| Home | Community | Message Board |
|
You are not signed in. Sign In New Account | Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery » |
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
NextShop:  Kratom Capsules for Sale  North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies  Substrate Bags  Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order  High THC Strains  Buy Kratom Extract |
| |||||||
 YouInfoIt see you in hell  Registered: 10/26/01 Posts: 187 Loc: bc, canada Last seen: 20 years, 3 months |
| ||||||
|
from indymedia.org...
?Wake up Neo . . . the matrix has you.? ACT NOW!!! Join the International Movement DEMANDING Inquiry into 9-11, and possible US Govt / CIA involvement. US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwood, was an actual operational plan to commit domestic terror on US civilians to whip America into a war frenzy. US plans more invasions. ?Wake up Neo . . . the matrix has you.? ACT NOW!!! Join the International Movement DEMANDING Inquiry into 9-11, and possible US Govt / CIA involvement. US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwood, was an actual operational plan to commit domestic terror on US civilians to whip America into a war frenzy. US plans more invasions. I urge you to consider this. Ashcroft continues to assail civil liberties, as Bush prepares America for possible invasion of Iraq, Somalia, North Korea, and a dozen other countries (Nightline), Bush gaff reveals he saw jet hit 1st tower long before America even saw the 2nd tower hit on TV (what station was he watching?), and Egypt's joins the parade of foreign state intelligence that warned Bush/CIA before 9-11. IF YOU HAVE HAD ABOUT ENOUGH, AND ARE READY TO JOIN AN INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT TO DEMAND INQUIRY INTO 9-11 AND POSSIBLE CIA / US GOVT. COLLUSION, reply to mailto:findtruth38@hotmail.com?subject=send_kit Right now the world activist community is running from one springing leak to another while the powers that be keep punching new holes in the dam, be it attacks on the environment, new wars, civil liberties being stripped, human rights abuses, US domestic terror threats, etc. Our scattered focus makes us relatively powerless. IF we could gather our strength and FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM on this issue of "was there US govt. collusion in 9-11?", we could create a ROAR of demand worldwide that could command a full investigation into the inner workings of a network that has manipulated foreign govts, repressed peoples of the world, strip mined the environment, etc. in the name of greed. THIS IS THE ROOT! By DEMANDING an inquiry all other things can begin to heal. I believe that they like it when we are scattered in a million places arguing over this lake's clarity, or this country's human rights issue, or genetic engineering, or air pollution -- NEVER LOOKING AT THE ROOT that ships nearly ALL weapons to developing countries (World Bank stats), thereby retarding social progress in countries so they can have "stable" economic investments no matter how repressive those governments are, or manipulating elections to get more "business friendly" leaders in other nations (ones less concerned with environmental laws, labor laws, and less concerned with genetic engineered crops, etc.). OUR ABILITY TO CHANGE THE WORLD IS RIGHT HERE IN OUR HANDS, AND HAS BEEN BUILT OVER THE LAST 2 DECADES. WE ONLY NEED TO SEE IT FOR WHAT IT'S GREATEST STRENGTH IS. The organizations built in the last 20 years over the environment, human rights, civil rights, animal rights, the election irregularities and the stolen 2000 election, etc. -- HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF CHANGING THE WORLD -- IF WE CAN COME TOGETHER. The internet, and international coordination of activists worldwide, our networks, and ability to move mass information freely through the world via the internet is A POWERFUL TOOL. BUT NOT, if we have ten thousand different issues flying to the media and government. WE MUST CREATE A DRUMBEAT THAT WILL FORCE THEM TO LOOK AT THE ROOT!! The Activist Kit created through the work of journalists and academics worldwide offered freely to anyone is a tool that empowers individuals to MOVE BEYOND THE HAMSTER WHEEL OF "ACTIVIST ONLY TALKING TO OTHER ACTIVISTS, AND AROUND AND AROUND" and empowers them to move the 8 disturbing reports around 9-11 (all sourced to mainstream media articles) out to world media, world government, Congress, US Governors, etc. etc. to DEMAND inquiry. If we cannot focus on this, all our various issues are only noise. We must FOCUS. And THIS IS THE ISSUE OF OUR TIME! Why? Most activists are aware the CIA has been manipulating governments, elections, and supporting human rights abuses in other countries. HOWEVER, THEY STEPPED ACROSS THE LINE IF THEY HAD A PART IN 9-11. Because, Americans (I'm sad to say) were very acquiesent about the CIA doing their dirty deeds in other countries, BUT THEY WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE WHEN THEY BEGIN TO LEARN THEY MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE NY WTC TERROR ON INNOCENT AMERICANS. SECONDLY, some minor underling "got a little greedy" when he made the stock short profits off American and United Airlines the week before 9-11. This exposes a soft underbelly of a beast that normally is impregnable to investigation. PROBLEM is the US media is not looking into it (which is bizzare because they had a media orgasm over the insider stock trading discovery on 9-12 and 9-13 when they thought it was Arab terrorists). Of course now we know it leads to AB Brown Trust, an investment firm that has been close to CIA ops for some time, chaired up until a couple years ago by AB Krongard (now the #3 man at the CIA). In this light Bush's bizarre recent act of "sealing presidential records from scrutiny" for the first time in US history, becomes so suspicious it almost rattles you apart to try and deny just how suspicious it is. So, to recap of why we should be moving on this now: 1) Americans will FINALLY be repulsed by CIA ops if they find they were connected to 9-11 2) The greedy underling opened up the soft belly when he did the stock shorts, there lies a thread to unravel the dark armor (if pursued). 3) If people that were willing to kill 5,000 of their own are in positions of power, how much compassionate civil rights, human rights, or environmental rights legislation will really pass? Enough to keep us scampering and busy all the time, yes, but enough to really change anything in any significant way? No way! NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT, THE ACTIVIST KITS are powerful tools, IF WE CAN FOCUS THE WORLD ACTIVIST COMMUNITY WORLDWIDE TO CIRCULATE THESE KITS AND EXPAND THEM WITH OTHER CONTACT LISTS WE CAN "GET AROUND" THE PROPAGANDA MEDIA OF THE U.S. AND GET AMERICANS AND OTHERS WORLDWIDE TO DEMAND INQUIRY INTO 9-11. And in doing so perform the most healing and meaningful act we can for the future of our country and our planet. Bush is now preparing Americans for invasion of Iraq, Somalia, and many other countries including North Korea (Nightline). Things can get out of hand very fast. The wider the war, the less Americans and the media will have the appetite for inquiry. A few more anthrax letters carefully placed, or another major terrorist strike "allowed" to happen will put Americans into a goose stepping mode that could have horrible results. Help me get the Activist Kit out, and URGE every group to make the DEMAND FOR INQUIRY THEIR PRIORITY IN COMING MONTHS! God bless, Godspeed. reply to findtruth38@hotmail.com with "Send Kit" in subject line to get free kit "Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." --Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II WHY DID MAINSTREAM MEDIA "VOW TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE INSIDER TRADING THAT PROFITED OFF THE 9-11 HORROR," AND THEN SUDDENLY . . . DROPPED THE STORY? The 8 DISTURBING FACTS: - The Bush Administration forced the FBI to back off of the Bin Laden investigation months before 9-11. [BBC transcript BUSH ? BIN LADEN HIDDEN AGENDA!!!] http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/newsnight/newsid_1645000/16455 27.stm ?I Don?t Buy It? ? I was one of the first tenants in the World Trade Center (WTC) back in 1979. Back then----over 20 years ago----it was known to all the tenants of the WTC that the WTC was a ?no fly? zone. If you came within 12 miles of the WTC, flying outside of a pattern where you were supposed to be, you were warned to back off. If you came within five miles, they would threaten to shoot you down. If you came within three miles, they could shoot you down. If I remember correctly, on the roof of tower No. 2 they had surface to air missiles for that purpose, plus also the Spatz helicopters for that purpose. ?I had a friend who was flying a small plane who got warned away and they almost blew him out of the sky 20 years ago because he was showing somebody a close view of the towers. ?I can see the first tower getting hit by surprise, but 15 minutes later the second tower also gets hit? I don?t buy it.? -- Walter Burien, Radio Free America, Nov 11, 2001 - The CIA station chief in Dubai met with Bin Laden 7 weeks before 9-11, and at a time when Bin Laden was supposedly "wanted" by the CIA. http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html (UK Guardian) ?