houston-based Maxxam Corporation, which owns the lumber company responsible for the logging.

"We don?t destroy property; we don?t break the law in any way. We are just exercising our free speech rights," says Coronado. "Nevertheless, these people are very much affected, and it?s enough that they are very much aware of why we are there. We are holding them accountable for what they have been profiting from for years."

Federal surveillance is a routine part of Coronado?s life, and he says officials have been increasingly interested in his activities since he began visiting the homes of Maxxam executives. That doesn?t mean he wasn?t surprised on Sunday morning, July 6, when he was attaching a trailer hitch to his car and noticed something underneath his vehicle that wasn?t supposed to be there.

Nicosia says he was inside asleep that morning when Coronado discovered the large black devices attached behind the rear bumpers of his and his girlfriend?s cars on the driver?s side. When Nicosia woke up, Coronado showed him the strange tangles of wires and electronics. Nicosia immediately became curious if such a device had also been planted on his car.

It took just a moment to discover the answer.

Eyes in the sky

A GPS device is essentially a super-charged version of the standard compass; instead of just telling its user which way is north, a GPS device will determine its exact location on earth.

A GPS system operates by interacting with satellites orbiting the earth containing highly accurate atomic clocks. When activated, the GPS device will "look" at four of the satellites simultaneously. By comparing the different times it reads on each of the atomic clocks, the GPS device will calculate its distance from each satellite. Using this information, the GPS device can determine not only its location, but also the exact time it was at that location. Sensitive GPS devices can be accurate down to a nanosecond and within 15 to 20 meters.

While Nicosia and Coronado are not GPS experts, they immediately assumed the devices found on their cars and Coronado?s girlfriend?s car were GPS systems, especially since one component was labeled GPS Antenna.

When Nicosia brought his device to GPS Solutions, a Boulder-based software developer of high-accuracy GPS technology, chief engineer Jim Johnson confirmed their suspicion.

"This is definitely a GPS board," says Johnson, referring to one of the components of the device.

According to Johnson, the devices in question contain four main components: a battery pack containing four lithium D cell batteries, a GPS antenna, a cellular antenna and a main component box. The component box contains a GPS receiver, a computer chip and a cellular modem. All the components were wired together and attached by powerful magnets to the cars? undersides.

When attached to the car, the GPS antenna likely points downwards towards the ground, to pick up signals from GPS satellites that bounce off the road. This information is sent to the GPS receiver, which determines its location at least within 100 meters, says Johnson. This information can then be transmitted from the car to an outside source using the modem and cellular antenna, just like a normal cell phone call. The computer chip can be programmed to determine when the information is transmitted. It?s possible the information was sent out on a set schedule, or if the vehicles entered or left a specified area.

But where was the GPS information sent?

The answer is not readily available. One thing is for sure, however: The devices are not cheap.

"They are putting some money into it," says Johnson about the systems, which he estimates could cost about $2,000 each.

Coronado says he is going to auction his device on eBay and donate the proceeds to the animal-rights organization Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty.

Another enigma is who built these devices, which Johnson says were probably custom made. While the GPS antennas are labeled with serial numbers and the manufacturer name Trimble, one of the leading developers of GPS technology, other components in the device are not made by Trimble, says Johnson. Most of the components contain no labels at all, making them untraceable. When Trimble was contacted and asked if the antennas? sales histories could be tracked using their serial numbers, the company spokesperson did not respond before press time.

Nicosia and Coronado believe the devices were likely placed on their cars while they were in Boulder during this past May, since this was the only period of time and place the cars were all at the same location. Coronado believes he is the main reason the devices were planted on their cars, because of his controversial history. He says the GPS device was likely planted on his girlfriend?s car because he often uses it.

Nicosia, who was both shocked and a little flattered his car was bugged, also believes he was targeted because he lives with Coronado.

"I think it?s just the ?guilt by association.? Me calling (Coronado), hanging out with him has made me a target," says Nicosia.

