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OfflineYouInfoIt
see you in hell

Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 187
Loc: bc, canada
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1
    #499069 - 12/23/01 02:14 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

from indymedia.org...

?Wake up Neo . . . the matrix has you.? ACT NOW!!!

Join the International Movement DEMANDING Inquiry into 9-11, and possible US Govt / CIA involvement. US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwood, was an actual operational plan to commit domestic terror on US civilians to whip America into a war frenzy. US plans more invasions.
?Wake up Neo . . . the matrix has you.? ACT NOW!!!

Join the International Movement DEMANDING Inquiry into 9-11, and possible US Govt / CIA involvement. US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwood, was an actual operational plan to commit domestic terror on US civilians to whip America into a war frenzy. US plans more invasions.


I urge you to consider this.

Ashcroft continues to assail civil liberties, as Bush prepares
America for possible invasion of Iraq, Somalia, North Korea, and a
dozen other countries (Nightline), Bush gaff reveals he saw jet hit
1st tower long before America even saw the 2nd tower hit on TV (what station was he watching?), and Egypt's joins the parade of foreign state
intelligence that warned Bush/CIA before 9-11. IF YOU HAVE HAD ABOUT
ENOUGH, AND ARE READY TO JOIN AN INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT TO DEMAND
INQUIRY INTO 9-11 AND POSSIBLE CIA / US GOVT. COLLUSION, reply to
mailto:findtruth38@hotmail.com?subject=send_kit

Right now the world activist community is running from one springing
leak to another while the powers that be keep punching new holes in
the dam, be it attacks on the environment, new wars, civil liberties
being stripped, human rights abuses, US domestic terror threats, etc.

Our scattered focus makes us relatively powerless. IF we could
gather our strength and FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM on this issue of "was
there US govt. collusion in 9-11?", we could create a ROAR of demand
worldwide that could command a full investigation into the inner
workings of a network that has manipulated foreign govts, repressed
peoples of the world, strip mined the environment, etc. in the name
of greed.

THIS IS THE ROOT! By DEMANDING an inquiry all other things can begin
to heal. I believe that they like it when we are scattered in a
million places arguing over this lake's clarity, or this country's
human rights issue, or genetic engineering, or air pollution -- NEVER
LOOKING AT THE ROOT that ships nearly ALL weapons to developing
countries (World Bank stats), thereby retarding social progress in
countries so they can have "stable" economic investments no matter
how repressive those governments are, or manipulating elections to
get more "business friendly" leaders in other nations (ones less
concerned with environmental laws, labor laws, and less concerned
with genetic engineered crops, etc.).

OUR ABILITY TO CHANGE THE WORLD IS RIGHT HERE IN OUR HANDS, AND HAS
BEEN BUILT OVER THE LAST 2 DECADES. WE ONLY NEED TO SEE IT FOR WHAT
IT'S GREATEST STRENGTH IS. The organizations built in the last 20
years over the environment, human rights, civil rights, animal
rights, the election irregularities and the stolen 2000 election,
etc. -- HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF CHANGING THE WORLD -- IF WE CAN COME
TOGETHER. The internet, and international coordination of activists
worldwide, our networks, and ability to move mass information freely
through the world via the internet is A POWERFUL TOOL. BUT NOT, if
we have ten thousand different issues flying to the media and
government. WE MUST CREATE A DRUMBEAT THAT WILL FORCE THEM TO LOOK
AT THE ROOT!!

The Activist Kit created through the work of journalists and
academics worldwide offered freely to anyone is a tool that empowers
individuals to MOVE BEYOND THE HAMSTER WHEEL OF "ACTIVIST ONLY
TALKING TO OTHER ACTIVISTS, AND AROUND AND AROUND" and empowers them
to move the 8 disturbing reports around 9-11 (all sourced to
mainstream media articles) out to world media, world government,
Congress, US Governors, etc. etc. to DEMAND inquiry.

If we cannot focus on this, all our various issues are only noise.
We must FOCUS. And THIS IS THE ISSUE OF OUR TIME! Why?