(German Trans.) http://www.orf.at/orfon/011031-44569/index.html (US Wash Times Artcl: www.washtimes.com Report: bin Laden treated at US hospital Elizabeth Bryant UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL Published 10/31/2001 - INSIDER TRADING PROFITS off of 9-11 were frenzied over by the US media when they thought it was Arab terrorists . . . but then the story mysteriously died. Until, the UK Independent reveals that it leads to a firm chaired by the 3rd highest man in the CIA (and stranger still is that $2.5 million of the "winnings" are still unclaimed (see below for URL to entire story). http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP110A.html . Info confirmed by Independent Newspaper in UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp? story=99402 - ABC News.com's May/2001 story resurfaces about how the US Joint Chiefs of Staff have in the past ACTUALLY DESIGNED a plan to commit domestic terror on Americans to whip them into a war hysteria, to support war efforts by the govt. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html [The National Security Archive has a PDF version of the Operation Northwoods plan, which author James Bamford says "may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government." It can be found at the following URL:] http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ - Strangely Anthrax is sent to (not the President, or Republicans) but to the top Democrat and to the media. A foriegn terrorist would probably want to "divide" the country, not unite the opposition and the media in the war effort. - New Science Journal says Anthrax sent to Daschle is NOT Russian or Iraqi, but likely US military strain. - San Francisco Chronicle reports, the anthrax strain produced in US University is destroyed on ok of FBI (they had studied this for years, some at university question the timing of the destruction of those anthrax spores . . . right now of all times (?)) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi? f=/chronicle/archive/2001/11/09/MN153227.DTL - Bush Admin. declares they will "seal the records of presidents beginning with Father Bush/Reagans (an act never before done in US presidential history)." AND What bizarre timing. In the midst of a war and an economic disaster -- they find the time and "the desire" to seal the records of the Reagan/Bush admin, just as info is surfacing about Bush/Bin Laden connections from years back. (Details in Scripps-Howard News Service, appearing in Chico, CA paper on 11/5/2001) "It is not a stretch to wonder if this White House is up to something that it doesn't want known 12 years from now or anytime thereafter. [A direct quote from the piece carried by Scripps Howard News Service. Re: Bush's sealing of presidential records for the first time in U.S. history] FTW) - On November 28th an estimated 1,000 people came from as far away as Seattle and San Francisco to Portland State University to see FTW Publisher/Editor Mike Ruppert give a 2 hour lecture and documentary presentation on the events surrounding the September 11th attacks and their aftermath. Starting with an offer of $1,000 to anyone who could show that any of the sources he cited were not authentic or misrepresented, Ruppert launched into an display of more than 40 visual exhibits showing government complicity in and foreknowledge of the attacks. The event was organized by the campus newspaper The Rear Guard and its editor Dimitris Desyllas. I never expected that we would have this kind of turnout, Desyllas said. But it is obvious that the public has very deep concerns about what we are being told and what the government is doing. We eventually brought in 860 chairs and there were people all around the walls and on the floor. One of the volunteer videographers at the event was a Native American spiritual teacher of the Dakota Sioux nation, Skip Mahawk. Mahawk, then with the 101st Airborne Division, won the Congressional Medal of Honor at the legendary 1969 Vietnam War battle known as Hamburger Hill. Mahawk refused to accept the decoration. Ruppert's lecture was full of documentary evidence. After pointing out - among other things - that the Chief of Pakistani intelligence (approved for his position by the CIA) ordered a $100,000 wire transfer to lead hijackerMohammed Atta; that the Bush family had business dealings with the bin Laden family through the Carlyle Group, that the U.S. and British governments had extensive military deployments already in the area before the attacks, and that the Bush administration had ordered the FBI to stop investigating two relatives of Osama bin Laden living near CIA headquarters this January, Ruppert launched into the centerpiece of the lecture which was a visual presentation of his time line of events around September 11th - which left some members of the audience in tears. See: http://www.copvcia.com/stories/nov_2001/lucy.html mailto:findtruth38@hotmail.com?subject=send_kit
| |||||||
 Senor_Doobie Snake Pit Champion   Registered: 08/11/99 Posts: 22,678 Loc: Trump Train |
| ||||||
|
Good God what a joke.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
| |||||||
|
ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
"Most activists are aware the CIA has been manipulating governments,
elections, and supporting human rights abuses in other countries. HOWEVER, THEY STEPPED ACROSS THE LINE IF THEY HAD A PART IN 9-11. Because, Americans (I'm sad to say) were very acquiesent about the CIA doing their dirty deeds in other countries, BUT THEY WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE WHEN THEY BEGIN TO LEARN THEY MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE NY WTC TERROR ON INNOCENT AMERICANS. " Not saying I believe your CIA -9/11 consoiracy theory, but even if so you are naive to think that 'fellow Americans' would give a hoot. Even if proof were offered up, they'd just look the other way and believe it was a rogue group - at worst the gov will have to drag out a 'Patsy' for them to blame..... We all know the CIA planned and asssinated President Kennedy and you don't see any big uprising do you? No, the ignorant boobus American just votes for more conservatives (They'll vote for them as long as they work to keep the black man in his place). We didn't learn anything from Vietnam. Instead of admitting our error, we build a monument to the guys who died over there and proclaim them 'heroes'. Hence we are doomed to repeat another stupid exercise, designed primarily to benefit the wealthy. (Not that I don't support the current war effort - I figure getting rid of any conservatives in power is probably a good thing - Taliban), Of course the US will work hard to put another dictatorship in power that will benefit it's business interests. How many innocent people die or starve is not our problem. We support these dictatorships all over the world - anything for cheap bananas, oil, clothes or whatever else we might obtain cheaply. After all, a hungry people have little bargaining power... Finally, you'd be crazy to join any movement that might get your name on a list of 'Un-American activists' - not if you want to keep a decent job. Hard enough to avoid discrimination even if one's a Liberal Democrat.
| |||||||
|
Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!!   Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
| ||||||
|
when you return from your "conspiracy meetings" please feel free to make sense.