But the true explanation is probably not so simple. The car belonging to Nicosia?s and Coronado?s other roommate?who is not involved in animal rights?was not bugged. Whoever planted the devices had done some homework.

Who?s watching?

While he has no definitive proof, Coronado has several theories as to who was tracking the vehicles. The most obvious suspect, he says, is the FBI.

"I believe it was the federal authorities," says Coronado. "I think that the technology is beyond that of the private sector. The days of an FBI parked in a dark sedan in front of our house are over."

Coronado is no stranger to the FBI. Agents often show up at animal rights and environmental demonstrations he takes part in, says Coronado. Last year the FBI?s top domestic terrorism official told a congressional hearing that ALF was one of the most active domestic terrorist organizations, and that at least 26 FBI field offices around the country were dealing with ALF activities.

Coronado and many of his compatriots would not put it past the FBI to tamper with their belongings, even if it endangered activists in the process. In 1990, Earth First! Activist Judi Bari was nearly killed when a bomb equipped with a motion detector exploded underneath her seat. She was on her way to meet Coronado. While local FBI agents claimed that the bomb belonged to Bari, skeptics pointed out that the same FBI agents had recently used a strikingly similar bomb scenario in a "bomb schools" it had taught to area police officers. Last year a federal jury ruled that FBI agents and police officers framed Bari and a coworker for the attack that nearly killed them.

Another clue that might link the GPS systems to the FBI are three hand-written numbers discovered inside of the devices? battery packs, a different number for each device. The numbers?141, 142 and 447?could be used for tracking purposes, says Coronado, and could suggest that the devices might be part of a much larger fleet of similar systems?a fleet that could only belong to a major organization.

FBI spokesperson Ann Atanasio could not explicitly say whether or not the FBI had a role in the matter.

"I cannot confirm or deny the existence of an investigation," says Atanasio, who also could not comment on FBI tracking techniques or its position on the ALF.

Coronado is not surprised that the FBI will not talk about that subject.

"That?s the FBI standard policy." he says. "They are not going to say, ?Oh yeah, we?re the FBI. We do stuff like that.?" Coronado believes FBI?s refusal to investigate the matter only further suggests they are involved.

But Coronado is not certain the FBI was responsible, especially since the devices were far from inconspicuous.

"I kind of am surprised that the FBI would be stupid enough to think we would not find these things on our cars," he says.

Another suspect could be the Maxxam Corporation, which Coronado and his compatriots have been protesting. After all, says Coronado, since the company had enough money to recently sponsor a prominent ad campaign labeling Coronado an eco-terrorist, they should have enough money to electronically track Coronado?s whereabouts.

When contacted, Maxxam spokesperson Josh Reiss declined to respond to the allegations.

A third possibility, says Coronado, is the Center for Consumer Freedom, a nonprofit coalition sponsored by restaurants, food companies and tobacco corporations that oppose "anti-consumer activists." The Center has been actively discouraging venues around the country from sponsoring Coronado?s seminars, calling him a domestic terrorist.

Mike Burita, communications director for Center for Consumer Freedom, says the organization does not partake in cloak and dagger techniques.

"The suggestion we put a GPS (device) on Rod Coronado?s car is ridiculous," he says. "We are not in the business of covert surveillance."

Could the activists have planted the devices themselves for media attention?

Nicosia says the idea is outrageous.

"It?s not like I?making minimum wage, struggling just to get by in Boulder?am going to throw together six or seven thousand dollars and fabricate a story," he says.

Coronado agrees.

"If I had a couple thousand bucks in my pocket, I?m going to use it to generate media attention by putting pressure on (lumber companies), not by planting something on my car," says Coronado. "Anybody who knows me knows that repression is not something I joke around about. I spent four years of my life in jail because of this shit. The last thing I am going to do is play with that with my friend?s life, the people I most love and trust."

So who is responsible for the GPS devices? In reality, it could be anybody who has several thousand dollars and knows how to use the Internet.