Most activists are aware the CIA has been manipulating governments,
elections, and supporting human rights abuses in other countries.
HOWEVER, THEY STEPPED ACROSS THE LINE IF THEY HAD A PART IN 9-11.
Because, Americans (I'm sad to say) were very acquiesent about the
CIA doing their dirty deeds in other countries, BUT THEY WILL HAVE A
DIFFERENT ATTITUDE WHEN THEY BEGIN TO LEARN THEY MAY HAVE BEEN
INVOLVED IN THE NY WTC TERROR ON INNOCENT AMERICANS.

SECONDLY, some minor underling "got a little greedy" when he made the
stock short profits off American and United Airlines the week before
9-11. This exposes a soft underbelly of a beast that normally is
impregnable to investigation. PROBLEM is the US media is not looking
into it (which is bizzare because they had a media orgasm over the
insider stock trading discovery on 9-12 and 9-13 when they thought it
was Arab terrorists). Of course now we know it leads to AB Brown
Trust, an investment firm that has been close to CIA ops for some
time, chaired up until a couple years ago by AB Krongard (now the #3
man at the CIA). In this light Bush's bizarre recent act of "sealing
presidential records from scrutiny" for the first time in US history,
becomes so suspicious it almost rattles you apart to try and deny
just how suspicious it is.

So, to recap of why we should be moving on this now:
1) Americans will FINALLY be repulsed by CIA ops if they find they
were connected to 9-11
2) The greedy underling opened up the soft belly when he did the
stock shorts, there lies a thread to unravel the dark armor (if
pursued).
3) If people that were willing to kill 5,000 of their own are in
positions of power, how much compassionate civil rights, human
rights, or environmental rights legislation will really pass? Enough
to keep us scampering and busy all the time, yes, but enough to
really change anything in any significant way? No way!

NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT, THE ACTIVIST KITS are powerful tools, IF WE
CAN FOCUS THE WORLD ACTIVIST COMMUNITY WORLDWIDE TO CIRCULATE THESE
KITS AND EXPAND THEM WITH OTHER CONTACT LISTS WE CAN "GET AROUND" THE
PROPAGANDA MEDIA OF THE U.S. AND GET AMERICANS AND OTHERS WORLDWIDE
TO DEMAND INQUIRY INTO 9-11. And in doing so perform the most
healing and meaningful act we can for the future of our country and
our planet.

Bush is now preparing Americans for invasion of Iraq, Somalia, and
many other countries including North Korea (Nightline). Things can
get out of hand very fast. The wider the war, the less Americans and
the media will have the appetite for inquiry. A few more anthrax
letters carefully placed, or another major terrorist strike "allowed"
to happen will put Americans into a goose stepping mode that could
have horrible results.

Help me get the Activist Kit out, and URGE every group to make the
DEMAND FOR INQUIRY THEIR PRIORITY IN COMING MONTHS!

God bless, Godspeed.

reply to findtruth38@hotmail.com with "Send Kit" in subject line to
get free kit

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the
leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or
a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship
...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they
are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism
and exposing the country to danger."
--Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the
Nuremberg Trials after World War II


WHY DID MAINSTREAM MEDIA "VOW TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE INSIDER
TRADING THAT PROFITED OFF THE 9-11 HORROR," AND THEN SUDDENLY . . .
DROPPED THE STORY?

The 8 DISTURBING FACTS:

- The Bush Administration forced the FBI to back off of the Bin Laden
investigation months before 9-11. [BBC transcript BUSH ? BIN LADEN
HIDDEN AGENDA!!!]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/newsnight/newsid_1645000/16455
27.stm

?I Don?t Buy It? ? I was one of the first tenants in the World Trade Center (WTC) back in 1979. Back then----over 20 years ago----it was known to all the tenants of the WTC that the WTC was a ?no fly? zone. If you came within 12 miles of the WTC, flying outside of a pattern where you were supposed to be, you were warned to back off. If you came within five miles, they would threaten to shoot you down. If you came within three miles, they could shoot you down. If I remember correctly, on the roof of tower No. 2 they had surface to air missiles for that purpose, plus also the Spatz helicopters for that purpose. ?I had a friend who was flying a small plane who got warned away and they almost blew him out of the sky 20 years ago because he was showing somebody a close view of the towers. ?I can see the first tower getting hit by surprise, but 15 minutes later the second tower also gets hit? I don?t buy it.?
-- Walter Burien, Radio Free America, Nov 11, 2001