Was that a black helicopter i just saw?...back to the bunker!! --------------------  America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
| |||||||
|
cyclone Stranger Registered: 03/15/01 Posts: 18 Loc: northern N.C. Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
what a load of shit!
| |||||||
|
Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!! Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
| ||||||
|
so ah.....who's sock puppet are you?
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
| |||||||
|
Jammer Computers areMOR  Registered: 11/04/00 Posts: 3,998 Loc: (God's Country) Last seen: 18 years, 2 months |
| ||||||
|
Well, it's obvious that SOMEBODY has a conspiracy brewing here. How else can we explain the events of 9-11 and the evil events since then. Why is it considered crazy to ever think that, yes people have been know to conspire to do evil things (especially when MONEY & POWER are at stake)?
-------------------- >>Jammer>>
| |||||||
|
jihead addict Registered: 06/08/00 Posts: 399 Last seen: 17 years, 11 days |
| ||||||
|
"when you return from your "conspiracy meetings" please feel free to make sense.
Was that a black helicopter i just saw?...back to the bunker!!" what about that doesnt make sense. explain please. -------------------- kill white noise
| |||||||
|
Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!! Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
| ||||||
|
****Well, it's obvious that SOMEBODY has a conspiracy brewing here. How else can we explain the events of 9-11 and the evil events since then. ****
Yeah and that somebody had the bajesus bombed out of them.....how can we explain it?.. I think they call it terrorists. Not every problem comes in a nicely wrapped box easy to open..... ****Why is it considered crazy to ever think that, yes people have been know to conspire to do evil things (especially when MONEY & POWER are at stake)? **** so you agree with this nut job? -------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
| |||||||
|
Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!! Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
| ||||||
|
***what about that doesnt make sense. explain please. ***
wow your one of them eh?...that would explain it. -------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
| |||||||
|
MAIA World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)  Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 7,391 Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri Last seen: 10 days, 19 hours |
| ||||||
|
It's easy to explain, prepare your self for a bunch of rhetorics on how the american governament will destroy everyone who oposes them and how good and brave it is for protecting americans from the nasty and destructive arabs, if you want to make him see some facts or making him understand others opinion, you have to open his head with an axe and deploy those facts and opinions. Nothing makes sense to him but the blind and dogmatic american way and trying to presuade him the opposite will only make a shortcircuit on his little brain.
Back to the point, i'll read those links later, what i read is really scary, if this theory is correct (wich will be a no surprise), everybody in the world will have to question them selfs if democracy is really the way to go, all its principles have been subverted during the last century, i'm not a "conspiracy theory" fan but i believe there are power games behind some institutional moves, this power games linked to secret agencies and run be few makes me believe that somebody with power and interests could actually orchestrated all this incidents, if they can control information there's nothing we can do to stop them as the population is controled by the information they get. I'll be back later. Peace, MAIA -------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala   Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
| |||||||
|
nugsarenice Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/04/00 Posts: 3,442 Loc: nowhere Last seen: 18 years, 3 months |
| ||||||
|
I have seen some timeline charts, and they don't add up for a building designed for the toughest security measures in New York. Still not impenatrable for those would be assasins with wooden knives. Watch Out.
"Information Kills Communism."
| |||||||
|
ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Like I said, I don't have a problem with getting rid of the Taliban. Just more conservatiuve assholes in my book.
But what does trouble me is that we have spent billions on the secret service, the NSA, the CIA, the FBI, and a whole lot of other aconyms and what do we have to show for it? Dossiers on some American's sex lives? What a crock.. And it is pretty obvious that not a single hijackers passport was from Afghanistanm and in fact, not a single hijacker. They were mostly Sauudis. You know from that p[lace where we suppoort a puppet dictatorship and where millions live in poverty and hate our guts.. Where women are treated almost as bad as in Afghanistan? But as long as we get cheap oil, we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right? But when we give miilions to keep these corrupt pigs in power, when we support Israel steal ing land and killing rock throwing 11 year old boys,,, then perhaps the Arab world has some legitimite reason to despise us... Only a blooming idiot thinks we are going to fix all the hatred against us by bombing Afghanistan..
| |||||||
|
Amoeba665 strange Registered: 05/23/00 Posts: 275 Loc: a hidden microut Last seen: 11 years, 5 months |
| ||||||
|
if there is a conspiracy, it's not the government... it would be a collaboration of powerful people with common interests scattered throughout the world. "terrorist group" is a deceptive term because it implies a small group of fundamentalists. terrorists can also be secular people who simply want influence or control. look towards the military, the stock brokers, oil tycoons... look in New York, London... Saudi Arabia makes a lot of sense too. but you're not going to learn the truth by investigating the government.