A quick Internet Google search using the words "GPS car tracking" produces thousands of websites selling these types of devices. A Trimble GPS magnetic-mount antenna similar to the ones found by Coronado and Nicosia was being sold this week on eBay with a starting price of $25.95.

"I could buy one of these things today," says GPS Solutions engineer Johnson about the tracking device. "In this town, probably 25 percent of people could easily do it."

A world without privacy

"GPS is used for an amazingly large number of things, much more than it was originally (designed) for," says Johnson.

GPS technology was first unveiled in 1982 as a military tool. Back then a GPS receiver cost about $200,000 and weighed 150 pounds. There were only six GPS satellites, meaning that there was only a small window of time each day that there were enough satellites in range for an accurate GPS reading.

Today GPS receivers weigh only a few ounces?small enough to be installed inside cell phones?and are surprisingly inexpensive. Johnson says one of the cheapest components in the GPS devices found in Boulder is the receiver. Now there are 24 satellites in the sky dedicated to GPS tracking. And GPS systems are popping up everywhere

"It can be used for anything you can think of to track moving objects," says Johnson. Companies and organizations like GPS Solutions use the technology to monitor the motion of the earth?s crust and atmospheric pressure and temperature, among other things. GPS systems are used to locate vehicles ranging from police cars to taxis to forklifts in factories. One Boulder-based company, Intuicom, has installed GPS devices on Boulder buses and tracks their location around the city on their website: http://www.intuicom.com/www/solutions/avl_demo/demo_frame.htm. And the potential for saving human lives is endless, from locating lost hikers to predicting tsunamis.

But along with its potential benefits, the rise of GPS also means new questions about privacy and surveillance in society.

"Certainly there are ethical issues," says Johnson about GPS technology. "The downside of GPS is it is a military weapon, and there are privacy issues down the line."

For example, says Johnson, what if Nicosia had driven his car to Denver International Airport without knowing about the device behind his bumper? And what if airport security had noticed the suspicious electronics and wires?

But Johnson says the problem lies not with the technology, but with how it is used.

"This is not the only way you can be tracked," says Johnson. "The problem isn?t so much that there is GPS. The problem is that there are people that want to stretch the limits of your basic freedoms, whether they do it by staking you out and following you or do it with a piece of equipment. That issue is always there."

Betty Ball, a Boulder activist who works at the locally based Rocky Mountain Peace and Justice Center, agrees that technologies like GPS can be beneficial. But the discovery of these devices on local residents? cars suggest a sinister concept to Ball?that the U.S. government?s long-term policy of keeping tabs on controversial groups has reached a new technological horizon. And Ball isn?t sure anyone will be safe.

"Who knows how widespread it is," she says. "These (GPS devices) we know about were found by pretty well-known activists who have quite a history of activism and resistance. But you never really know what (the authorities) are going to go after and who they really consider a key person they need to keep track of and follow."

Ball believes this type of high-tech surveillance has become common thanks to the same national climate of fear and oppression that led to the passage of the Patriot Act, the post-Sept. 11 federal legislation which gave authorities sweeping new powers to combat terrorism?even at the expense of citizens? rights, some critics say.

"My impression is that our government knows they are going too far," says Ball. "They are implementing laws and policies going against the will of the people to the degree they are going to get massive resistance, and that is why they came up with the Patriot Act, and this means of GPS surveillance, and surveillance of our computers and websites and e-mail and all that kind of stuff. It?s all part and parcel of the same thing, that the government knows they are going to encounter massive resistance, so they are taking every opportunity right now to create the controls to control us."

The only option, says Ball, is to fight tooth and nail to protect U.S. civil liberties from being eroded by new legislation and new technologies.

"(The government) is trying to scare us?they are using these intimidation tactics to scare people. And we can?t afford to let that happen," says Ball. "The more people that get involved, the more people who resist this kind of thing, the better off we are going to be."