- The CIA station chief in Dubai met with Bin Laden 7 weeks before
9-11, and at a time when Bin Laden was supposedly "wanted" by the CIA.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html (UK Guardian)
?(German Trans.) http://www.orf.at/orfon/011031-44569/index.html
(US Wash Times Artcl: www.washtimes.com Report: bin Laden treated at US hospital
Elizabeth Bryant UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL Published 10/31/2001


- INSIDER TRADING PROFITS off of 9-11 were frenzied over by the US
media when they thought it was Arab terrorists . . . but then the
story mysteriously died. Until, the UK Independent reveals that it
leads to a firm chaired by the 3rd highest man in the CIA (and
stranger still is that $2.5 million of the "winnings" are still
unclaimed (see below for URL to entire story).
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP110A.html . Info confirmed by
Independent Newspaper in UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?
story=99402

- ABC News.com's May/2001 story resurfaces about how the US Joint
Chiefs of Staff have in the past ACTUALLY DESIGNED a plan to commit
domestic terror on Americans to whip them into a war hysteria, to
support war efforts by the govt.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

[The National Security Archive has a PDF version of the Operation
Northwoods plan, which author James Bamford says "may be the most
corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government." It can be found at
the following URL:]
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

- Strangely Anthrax is sent to (not the President, or Republicans)
but to the top Democrat and to the media. A foriegn terrorist would
probably want to "divide" the country, not unite the opposition and
the media in the war effort.
- New Science Journal says Anthrax sent to Daschle is NOT Russian or
Iraqi, but likely US military strain.

- San Francisco Chronicle reports, the anthrax strain produced in US
University is destroyed on ok of FBI (they had studied this for
years, some at university question the timing of the destruction of
those anthrax spores . . . right now of all times (?))
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
f=/chronicle/archive/2001/11/09/MN153227.DTL

- Bush Admin. declares they will "seal the records of presidents
beginning with Father Bush/Reagans (an act never before done in US
presidential history)." AND What bizarre timing. In the midst of a
war and an economic disaster -- they find the time and "the desire"
to seal the records of the Reagan/Bush admin, just as info is
surfacing about Bush/Bin Laden connections from years back. (Details
in Scripps-Howard News Service, appearing in Chico, CA paper on
11/5/2001)

"It is not a stretch to wonder if this White House is up to something
that it doesn't want known 12 years from now or anytime thereafter.
[A direct quote from the piece carried by Scripps Howard News
Service. Re: Bush's sealing of presidential records for the first
time in U.S. history]

FTW) - On November 28th an estimated 1,000 people came from as far away as Seattle and San Francisco to Portland State University to see FTW Publisher/Editor Mike Ruppert give a 2 hour lecture and documentary presentation on the events surrounding the September 11th attacks and their aftermath. Starting with an offer of $1,000 to anyone who could show that any of the sources he cited were not authentic or misrepresented, Ruppert launched into an display of more than 40 visual exhibits showing government complicity in and foreknowledge of the attacks.

The event was organized by the campus newspaper The Rear Guard and its editor Dimitris Desyllas. I never expected that we would have this kind of turnout, Desyllas said. But it is obvious that the public has very deep concerns about what we are being told and what the government is doing. We eventually brought in 860 chairs and there were people all around the walls and on the floor. One of the volunteer videographers at the event was a Native American spiritual teacher of the Dakota Sioux nation, Skip Mahawk.

Mahawk, then with the 101st Airborne Division, won the Congressional Medal of Honor at the legendary 1969 Vietnam War battle known as Hamburger Hill. Mahawk refused to accept the decoration.