i don't think we've seen the end of this. whoever did this obviously has resources and connections and spent a lot of time preparing. they aren't going to just perform one act and then stop. they have a goal in mind here. and there's not much we can do except be aware and protect our constitutional rights... which we really aren't doing a very good job of right now :( -------------------- ---
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son  Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
ElPrimo writes:
"And it is pretty obvious that not a single hijackers passport was from Afghanistanm and in fact, not a single hijacker. They were mostly Sauudis." What's your point? Osama bin Laden is a Saudi. Probably still has a Saudi passport, too, though it may be expired. The reason he mounted his operation from Afghanistan rather than from Saudi Arabia is because he was kicked out by the Saudis, and welcomed by the Taliban. He and his crew of Saudi expatriates hate the Saudi government and want to overthrow it, because they consider it to be corrupt and not properly respectful of Islam. "You know from that p[lace where we suppoort a puppet dictatorship and where millions live in poverty and hate our guts.. Where women are treated almost as bad as in Afghanistan? " Puppet dictatorship? I thought it was an absolute monarchy. How long has the royal family of Saud been in power there? Since before WWII, no? And millions living in poverty? The Saudi populace does pretty well... a lot of the oil money is used on social programs, as it is in Kuwait and Dubai. As for the way women are treated... they are treated pretty much the same in Saudi Arabia as they are in almost every other Islamic country with the exception of Turkey. Afghanistan was exceptionally bad under Taliban rule, but women get the short end of the stick in all Islamic socieities. "But as long as we get cheap oil, we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right?" You must be thinking of some other country, not Saudi Arabia. There is no lack of medicine, food, education or infrastructure in Saudi Arabia. And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"? Overthrow the Saudi Government? Break an alliance that was signed by Harry Truman over half a century ago? Exactly what has Saudi Arabia ever done to America to deserve that? Where would America's credibility with her other allies if she broke alliances on a whim? If the CIA ever DID mount an operation to replace the current Saudi regime, you can bet that the American Left, the entire Middle East, maybe even the entire UN, would be screaming themselves hoarse over "Yet another example of American interference in the affairs of sovereign nations!" and "Once again the Americans demonstrate their Imperialist ambitions!" "But when we give miilions to keep these corrupt pigs in power..." America doesn't give Saudi Arabia millions. Saudi Arabia doesn't need American handouts... they've got oil revenues coming out their ears. It is true that America has kept a military presence in Saudi Arabia since the Gulf War at the request of the Saudi government because the Saudis fear that Iraq still wants the Saudi oilfields, just as America has a military presence in the countries of some of their other allies. But America doesn't keep the corrupt Saudi pigs in power... they do a pretty good job of it all on their own. "Only a blooming idiot thinks we are going to fix all the hatred against us by bombing Afghanistan." Bush doesn't think that eliminating the Taliban will eliminate hatred of America. He did, however, recognize that it was a necessary first step in capturing Osama bin Laden. Taliban strongholds were bombed because the Taliban harbored Osama bin Laden. If they had either turned him over or let the Americans come in and get him, there would have been no need for bombs. pinky -------------------- 
| |||||||
|
YouInfoIt see you in hell Registered: 10/26/01 Posts: 187 Loc: bc, canada Last seen: 20 years, 3 months |
| ||||||
|
the bottom line is america has added afganistan to its list of countries under american interests control.
there is a dwindling number of countries still resistant to their control...cuba, north korea, ??? have they invaded iraq yet?
| |||||||
|
ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Glad you mention Harry Truman, Pinky. I really like a lot of what this guy stood for. Especially his total disdain for the Republican Party - (and he saw it before the racists all came over from the Southern Democrats!).
In any event, I do not necessarily differentiate between an 'absolute monarchy' and a 'Dictatorship'. Same thing, says I. One could argue about the 'puppet' adjective, however. As far as his (King Faud's) Royal heritage, I don't know. Though I would suspect his credentials. It is for sure he is incompetent at present. He had a stoke several years back and can hardly talk.. That IS a corrupt government. And we do support it, with training and military goods and many other things. We do this as a habit. Didn't we try and install a puppet 'Prince' in VietNam? And didn't we support the Shah for ages? Speaking of Iran, even they are less repressive to women than the Saudis.. And as to your (rhetorical) question.. "And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"?"... No, I don't think we should 'overthrow the Saudi Gov't'.. Or involve the CIA, that's how you think, not me.. That's what we've been doing for years,, all over the world. That is what I am protesting. I think we should work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter. You know, one of those areas where conservatives choose to ignore our committments and won't even pay our bills.. That integrity you refer to doesn't seem to mean much there. And in many other areas. And if you do not find it pertinant to the discussion that Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for these terrorists, you are mistaken. No, what the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society. And not always go with what will fatten our own pocketbook or pay back wealthy political ideologues. (I'll look for your post about 'breaking the bank', :-) It is wrong that disease is killing so many children around the world and we sit back and do nothing while charging people more for a day's supply of medicine than they make in a month. It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution. It's called leadership. Like with the Kyoto treaty.. But hell, if we worked as a team... then we might not always get the best deal, we might not be able to squeeze that extra profit out of desparate folks... Conservatives care for nothing so much as their pocketbooks.. I already said I don't have a problem getting rid of the Taliban.. just more conservatives in my book, though more radical than most. And we must protect ourselves if possible. And I don't think America is a bad place.. I think it is a great Country and has done wonderful things.. usually over the objections of conservatives. - I just think it can be a whole lot better... and NEEDS to be. The world is becoming more and more dangerous... Atthe turn of the century, the wealthiest Countries were only abouy 12 times as rich as the poorest.. Now the spread is in the hundreds of times and this is a very dangerous and definately unjust situation.. Finally, do you not think it is telling that our enemy has been referring to America as the 'Great Evil'... and now GW Bush refers to the attackers as 'Evil'?? That they think they have God on their side, just like we do? Edited by ElPrimo (12/26/01 11:57 AM)
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
ElPrimo writes:
"It is for sure he is incompetent at present. He had a stoke several years back and can hardly talk.. That IS a corrupt government." Just because the titular head of a government has a medical condition does not necessarily mean that the entire government is CORRUPT. "Incompetent" and "corrupt" are not synonymous. Besides, if the Saudi government is perceived by many as being corrupt (and it certainly is, at the very least, REPRESSIVE by American standards) this perception arose long before the King had a stroke. "And we do support it, with training and military goods and many other things." As America does with her other allies... NATO countries, for example. Besides, your beef seems to be with the way the Saudi royal family treats its own citizens, not its neighbours. The American military presence (of which there was none before the Gulf War, don't forget) is forbidden both by America and by Saudi Arabia to address internal dissent. It is garrisoned there only so that Sadam will think twice before trying another invasion. If there had been no invasion of Kuwait, there would be no American soldiers in Saudi Arabia today. "Speaking of Iran, even they are less repressive to women than the Saudis..." Marginally. "And as to your (rhetorical) question.. "And what do you suggest America do to "help these folks"?"