If someone was trying to scare Nicosia into submission, they were not successful. While Nicosia is still doesn?t like the idea of some shadowy individual monitoring him, it has not caused Nicosia to curtail his involvement in the animal-rights movement.

"It?s made me more determined and vigilant," he says. "I?m going to go out there and work even harder for the animals now."





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineseemslikeasymbol
what...
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 27
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1726711 - 07/18/03 02:16 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

sounds like government stuff. they seem to think they can do whatever they want nowadays...


--------------------
i didnt mean that...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,737
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1727067 - 07/18/03 07:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Tracking the whereabouts of a known arsonist can't be entirely wrong.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1727167 - 07/18/03 09:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ALF stands for the Animal Liberation Front, a controversial organization that combats animal abuse by releasing animals from testing laboratories and destroying the property of those they deem to be exploiting animals.




They sound like judge, jury and executioner. More wackos.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1727202 - 07/18/03 10:34 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah sort of like the way Bush and Blair dealt with Iraq. At least the ALF have proof of that which they assert.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: GazzBut]
    #1727207 - 07/18/03 10:40 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

So you're defending them smashing up buildings and comitting arson? it's good to know where you limeys stand on such social issues. This is why protestors aren't taken seriously. Good job.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1727260 - 07/18/03 11:20 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

wow! so I make a comment and you extrapolate it to all of us "limeys". Cool!

I think I am god therefore all limeys also think I am god and worship me on a wednesday morning before tiffin and a session of pushing pins into our personalised George Bush Voodoo dolls.

and where did I say I defended their actions I just said they had definite proof of the things they protest against. Unlike Bush and Blair.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: GazzBut]
    #1727261 - 07/18/03 11:20 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Jinda creepy that the federal jury ruled that FBI agents bombed the car of an American citizen. Strange that didn't make press anywhere else.

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Yeah sort of like the way Bush and Blair dealt with Iraq. At least the ALF have proof of that which they assert.



An unjust war is one horrible thing. Destruction of private property is completely different. That's a bad analogy.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1727265 - 07/18/03 11:23 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Obviously an unjust war is far,far worse than the destruction of private property.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: GazzBut]
    #1727276 - 07/18/03 11:28 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I won't make the judgment of worse or better. They're different animals and IMO the analogy didn't make much sense.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1727280 - 07/18/03 11:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The thing about an analogy is they dont have to be exactly the same.

Inny said: They sound like judge, jury and executioner. More wackos.

Did the US and UK govts act as judge, jury and axecutioner in the case of Iraq?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,737
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: GazzBut]
    #1727305 - 07/18/03 11:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Did the US and UK govts act as judge, jury and axecutioner in the case of Iraq?




I think the US and UK governments should also be tracked with GPS devices, just like the ALF arsonists.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,281
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1727371 - 07/18/03 12:49 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

In 1994, Coronado was arrested for an arson attack at Michigan State University?s mink research facilities.




That makes him an 'activist'? What would you call someone who burns down abortion clinics? Orwell is chuckling in his grave.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1727378 - 07/18/03 12:53 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Jinda creepy that the federal jury ruled that FBI agents bombed the car of an American citizen. Strange that didn't make press anywhere else.

That was the case of Judy Barry and Daryl Cherny who were Earth First! organizers (non-violent direct action). About ten years ago the car that they were driving in exploded. The FBI was on the spot immediately - even before local police and ambulance. The spooks declared that Barry and Cherny were transporting an explosive for eco-terrorist acts. Case closed.

After re-examination of the case, it was discovered that the FBI planted the bomb in their car in an assassination/propaganda attempt.

www.earthfirst.org



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,007
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 43 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: wingnutx]
    #1727379 - 07/18/03 12:55 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't condone the destruction of private property as a means of protest. And just because Bush led us to an unjust war doesn't justify the actions of ALF.