Ruppert's lecture was full of documentary evidence. After pointing out -
among other things - that the Chief of Pakistani intelligence (approved for his position by the CIA) ordered a $100,000 wire transfer to lead hijackerMohammed Atta; that the Bush family had business dealings with the bin Laden family through the Carlyle Group, that the U.S. and British governments had extensive military deployments already in the area before the attacks, and that the Bush administration had ordered the FBI to stop investigating two relatives of Osama bin Laden living near CIA headquarters this January, Ruppert launched into the centerpiece of the lecture which was a visual presentation of his time line of events around September 11th - which left some members of the audience in tears. See: http://www.copvcia.com/stories/nov_2001/lucy.html

mailto:findtruth38@hotmail.com?subject=send_kit


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 21,330
Loc: Wexico
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: YouInfoIt]
    #499222 - 12/23/01 11:52 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Good God what a joke.


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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: YouInfoIt]
    #499267 - 12/23/01 01:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"Most activists are aware the CIA has been manipulating governments,
elections, and supporting human rights abuses in other countries.
HOWEVER, THEY STEPPED ACROSS THE LINE IF THEY HAD A PART IN 9-11.
Because, Americans (I'm sad to say) were very acquiesent about the
CIA doing their dirty deeds in other countries, BUT THEY WILL HAVE A
DIFFERENT ATTITUDE WHEN THEY BEGIN TO LEARN THEY MAY HAVE BEEN
INVOLVED IN THE NY WTC TERROR ON INNOCENT AMERICANS. "

Not saying I believe your CIA -9/11 consoiracy theory, but even if so you are naive to think that 'fellow Americans' would give a hoot. Even if proof were offered up, they'd just look the other way and believe it was a rogue group - at worst the gov will have to drag out a 'Patsy' for them to blame.....

We all know the CIA planned and asssinated President Kennedy and you don't see any big uprising do you? No, the ignorant boobus American just votes for more conservatives (They'll vote for them as long as they work to keep the black man in his place).

We didn't learn anything from Vietnam. Instead of admitting our error, we build a monument to the guys who died over there and proclaim them 'heroes'. Hence we are doomed to repeat another stupid exercise, designed primarily to benefit the wealthy. (Not that I don't support the current war effort - I figure getting rid of any conservatives in power is probably a good thing - Taliban), Of course the US will work hard to put another dictatorship in power that will benefit it's business interests. How many innocent people die or starve is not our problem. We support these dictatorships all over the world - anything for cheap bananas, oil, clothes or whatever else we might obtain cheaply. After all, a hungry people have little bargaining power...

Finally, you'd be crazy to join any movement that might get your name on a list of 'Un-American activists' - not if you want to keep a decent job. Hard enough to avoid discrimination even if one's a Liberal Democrat.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: YouInfoIt]
    #499282 - 12/23/01 01:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

when you return from your "conspiracy meetings" please feel free to make sense.

Was that a black helicopter i just saw?...back to the bunker!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinecyclone
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Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 18
Loc: northern N.C.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: YouInfoIt]
    #499397 - 12/23/01 05:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

what a load of shit!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: YouInfoIt]
    #499424 - 12/23/01 05:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

so ah.....who's sock puppet are you?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #499434 - 12/23/01 06:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, it's obvious that SOMEBODY has a conspiracy brewing here. How else can we explain the events of 9-11 and the evil events since then. Why is it considered crazy to ever think that, yes people have been know to conspire to do evil things (especially when MONEY & POWER are at stake)?


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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Offlinejihead
addict
Registered: 06/09/00
Posts: 399
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #499463 - 12/23/01 07:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"when you return from your "conspiracy meetings" please feel free to make sense.

Was that a black helicopter i just saw?...back to the bunker!!"

what about that doesnt make sense. explain please.


--------------------
kill white noise


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: Jammer]
    #499464 - 12/23/01 07:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

****Well, it's obvious that SOMEBODY has a conspiracy brewing here. How else can we explain the events of 9-11 and the evil events since then. ****

Yeah and that somebody had the bajesus bombed out of them.....how can we explain it?.. I think they call it terrorists. Not every problem comes in a nicely wrapped box easy to open.....