... No, I don't think we should 'overthrow the Saudi Gov't'.. Or involve the CIA, that's how you think, not me.. That's what we've been doing for years,, all over the world. That is what I am protesting." Excuse me for interpreting your first post as a diatribe against a corrupt regime (Saudi Arabia) that deserves to be removed from power. It certainly read that way to me. You said: "...we're not going to do a damn thing to help these folks... in fact we are going to see that they continue to suffer. That they stay ignorant and poor and millions of children die for lack of medicines, etc. But hey, it ain't our problem, right?" Now you are saying that the way America should help the Saudi populace (who are no more starving or uneducated or disease-ridden than American citizens) is not to replace the repressive government that is in place in Saudi Arabia, but to: "work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter." The guidelines in the charter do not allow America (or any other UN member) to do anything more than condemn human rights violations, and to try to persuade (through diplomacy and rational discourse) the leaders of Saudi Arabia to adopt a more enlightened approach to government. This approach hasn't worked with any authoritarian country so far. Not once. How many condemnations from the UN did the USSR ignore? Answer -- all of them. Or China? Or Argentina? Or Chile? Or Cambodia? Or Uganda, Rwanda, South Africa, Iraq... the list goes on. If you think that the rulers of any authoritarian regime give two shits about world opinion, then may I say I find your faith in the essential humanity of ruthless dictators to be truly touching. I now feel ashamed for being so cynical. Do you recall Stalin's response to the Pope's condemnation of the USSR? "How many (army) divisions does the Pope command?" "And if you do not find it pertinant to the discussion that Saudi Arabia is the prime breeding ground for these terrorists, you are mistaken." Saudi Arabia is not THE prime breeding ground for terrorists, but it is certainly one of them. "No, what the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society." Specifics. I need specifics. Exactly how can America "instill more justice" in a country ruled by a repressive regime, short of replacing that regime with one less repressive? How could America have "instilled more justice" in the USSR, for example? America has no right to "instill" anything in any country. America only has the right to try to persuade, and the right to refuse to do business with that country. And when that happens (The UN-approved sanctions against Iraq, as a current example) the American Left immediately goes ballistic and claims that America is murdering half a million Iraqi children per year. "It is wrong that disease is killing so many children around the world, and we sit back and do nothing while charging people more for a day's supply of medicine than they make in a month." It is not "wrong" that disease exists. It is a fact of nature. And America hardly "sits back and does nothing" about it. It is a matter of public record that America provides more foreign aid than all the other countries of the world put together. America sends medical teams to developing countries riddled with famine and pestilence. Further, the vast majority of medical advances that combat these diseases were developed by Americans. Polio, smallpox, yellow fever, diptheria, tuberculosis, malaria and more... all were eliminated or virtually eliminated due to American efforts. It is hardly America's fault that a peasant living in a country ruled by a corrupt regime makes so little money. How was it America's fault that thirty million Soviet peasants starved to death in the Ukraine? Exactly what did America do to force the inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa to spread AIDS among themselves like wildfire? "It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution." So it was wrong to let the Taliban exist as long as it did? If ever there was a source of ignorance and hatred, it was the Taliban, true? As for "mediating and working toward a resolution" with the Taliban, just exactly how many of America's suggestions do you think the Taliban mullahs would adopt, no matter how reasonable those suggestions might appear to you? For Pete's sake, man, those people DESPISED America! To them, America was the most evil entity in the history of mankind. What on earth makes you think they would even LISTEN to any suggestion proposed by America, let alone ACT on it? "Conservatives care for nothing so much as their pocketbooks.. " While the American Left are adept at decreeing what should be done with OTHER people's pocketbooks. Dude, if you want to spend a few thousand clams of your own money on buying AIDS medication for Africans, you have my blessing. "Atthe turn of the century, the wealthiest Countries were only abouy 12 times as rich as the poorest.. Now the spread is in the hundreds of times and this is a very dangerous and definately unjust situation.." That's to be expected. As time goes by, the countries where the populace enjoys the most personal freedom increase their wealth, while the countries with the least personal freedom stagnate or regress. The fact that slave societies don't prosper cannot be blamed on free societies. "Finally, do you not think it is telling that our enemy has been referring to America as the 'Great Evil'... and now GW Bush refers to the attackers as 'Evil'?? That they think they have God on their side, just like we do? " The key phrase here is "our enemy". All this indicates is that Bush is less restrained in his phrasing than... oh, let's say Jimmy Carter. Just because a religious fanatic chooses to label a country where women are not flogged for exposing their faces as an "evil" country does not make it so. The other key phrase is "attackers". Those who initiate the use of physical force in human affairs are by definition evil. Further, the Taliban was calling America "The Great Evil" long before the WTC and Pentagon were bombed. Please explain to me exactly what harm America ever did to Afghanistan prior to the attacks? Other than to give them foreign aid and to assist them (at no charge, with no strings attached) in expelling the Soviet invaders, of course. pinky --------------------
| |||||||
|
Ulysees Power of Lard  Registered: 10/06/01 Posts: 5,060 |
| ||||||
|
some guy with apparently very stong beliefs and lots of time wrote:
>Further, the Taliban was calling America "The Great Evil" long before the WTC and Pentagon were bombed. Please explain to me exactly what harm America ever did to Afghanistan prior to the attacks? Other than to give them foreign aid and to assist them (at no charge, with no strings attached) in expelling the Soviet invaders, of course. Well, I didn't read anything except that quote, but I'd just like to say that I can decide what's "evil" and what isn't even if that evil didn't do anything to me personally. And if, in a time of desperate need, that evil offered me assistance, I wouldn't hesitate in taking it. If for no other reason then for the simple fact that if I take assistance from the evil, I will still be around tomorrow to fight that evil. It's a pretty simple premise really, I'm astonished at how many people don't understand it. This is a complicated world. It's not "this + that = clear answer". It's more like "unimaginable web of influences, ideals, ideas, beliefs... = anything and everything" or something to that effect. Open your eyes. People are intelligent, things are complicated, there's no other way. -------------------- 
| |||||||
|
Ulysees Power of Lard Registered: 10/06/01 Posts: 5,060 |
| ||||||
|
Just in case that wasn't clear enough...
The devil has never personally harmed me in any way. I still know that the devil is "evil". (I'm not getting into anything here, just using it as a very simple example that most people would be familiar with.) --------------------
| |||||||
|
PGF square  Registered: 07/20/00 Posts: 8,642 Loc: Malaysia |
| ||||||
|
Tin Foil: Heavy Duty Reynold's
Wear: Shiny Side out http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html   pets should be protected too, your animals thoughts can destroy you  the enemy beams are beamed from the various monuments and mountains in state parks 
-------------------- ***The Real Shroomery nigger
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Ulysees writes:
"some guy with apparently very stong beliefs and lots of time wrote:" I doubt my beliefs are any stronger than the beliefs of the guy I was responding to. And, it's not so much that I have a lot of time as that I am a VERY fast typer. However, I must admit that I do have enough time to read an entire post before responding to it. "Well, I didn't read anything except that quote, but I'd just like to say that I can decide what's "evil" and what isn't even if that evil didn't do anything to me personally." If you had read more than just the quote, you would have noticed that it was part of a response to ElPrimo's objection to Bush calling the attackers evil. Presumably Bush, like you, also has the ability to decide what is evil. pinky --------------------
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Ulysees writes:
"And if, in a time of desperate need, that evil offered me assistance, I wouldn't hesitate in taking it. If for no other reason then for the simple fact that if I take assistance from the evil, I will still be around tomorrow to fight that evil. It's a pretty simple premise really, I'm astonished at how many people don't understand it." I understand it. It certainly is a simple enough premise to grasp. It even has a name, or several names, depending on the moral stance of the one describing it. Some call it "pragmatism", some call it "compromising one's principles", some call it "hypocrisy". "This is a complicated world. It's not "this + that = clear answer"." Not always, agreed. But sometimes it is exactly that simple, especially once "this" and "that" have been clearly identified. "Open your eyes. People are intelligent, things are complicated, there's no other way." Because things are complicated, posts addressing issues that matter cannot always be held to less than a hundred words. Brevity does not always equal clarity. pinky --------------------
| |||||||
|
Innvertigo Vote Libertarian!! Registered: 02/08/01 Posts: 16,296 Loc: Crackerville, Mi |
| ||||||
|
ha ha ha
you just described Youinfoit!!! -------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
| |||||||
|
Ulysees Power of Lard Registered: 10/06/01 Posts: 5,060 |
| ||||||
|
Wanker.