It just alarmed me that activists anywhere at any time were being tracked without their knowledge. It makes me wonder where this could lead.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,281
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: iglou]
    #1727380 - 07/18/03 12:56 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What happened to the FBI agents involved? They need some jail time, just like the ALF arsonists.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: wingnutx]
    #1727383 - 07/18/03 12:58 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

from merriam-webster dictionary:

Main Entry: ac?tiv?ism
Pronunciation: 'ak-ti-"vi-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1915
: a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue

That makes him an 'activist'?

With that definition and with the word activist meaning someone who follows a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action, then yes, he is an activist.

What would you call someone who burns down abortion clinics?

an anti-abortion activist who resorts to extreme measures.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: wingnutx]
    #1727384 - 07/18/03 01:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

off the hook, of course.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: iglou]
    #1727402 - 07/18/03 01:11 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The basic idea as far as animal liberation goes is to remove/release the animals from the situation and, sometimes, to destroy equipment used in conjunction with the situation, e.g., research lab. No person is to be injured in doing so, though. Again, that's the basic idea, but different groups or cells might decide more extreme measures are warranted depending upon the particular situation. Burning down an entire building would be intended to have a notable financial impact as well, and to intimidate others doing similiar things.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,737
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1727441 - 07/18/03 01:27 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It just alarmed me that activists anywhere at any time were being tracked without their knowledge. It makes me wonder where this could lead.




Yeah, you have a point there. This type of surveillance should be done in the open, not like a cloak-and-dagger game. By the way, wasn't "No more secrets!" one of Leary's slogans?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,007
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 43 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1728175 - 07/18/03 06:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm. Never heard Leary say "no more secrets" I don't think.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1728189 - 07/18/03 06:21 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

hm.. interesting

the activists were going about their business in a very ineffective way, but at the same time the FBI exercized police-state control. Nobody is right if everybody is wrong..

its amusing how some of us think it's right to track people for doing something ( not wrong or anything, just amusing )

. if I kill someone, am I forever a murderer, and so deserving of all opinions and decisions about murder? am i a worthless and evil animal if i had planned it beforehand, and made it gruesome? if i had done it quickly out of self defense, what then? it makes no difference- i could very well have taunted someone into attacking me in order to kill them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1728315 - 07/18/03 07:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I have to say, I admire these people, and the people who bomb abortion clinics.

I feel that if someone truely believes that abortion is murder, then they should be taking violent action against it. I don't see how anyone could believe that abortion really is murder of small children, and not take up arms against it.

If people were legally taking children out of day-care and bashing their heads in with hammers I would take up arms against them and destroy all the personal property I could.

Anyone who believes abortion is murder and does not bomb abortion clinics is a coward.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1728321 - 07/18/03 07:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

an eye for an eye makes the world go blind..


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: ]
    #1728336 - 07/18/03 07:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What would you do if you lived next door to a toddler incinerator?

Start a petition? :rolleyes:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1728481 - 07/18/03 08:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I think the word "hypocrite" is an understatement in this case.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: monoamine]
    #1728493 - 07/18/03 08:07 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I suspect that most of these people don't really believe that abortion is murder.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1728506 - 07/18/03 08:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see abortion as murder in most cases...but that's beyond the scope of this thread so I won't say anything further.

Murdering someone because you don't like "murder"...well,I'll let you put two and two together...


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: monoamine]
    #1728512 - 07/18/03 08:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"Murdering" a murderer in order to stop them from murdering innocent children isn't murder, it's defending the innocent.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1728535 - 07/18/03 08:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You actually think putting a gun to somebody's head and blowing their brains out or bombing them to mounds of body parts is the same thing as performing an abortion?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: monoamine]
    #1728553 - 07/18/03 08:38 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