****Why is it considered crazy to ever think that, yes people have been know to conspire to do evil things (especially when MONEY & POWER are at stake)? ****

so you agree with this nut job?



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: jihead]
    #499467 - 12/23/01 07:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

***what about that doesnt make sense. explain please. ***

wow your one of them eh?...that would explain it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: jihead]
    #499925 - 12/24/01 08:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It's easy to explain, prepare your self for a bunch of rhetorics on how the american governament will destroy everyone who oposes them and how good and brave it is for protecting americans from the nasty and destructive arabs, if you want to make him see some facts or making him understand others opinion, you have to open his head with an axe and deploy those facts and opinions. Nothing makes sense to him but the blind and dogmatic american way and trying to presuade him the opposite will only make a shortcircuit on his little brain.
Back to the point, i'll read those links later, what i read is really scary, if this theory is correct (wich will be a no surprise), everybody in the world will have to question them selfs if democracy is really the way to go, all its principles have been subverted during the last century, i'm not a "conspiracy theory" fan but i believe there are power games behind some institutional moves, this power games linked to secret agencies and run be few makes me believe that somebody with power and interests could actually orchestrated all this incidents, if they can control information there's nothing we can do to stop them as the population is controled by the information they get. I'll be back later.

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: MAIA]
    #500196 - 12/24/01 05:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I have seen some timeline charts, and they don't add up for a building designed for the toughest security measures in New York. Still not impenatrable for those would be assasins with wooden knives. Watch Out.
"Information Kills Communism."


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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #500953 - 12/25/01 06:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Like I said, I don't have a problem with getting rid of the Taliban. Just more conservatiuve assholes in my book.

But what does trouble me is that we have spent billions on the secret service, the NSA, the CIA, the FBI, and a whole lot of other aconyms and what do we have to show for it? Dossiers on some American's sex lives? What a crock..

And it is pretty obvious that not a single hijackers passport was from Afghanistanm and in fact, not a single hijacker. They were mostly Sauudis. You know from that p[lace where we suppoort a puppet dictatorship and where millions live in poverty and hate our guts.. Where women are treated almost as bad as in Afghanistan? But as long as we get cheap oil, we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right?

But when we give miilions to keep these corrupt pigs in power, when we support Israel steal ing land and killing rock throwing 11 year old boys,,, then perhaps the Arab world has some legitimite reason to despise us...

Only a blooming idiot thinks we are going to fix all the hatred against us by bombing Afghanistan..



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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: ElPrimo]
    #501113 - 12/25/01 10:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

if there is a conspiracy, it's not the government... it would be a collaboration of powerful people with common interests scattered throughout the world. "terrorist group" is a deceptive term because it implies a small group of fundamentalists. terrorists can also be secular people who simply want influence or control. look towards the military, the stock brokers, oil tycoons... look in New York, London... Saudi Arabia makes a lot of sense too. but you're not going to learn the truth by investigating the government.

i don't think we've seen the end of this. whoever did this obviously has resources and connections and spent a lot of time preparing. they aren't going to just perform one act and then stop. they have a goal in mind here. and there's not much we can do except be aware and protect our constitutional rights... which we really aren't doing a very good job of right now :(


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into [Re: ElPrimo]
    #501168 - 12/25/01 11:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ElPrimo writes:

"And it is pretty obvious that not a single hijackers passport was from Afghanistanm and in fact, not a single hijacker. They were mostly Sauudis."

What's your point? Osama bin Laden is a Saudi. Probably still has a Saudi passport, too, though it may be expired. The reason he mounted his operation from Afghanistan rather than from Saudi Arabia is because he was kicked out by the Saudis, and welcomed by the Taliban. He and his crew of Saudi expatriates hate the Saudi government and want to overthrow it, because they consider it to be corrupt and not properly respectful of Islam.

"You know from that p[lace where we suppoort a puppet dictatorship and where millions live in poverty and hate our guts.. Where women are treated almost as bad as in Afghanistan? "

Puppet dictatorship? I thought it was an absolute monarchy. How long has the royal family of Saud been in power there? Since before WWII, no? And millions living in poverty? The Saudi populace does pretty well... a lot of the oil money is used on social programs, as it is in Kuwait and Dubai.