--------------------
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Nor does brevity always equal accuracy.
pinky --------------------
| |||||||
|
ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Pinky - my comments
SA has a corrupt regime..... I think you may have agreed here but just can't get over the hump to do so in the open... we support them - you agreed here also but have to bring something up about allies and the gulf war in order to cover your tracks and change the subject... LOL Iran more repressive to women than SA - wow, you actually agreed... well, marginally so.. :-) "Excuse me for interpreting your first post as a diatribe against a corrupt regime (Saudi Arabia) that deserves to be removed from power." Yes? So, i think they don't deserve power.. - what's that got to do with the CIA overthrowing them? There are other means to bring about change, - The rest of this goes on - all based on some straw men you set up and then try to knock down....Always avoiding the direct issue. Like saying I expect 'ruthless dictators' to be swayed by 'world opinion' and that America doesn't have the right to 'instill justice'. Where do you get this stuff? The point I was making is that our policies have contributed to the creation of this nightmare and that the best way to prevent these acts from happening has to involve eliminating the creation of the hatred toward us.. Your entire post is full of this diversion crap..... You may stick your nose up at working with other Countries to solve problems, but I don't. The solutions to the Worlds problems and the United States best interests do not always lie with what's economically best for major campaign contributors.. Corporations like RJ Reynolds. - The Republicans masters. Saudi Arabia a terrorist breeding ground..--- I think you agreed again, but you you seem to want to argue about whether I should have said said 'A' prime breeding ground, instead of 'The' Prime breeding ground.. Puh-leeeeze ...The point was made. Specifics??? let's not get too off the subject but here's a couple ---- the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution. There was another instance where the enitire World voted against us and Israel. Something like 151-2. We had veto power, of course. And BTW - Countries don't have to go thru the UN in order to talk and work together. But the UN can be very helpful - for instance, when the war in Afghanistan is over - the UN could see oversee the building back of that Country. There are infrastructure needs that should be established. Mediators to insure the old 'tribal' stuff doesn't flare up. This Country needs help... how else to give it but thru an organization like the UN? Helloooooooo And BTW, the UN would be a lot more effective if the largest Country in the World didn't try and undermine it every chance it gets. If it actually tried to be a World leader, instead of always representing American business interests.. but let's move on "It is not "wrong" that disease exists." Did someone say that? Who said that?...I didn't say that... is this another straw man? And as for all that about Money I told you you'd bring up the 'break the bank' excuse) and AIDs being caused by loose morals and the rest... well, the Conservative US fights the UN when it trys to deliver Condoms and birth control seminars and other things to help control the situation. You know - there are policies and things that can be done which won't cost all that much. We don't have to totally turn our back on every problem. And after all, it isn't as iff ignoring the situation is cheap.... There is also something called World Leadership. And what's all that about it not being Americas fault? Another straw man. A lot of things aren't my fault but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try and help. Especially as it may well be in my best interests to do so. It may not be my fault that the house is on fire but it is in my best interests to help put it out. OK, I'm tired - most of the rest is just more straw men and we don't connect at all on 'evil'.... I just don't understand the word. Horrible, wrong, bad, reprehensible, terrible, sick, insane, etc... all those words I understand. When people say 'evil' I look around for vampires or something. You say - "That's to be expected. As time goes by, the countries where the populace enjoys the most personal freedom increase their wealth, while the countries with the least personal freedom stagnate or regress. The fact that slave societies don't prosper cannot be blamed on free societies. " Get a clue, fellow ... that was the point of most of this discussion... That the United States supports and keeps in power whatever Dictator or group that suits our economic and military objectives. Regardless of how others may suffer because of it. And that a lot of people hate us for doing this. In fact, a recent poll of world leaders found that the majority believed US policy has significantly contributed to the creation of this situation. Capice? Edited by ElPrimo (12/29/01 02:12 AM)
| |||||||
|
MokshaMan enthusiast Registered: 03/12/01 Posts: 280 |
| ||||||
|
>> the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution.
I know that this is off the major subject, but you're absolutely crazy. Go reread that treaty, it's a piece of trash not worthy of being used as toilet tissue. It basicly reassures that more pollution will happen and the the world economy will crumble. Why on earth would you, someone that wants to protect the environment support something that will in no way shape or form do that? What Koyoto will do is send all manufacturing jobs to contries with little or no pollution control where they can pay the workers in chicken feed since they are exempt under the treaty. In other words what's going to happen is that there will be no more well paying manufacturing jobs in developed nations, so the lower classes will have no oppurtunity for upwards mobility. And any company that wants to keep its cost as low as possible will not try to put any pollution prevention in place if the government doesn't force it to, which is what will happen if the jobs go to third world countries. It's crap. Of course all the third world countries are going to support it, they don't have to do anything. BTW Australia has dropped out of Koyoto too. -------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -- George Owell
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
ElPrimo writes:
"SA has a corrupt regime..... I think you may have agreed here but just can't get over the hump to do so in the open..." I agreed that Saudi Arabia's ruling regime is REPRESSIVE. Not everyone does, but I certainly do. They are not "corrupt", though. There is no need for them to be corrupt, since they already hold absolute political power and can do whatever they want within the existing political framework. A "corrupt" politician is one who can be bribed to subvert the existing political process, or one who commits crimes. The repression the Saudis carry out is sanctioned by their political system (Absolute Monarchy) already, and their actions are therefore not considered by them to be criminal, since they (the Royal House of Saud) are by definition above the law. "we support them - you agreed here also but have to bring something up about allies and the gulf war in order to cover your tracks and change the subject..." Hmmm... reviewing the wording of my reply I can see that it does imply that I agree. You were perfectly correct to interpret it that way. I apologize. I fucked up. I did not mean to say that America supports the Saudi regime. I'm sorry to have not been more precise. In actual fact, I do NOT agree. Exactly how does America "support" the Saudi regime? Please be specific. America takes no actions whatsoever to keep the House of Saud in power. The Saudi government protects ITSELF from internal dissent through the use of its own "internal security" police force. They don't need America's (or anyone's) help to stay in control of Saudi Arabia. "There are other means to bring about change, - The rest of this goes on - all based on some straw men youe set up and then try to knock down.... Like saying I expect 'ruthless dictators' to be swayed by 'world opinion' and that America doesn't have the right to 'instill justice'. Where do you get this stuff? Your entire post is full of this crap..... " There may be other means to bring about change, but you have yet to list a single one. So far, the ONLY suggestions you have made to eliminating the repression of Saudi residents are: 1) "I think we should work within the World guidelines we agreed to in the United Nations charter." 