No, I said that if you believe that, then you would have to be a coward not to take up arms against abortion clinics and doctors.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1728617 - 07/18/03 09:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I do believe that it is murder. I believe it is the same as just shooting random kids on the street. If I thought it would actually help anything by bombing abortion clinics then I would be very tempted. I have actually thought about torching some buildings, but would that change anyones mind? Would that make any difference at all? I would say it would turn more people against my cause. Unlike these animal rights activists I realize this.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: z@z.com]
    #1728644 - 07/18/03 09:23 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

so youd happily murder murderers for murdering ( i cant help writing stuff like that ), if public opinion was helped by it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 27 minutes
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: z@z.com]
    #1728759 - 07/18/03 10:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Minds arent going to change anyway.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: ]
    #1729063 - 07/19/03 12:47 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

No. I don't think I could kill them (nor do I think I should), but I might (if it would end it) torch some buildings.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1730239 - 07/19/03 04:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

WE'RE BEING USED!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1730250 - 07/19/03 04:18 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

is it impossible that these activists (in this case, extremists) placed the trackers on their own cars to raise a ruckus?

i consider ALF to be a criminal organization. their activities go far beyond political protest. they're extremists who commit violent crimes to further their agenda. i don't think it would be below them (or above their capabilities) to pull off fake tracking devices.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1730254 - 07/19/03 04:19 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:


It just alarmed me that activists anywhere at any time were being tracked without their knowledge. It makes me wonder where this could lead.





Yea, I agree that seems to be the real issue here.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,737
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Learyfan]
    #1731962 - 07/20/03 11:13 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hmmm. Never heard Leary say "no more secrets" I don't think.




I looked for a reference now, but couldn't find any. Maybe that was someone else I was thinking about. But I found this quote from Tim Leary:

Secrecy is the cause of 90% of human problems.

And among the Leary quotes I stumbled upon this one, apropos activists. Leary talks about Abbie Hoffman:

The thing I liked about Abbie was that he kept changing, taking risks, dropping acid, reprogramming his head. He became the ultimate contradiction -- a psychedelic socialist.

:wink: 


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineblackegg
...has left the building.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Rhizoid]
    #8059383 - 02/23/08 08:03 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This reminds me of the Police state thread here recently. Very relevant.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: blackegg]
    #8059641 - 02/23/08 11:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Does anyone actually believe it was the federal government doing this?

Do you really think if the FBI wanted to track someone, with all of their infinite resources that everyone here is so deathly afraid of, would they really use a big black pod that is stuck to your bumper?

You don't think their beyond this?

This was commercially available hardware. I find far more plausible this guy's assertion that a private company was the one responsible.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
Male


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8060258 - 02/23/08 02:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This was commercially available hardware. I find far more plausible this guy's assertion that a private company was the one responsible.




I agree. Probably the fur industry keeping tabs on him so they know when he is near their buildings. If it were the government they would have done something MUCH more subtle.


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: HighHat]
    #8060268 - 02/23/08 02:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It was me! I put the GPS transmitters there!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Activists find tracking systems on their cars [Re: Luddite]
    #8060363 - 02/23/08 03:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Confessions of an Anti-Sanctions Activist wingnutx 947 2 01/29/14 06:52 AM
by theindianrepublic
* The Case Against War EchoVortex 857 3 10/31/02 08:24 PM
by Anonymous
* Spy's in your car. luvdemshrooms 392 2 08/25/03 07:26 PM
by GabbaDj
* Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet
( 1 2 3 all )
Evolving 3,897 42 12/24/02 01:41 AM
by frogsheath
* CALL TO MOBILIZE AGAINST THE WTO JULY 27-30, 2003 /MONTREAL YouInfoIt 932 15 08/04/03 12:10 AM
by GernBlanston
* Bush Appoints Four More Homosexual Activists Ellis Dee 880 3 04/07/02 04:36 AM
by mm.
* Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Zahid 4,925 84 05/02/06 05:34 PM
by zappaisgod
* Patriot Act Used Against Common Criminals pattern 687 4 09/16/03 04:08 AM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,310 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.117 seconds spending 0.013 seconds on 16 queries.