As for the way women are treated... they are treated pretty much the same in Saudi Arabia as they are in almost every other Islamic country with the exception of Turkey. Afghanistan was exceptionally bad under Taliban rule, but women get the short end of the stick in all Islamic socieities.

"But as long as we get cheap oil, we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right?"

You must be thinking of some other country, not Saudi Arabia. There is no lack of medicine, food, education or infrastructure in Saudi Arabia. And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"? Overthrow the Saudi Government? Break an alliance that was signed by Harry Truman over half a century ago? Exactly what has Saudi Arabia ever done to America to deserve that? Where would America's credibility with her other allies if she broke alliances on a whim?

If the CIA ever DID mount an operation to replace the current Saudi regime, you can bet that the American Left, the entire Middle East, maybe even the entire UN, would be screaming themselves hoarse over "Yet another example of American interference in the affairs of sovereign nations!" and "Once again the Americans demonstrate their Imperialist ambitions!"

"But when we give miilions to keep these corrupt pigs in power..."

America doesn't give Saudi Arabia millions. Saudi Arabia doesn't need American handouts... they've got oil revenues coming out their ears. It is true that America has kept a military presence in Saudi Arabia since the Gulf War at the request of the Saudi government because the Saudis fear that Iraq still wants the Saudi oilfields, just as America has a military presence in the countries of some of their other allies. But America doesn't keep the corrupt Saudi pigs in power... they do a pretty good job of it all on their own.

"Only a blooming idiot thinks we are going to fix all the hatred against us by bombing Afghanistan."

Bush doesn't think that eliminating the Taliban will eliminate hatred of America. He did, however, recognize that it was a necessary first step in capturing Osama bin Laden.

Taliban strongholds were bombed because the Taliban harbored Osama bin Laden. If they had either turned him over or let the Americans come in and get him, there would have been no need for bombs.

pinky




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OfflineYouInfoIt
see you in hell

Registered: 10/26/01
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into 9-1 [Re: MAIA]
    #501310 - 12/26/01 02:57 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

the bottom line is america has added afganistan to its list of countries under american interests control.
there is a dwindling number of countries still resistant to their control...cuba, north korea, ???
have they invaded iraq yet?



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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into [Re: Phred]
    #501535 - 12/26/01 01:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Glad you mention Harry Truman, Pinky. I really like a lot of what this guy stood for. Especially his total disdain for the Republican Party - (and he saw it before the racists all came over from the Southern Democrats!).

In any event, I do not necessarily differentiate between an 'absolute monarchy' and a 'Dictatorship'. Same thing, says I. One could argue about the 'puppet' adjective, however. As far as his (King Faud's) Royal heritage, I don't know. Though I would suspect his credentials. It is for sure he is incompetent at present. He had a stoke several years back and can hardly talk.. That IS a corrupt government. And we do support it, with training and military goods and many other things. We do this as a habit. Didn't we try and install a puppet 'Prince' in VietNam? And didn't we support the Shah for ages? Speaking of Iran, even they are less repressive to women than the Saudis..

And as to your (rhetorical) question.. "And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"?"...
No, I don't think we should 'overthrow the Saudi Gov't'.. Or involve the CIA, that's how you think, not me.. That's what we've been doing for years,, all over the world. That is what I am protesting.

I think we should work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter. You know, one of those areas where conservatives choose to ignore our committments and won't even pay our bills.. That integrity you refer to doesn't seem to mean much there. And in many other areas.

And if you do not find it pertinant to the discussion that Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for these terrorists, you are mistaken. No, what the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society. And not always go with what will fatten our own pocketbook or pay back wealthy political ideologues. (I'll look for your post about 'breaking the bank', :-)


It is wrong that disease is killing so many children around the world and we sit back and do nothing while charging people more for a day's supply of medicine than they make in a month. It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution. It's called leadership. Like with the Kyoto treaty..

But hell, if we worked as a team... then we might not always get the best deal, we might not be able to squeeze that extra profit out of desparate folks... Conservatives care for nothing so much as their pocketbooks..