2) "What the United States should do is work to instill more justice in the world. Work with our neighbors to try and build a better and fair society." 3) "It is wrong to let ignorance and hatred abound without trying to mediate and work toward resolution. It's called leadership. Like with the Kyoto treaty." No specifics. Just vague generalizations... "work within the World guidelines", "work to instill more justice", "Work with our neighbors", "work toward resolution". Work HOW? Please outline one SPECIFIC action that America can take to decrease the repression of Saudi women. Your phrases are identical to those any politician trying to get re-elected spouts in press conferences... "Once elected I will take steps to correct this or that shameful situation..." WHAT steps? "You may stick your nose up at working with other Countries to solve problems, but I don't." I don't reject the usefulness of "working with other countries to solve problems", but I have a firm enough grasp of reality to realize that there are some countries (like Saudi Arabia) for whom conferences, UN condemnations and diplomatic reprimands mean literally nothing. The Saudis honestly don't even think they HAVE a problem. To them, the way they treat their subjects is the way that subjects SHOULD be treated. "Working with other countries" is only possible if those countries AGREE to work with you. "Saudi Arabia a terrorist breeding ground..--- I think you agreed again, but you you seem to want to argue about whether I should have said said 'A' prime breeding ground, instead of 'The' Prime breeding ground.. Puh-leeeeze" Excuse me for insisting on clarity. You know as well as I do that changing a single word in a sentence (just as I mistakenly implied that I agreed with you on the "support" issue) can alter its meaning radically. The topic being discussed here is an important one. It's not as if we are trying to decide if a Whopper is better than a Big Mac. If what you write is not what you mean to say, don't object to people interpreting it as it is written, correct the mistaken impression instead. I still disagree that "Saudi Arabia is THE prime breeding ground for terrorists". As it is written, the sentence implies that Saudi Arabia produces more terrorists than any other country. Anyone conversant with the English language would interpret it as I did. "Specifics??? let's not get too off the subject but here's a couple ---- the Kyoto Treaty... a perfect example of letting short term corporate business interest override an important and necessary step toward controlling pollution." You used this same red herring earlier. The Kyoto Treaty has nothing to do with the repression of internal dissent, hence is completely irrelevant to the topic that YOU introduced... America's alleged "support" of a "corrupt" regime. "And BTW - Countries don't have to go thru the UN in order to talk and work together." Of course they don't. But they DO have to agree to seriously address the issue being talked about. The Saudis won't. To them, the way they treat their women (as a single specific example) is a non-issue. They don't understand what all the fuss is about, and dismiss out of hand any suggestions that they may want to rethink their position. This intransigence on their part has been reported many times, by the way, by women's groups and human rights organizations. I am not making this up. The Saudi government quite simply refuses to listen, even to America. "And the UN would be a lot more effective if the largest Country in the World didn't try and undermine it every chance it gets." America is neither the largest country in the world nor the most populous. And America HARDLY tries to undermine the UN "every chance it gets". You would have a better chance of convincing the readers of this thread of the validity of your opinions if you would get your facts straight and avoid exaggeration. "And as for all that about Money and AIDs and the rest... well, the Conservative US fights the UN when it trys to deliver Condoms and birth control seminars and other things to help control the situation." Not so. The American government does not try to prevent the UN from providing condoms and birth control seminars to Africans. Where did you get this idea? Please provide a single credible source to support this allegation. Some individual members of Congress DO however feel that American taxpayers should not be charged an unlimited amount of money to provide these services to other countries. "We don't have to totally turn our back on every problem." America hardly turns its back on every problem. America spends more money on AIDS research than any other country. America provides more money in foreign aid than the rest of the world combined. "And what's all that about it not being Americas fault? Another straw man. A lot of things aren't my fault but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try and help." But America DOES help those countries who are in a bind through no fault of America's. No other country in the world does as much as America does to help others. Foreign aid in the form of cash. Disaster relief in the form of food and medical supplies. Military support to allies threatened with invasion. Development loans (many of which are never repaid) to improve agriculture, create infrastructure, improve education, develop natural resources, jumpstart essential industries. Supervision of free elections.... I'm sure there are other actions America takes that I am missing here. "we don't connect at all on 'evil'.... I just don't understand the word. Horrible, wrong, bad, reprehensible, terrible, sick, insane, etc... all those words I understand. When people say 'evil' I look around for vampires or something." You don't understand the definition of "evil"? Open any dictionary. Let's look at the Oxford Dictionary of Current English: evil - morally bad, wicked: harmful, tending to harm. Hmmm... nothing about vampires or other supernatural entities in THAT definition. "... that was the point of most of this discussion... That the United States supports and keeps in power whatever Dictator or group that suits our economic and military objectives." There is an enormous difference between "supporting and keeping in power" a particular government and refraining from actively overthrowing it. I repeat, the USA takes not a single action to further the continuance of the House of Saud. Zip. Bupkes. Nada. The Saudi royal family doesn't NEED the USA to take any action to keep them in power. pinky --------------------
Edited by pinksharkmark (12/29/01 04:38 AM)
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
MokshaMan writes:
"I know that this is off the major subject, but you're absolutely crazy. Go reread that treaty, it's a piece of trash not worthy of being used as toilet tissue. It basicly reassures that more pollution will happen and the the world economy will crumble." You are absolutely correct. There was an excellent series of thoughtful, well-researched articles in the Ottawa Citizen a few weeks ago examining Canada's inability to fulfill the obligations of this treaty. Although not all of the other developed nations have admitted it yet, they are all in the same bind as Canada. Using the technology available today, or technology likely to be available within the next decade or two, the Kyoto Treaty is pure fantasy. The way the Kyoto Treaty is written, it is impossible for ANY developed nation, particularly a nation where there are sub-freezing temperatures for part of the year, to come anywhere close to meeting the terms of the treaty without commiting to an enormous investment in nuclear power. Even then, it would be impossible to get sufficient power plants constructed in time to meet the deadlines specified in the treaty. "...what's going to happen is that there will be no more well paying manufacturing jobs in developed nations, so the lower classes will have no oppurtunity for upwards mobility." Agreed. Not only that, but the flight of manufacturing companies and the attendant loss of jobs will mean even less tax revenue with which to subsidize a crash nuclear program. Nuke plants ain't cheap. "Of course all the third world countries are going to support it, they don't have to do anything." Yep. "BTW Australia has dropped out of Koyoto too. " They won't be the last to do so. You can bet your life's savings on that. And those developed nations who don't officially drop out won't be able to meet the guidelines anyway. Canada certainly won't. pinky --------------------
| |||||||
|
ElPrimo journeyman Registered: 09/29/01 Posts: 92 Last seen: 21 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
A couple of points, Pinky.