I already said I don't have a problem getting rid of the Taliban.. just more conservatives in my book, though more radical than most. And we must protect ourselves if possible. And I don't think America is a bad place.. I think it is a great Country and has done wonderful things.. usually over the objections of conservatives. - I just think it can be a whole lot better... and NEEDS to be. The world is becoming more and more dangerous... Atthe turn of the century, the wealthiest Countries were only abouy 12 times as rich as the poorest.. Now the spread is in the hundreds of times and this is a very dangerous and definately unjust situation..

Finally, do you not think it is telling that our enemy has been referring to America as the 'Great Evil'... and now GW Bush refers to the attackers as 'Evil'?? That they think they have God on their side, just like we do?


Edited by ElPrimo (12/26/01 01:57 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into [Re: ElPrimo]
    #501707 - 12/26/01 07:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ElPrimo writes:

"It is for sure he is incompetent at present. He had a stoke several years back and can hardly talk.. That IS a corrupt government."

Just because the titular head of a government has a medical condition does not necessarily mean that the entire government is CORRUPT. "Incompetent" and "corrupt" are not synonymous. Besides, if the Saudi government is perceived by many as being corrupt (and it certainly is, at the very least, REPRESSIVE by American standards) this perception arose long before the King had a stroke.

"And we do support it, with training and military goods and many other things."

As America does with her other allies... NATO countries, for example. Besides, your beef seems to be with the way the Saudi royal family treats its own citizens, not its neighbours. The American military presence (of which there was none before the Gulf War, don't forget) is forbidden both by America and by Saudi Arabia to address internal dissent. It is garrisoned there only so that Sadam will think twice before trying another invasion. If there had been no invasion of Kuwait, there would be no American soldiers in Saudi Arabia today.

"Speaking of Iran, even they are less repressive to women than the Saudis..."

Marginally.

"And as to your (rhetorical) question.. "And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"?"...
No, I don't think we should 'overthrow the Saudi Gov't'.. Or involve the CIA, that's how you think, not me.. That's what we've been doing for years,, all over the world. That is what I am protesting."

Excuse me for interpreting your first post as a diatribe against a corrupt regime (Saudi Arabia) that deserves to be removed from power. It certainly read that way to me. You said:

"...we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right?"

Now you are saying that the way America should help the Saudi populace (who are no more starving or uneducated or disease-ridden than American citizens) is not to replace the repressive government that is in place in Saudi Arabia, but to:

"work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter."

The guidelines in the charter do not allow America (or any other UN member) to do anything more than condemn human rights violations, and to try to persuade (through diplomacy and rational discourse) the leaders of Saudi Arabia to adopt a more enlightened approach to government. This approach hasn't worked with any authoritarian country so far. Not once. How many condemnations from the UN did the USSR ignore? Answer -- all of them. Or China? Or Argentina? Or Chile? Or Cambodia? Or Uganda, Rwanda, South Africa, Iraq... the list goes on. If you think that the rulers of any authoritarian regime give two shits about world opinion, then may I say I find your faith in the essential humanity of ruthless dictators to be truly touching. I now feel ashamed for being so cynical.

Do you recall Stalin's response to the Pope's condemnation of the USSR? "How many (army) divisions does the Pope command?"

"And if you do not find it pertinant to the discussion that Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for these terrorists, you are mistaken."

Saudi Arabia is not THE prime breeding ground for terrorists, but it is certainly one of them.

"No, what the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society."

Specifics. I need specifics. Exactly how can America "instill more justice" in a country ruled by a repressive regime, short of replacing that regime with one less repressive? How could America have "instilled more justice" in the USSR, for example? America has no right to "instill" anything in any country. America only has the right to try to persuade, and the right to refuse to do business with that country. And when that happens (The UN-approved sanctions against Iraq, as a current example) the American Left immediately goes ballistic and claims that America is murdering half a million Iraqi children per year.

"It is wrong that disease is killing so many children around the world, and we sit back and do nothing while charging people more for a day's supply of medicine than they make in a month."

It is not "wrong" that disease exists. It is a fact of nature. And America hardly "sits back and does nothing" about it. It is a matter of public record that America provides more foreign aid than all the other countries of the world put together. America sends medical teams to developing countries riddled with famine and pestilence. Further, the vast majority of medical advances that combat these diseases were developed by Americans. Polio, smallpox, yellow fever, diptheria, tuberculosis, malaria and more... all were eliminated or virtually eliminated due to American efforts.

It is hardly America's fault that a peasant living in a country ruled by a corrupt regime makes so little money. How was it America's fault that thirty million Soviet peasants starved to death in the Ukraine? Exactly what did America do to force the inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa to spread AIDS among themselves like wildfire?

"It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution."

So it was wrong to let the Taliban exist as long as it did? If ever there was a source of ignorance and hatred, it was the Taliban, true? As for "mediating and working toward a resolution" with the Taliban, just exactly how many of America's suggestions do you think the Taliban mullahs would adopt, no matter how reasonable those suggestions might appear to you? For Pete's sake, man, those people DESPISED America! To them, America was the most evil entity in the history of mankind. What on earth makes you think they would even LISTEN to any suggestion proposed by America, let alone ACT on it?

"Conservatives care for nothing so much as their pocketbooks.. "

While the American Left are adept at decreeing what should be done with OTHER people's pocketbooks. Dude, if you want to spend a few thousand clams of your own money on buying AIDS medication for Africans, you have my blessing.

"Atthe turn of the century, the wealthiest Countries were only abouy 12 times as rich as the poorest.. Now the spread is in the hundreds of times and this is a very dangerous and definately unjust situation.."

That's to be expected. As time goes by, the countries where the populace enjoys the most personal freedom increase their wealth, while the countries with the least personal freedom stagnate or regress. The fact that slave societies don't prosper cannot be blamed on free societies.

"Finally, do you not think it is telling that our enemy has been referring to America as the 'Great Evil'... and now GW Bush refers to the attackers as 'Evil'?? That they think they have God on their side, just like we do? "

The key phrase here is "our enemy". All this indicates is that Bush is less restrained in his phrasing than... oh, let's say Jimmy Carter. Just because a religious fanatic chooses to label a country where women are not flogged for exposing their faces as an "evil" country does not make it so.

The other key phrase is "attackers". Those who initiate the use of physical force in human affairs are by definition evil.

Further, the Taliban was calling America "The Great Evil" long before the WTC and Pentagon were bombed. Please explain to me exactly what harm America ever did to Afghanistan prior to the attacks? Other than to give them foreign aid and to assist them (at no charge, with no strings attached) in expelling the Soviet invaders, of course.

pinky


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into [Re: Phred]
    #501872 - 12/26/01 11:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

some guy with apparently very stong beliefs and lots of time wrote:

>Further, the Taliban was calling America "The Great Evil" long before the WTC and Pentagon were bombed. Please explain to me exactly what harm America ever did to Afghanistan prior to the attacks? Other than to give them foreign aid and to assist them (at no charge, with no strings attached) in expelling the Soviet invaders, of course.

Well, I didn't read anything except that quote, but I'd just like to say that I can decide what's "evil" and what isn't even if that evil didn't do anything to me personally. And if, in a time of desperate need, that evil offered me assistance, I wouldn't hesitate in taking it. If for no other reason then for the simple fact that if I take assistance from the evil, I will still be around tomorrow to fight that evil. It's a pretty simple premise really, I'm astonished at how many people don't understand it.

This is a complicated world. It's not "this + that = clear answer". It's more like "unimaginable web of influences, ideals, ideas, beliefs... = anything and everything" or something to that effect.
Open your eyes. People are intelligent, things are complicated, there's no other way.


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Join the Int'l Movement to DEMAND Inquiry into [Re: Ulysees]
    #501875 - 12/26/01 11:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Just in case that wasn't clear enough...

The devil has never personally harmed me in any way. I still know that the devil is "evil". (I'm not getting into anything here, just using it as a very simple example that most people would be familiar with.)


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