First, While I generally try and avoid any wording that could be termed imprecise, I find your tactic of nitpicking to be little more than avoiding the subject... As an example, when I reference that the UN would be more effective is the US didn't constantly try and undermine it, you choose to jump on the fact that I said the 'Largest Country'. Obviouly the US is not the largest Country.. I should have said the most Powerful Country. Or the Country with the Largest economy. However, the fact that we are very large and powerful and that we undermine the UN is what the post was about... It was in refernece to your stating that the UN hadn't done much... But it seems to be easier for you to nitpick wording than address the point at hand.. SA is corrupt... Should I say ' Morally Corrupt'? Does that make you feel better? One of the definitions of corrupt is taking bribes... This is a standard practice in SA. (another definition is evil) My point about the word evil is that people use it to stop discussion and that both sides use it about the other... It is used to de-humanize the opponent and therefore dismiss any attempt to try and understand his motivations... I wuill concede that I am not sure what the per capita income is of the average SA citizen. Or what they may or not possess in the way of health care, etc. It may well be that they are better off than most and are just surrounded by millions who are poor, etc. The fact is, the terrorists weren't poor trod upon individuals.. most were educated and capable. I don't want to argue about the Kyoto treaty... That's not for here. Let me just say that no treaty is perfect and we must start somewhere. Canada competes with the US... If the US doesn't follow the treaty on items such as fishing and Ocean management, hoiw can other Countries do so? This is an example of how the US is able to dominate and set World policy. Something we usually only do when our corporate business intersts are at stake... items like democracy, freedoms, human suffering... these all take a back seat... Finally let me remind you of all the Conservative bellyaching about America trying to help out in the European theatre... what with Bosnia and Serbia.. Didn't we send troops? Didn't we work with the UN? Isn't that situation better now than before? AND didn't most conservatives harass Clinton about it? Always demanding an 'EXIT STRATEGY', etc. Pray tell where is the US Exit Strategy for Afghanistan?? I see we are now sending in the 101st Airborne... My discussions here are that we would do well to work with the UN and other Countries to help resolve the conflicts in the Middle east and elsewhere. To think that the solution is to just exercise military might is nearsighted and while it will hopefully disrupt the Al Quaida organization, it will do little to stop the zealot hatred toward us.. As far as your 'specifics'... you just want something to throw stones at... nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try. It is always easier to point out why things won't work or pick at people who question the way things are... And I believe Al Gore would have done as well or better than GW. This excercise isn't over yet... and right now everyone is expected to wave a flag. But time will tell. What is going to be done about Iraq???? ... Do you propose we invade there as well??
| |||||||
|
Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
ElPrimo writes:
"...the fact that we are very large and powerful and that we undermine the UN is what the post was about... It was in refernece to your stating that the UN hadn't done much... " I merely pointed out (correctly) that all the United Nations CAN do in a situation like this is to issue condemnations, which are then ignored by the offending party. So far the UN hasn't even done that. "But it seems to be easier for you to nitpick wording than address the point at hand.. " You said that the US "undermines" (exactly HOW does the US do this, by the way?) the UN "every chance it gets". I replied that this was an exaggeration. I haven't changed my mind. "One of the definitions of corrupt is taking bribes... This is a standard practice in SA." It is not standard practice by the ruling House of Saud. They don't take bribes. They don't NEED to take bribes because they are richer than Croesus. "I wuill concede that I am not sure what the per capita income is of the average SA citizen. Or what they may or not possess in the way of health care, etc. It may well be that they are better off than most and are just surrounded by millions who are poor, etc." If you had referred to those surrounding millions rather than to Saudi citizens my response would have been different. "I don't want to argue about the Kyoto treaty... That's not for here." Agreed. "... what with Bosnia and Serbia.. Didn't we send troops? Didn't we work with the UN?" America did in fact "work with the UN" in that situation. But the example you cite has no relevance to your beef with Saudi repression, since the UN approach (if any) to ending repression in Saudi Arabia does not involve sending in troops. To my knowledge, the UN has yet to even bother to file a single protest against the treatment of Saudi citizens by its government. "My discussions here are that we would do well to work with the UN and other Countries to help resolve the conflicts in the Middle east and elsewhere." But America HAS done just that. Remember Camp David? Remember the support given to Nasser by America? Kissinger's seemingly endless "shuttle diplomacy" efforts? The encouragement given to Jordan's King Hussein? The sessions with Arafat? Did I just dream all these things or did they really take place? And I repeat yet again... resolve HOW? Words don't work. There has been a wealth of words, decades of discussion, and rivers of resolutions expended on the Middle East and that part of the world is STILL fucked. "...the word evil... is used to de-humanize the opponent and therefore dismiss any attempt to try and understand his motivations... " The motivations of some people are beyond the understanding of rational humans. What motivated Ted Bundy? Besides, in the case of those who choose violence as their preferred method of human interaction, motive is of secondary concern at best. What MATTERS is the ACT. This is why it is not necessary to know the motive of a murderer in order to convict him of murder in any court of law in any country in the world. "As far as your 'specifics'... you just want something to throw stones at... nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try." -- -- -- "I find your tactic of nitpicking to be little more than avoiding the subject..." I think the other readers of these posts can decide exactly who is avoiding the subject here. I have answered every one of your questions fully, and am quite prepared to have you throw stones at me. I have invariably found that when someone says "nothing I could say would be acceptable so I am not going to try", the real meaning is "I can't refute your point but I won't admit it." Besides, what makes you think I only want to throw stones at your solutions? Offer me a solution and see. I freely admit that I am too stupid to come up with a solution to the Saudi government's repression of its populace that involves anything less than the overthrow of the House of Saud. So far you haven't offered a single VIABLE alternative to my suggestion... just ranted that America's course of action is wrong and that somehow a UN resolution might one day make a gang of chauvinist authoritarian misogynists "see the light" and reform their ways. As I said before, I find your faith in the essential goodness of brutal thugs to be quite touching. "What is going to be done about Iraq???? ... Do you propose we invade there as well??" That question has nothing to do with the way Saudi Arabia treats its citizens, but I'll answer it anyway. I see no reason today to invade Iraq. pinky --------------------
Edited by pinksharkmark (01/01/02 01:32 AM)
| |||||||
| |||||||
Edit 
Reply 
| Shop: Kratom Capsules for Sale North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies Substrate Bags Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order High THC Strains Buy Kratom Extract |
|
| Similar Threads | Poster | Views | Replies | Last post | ||
 |
 |
Confessions of an Anti-Sanctions Activist |  wingnutx |
1,066 | 2 | 01/29/14 04:52 AM by theindianrepublic |
|
|
Hard Choices for the Environmental Movement |  trendal |
1,205 | 5 | 03/17/13 07:25 PM by starfire_xes |
|
 |
Letter from Marc Emery (Pot Activist face US extradition) (  1 2 all ) |
 Swami |
4,336 | 21 | 01/24/14 11:18 PM by Methodology |
|
|
New inquiry into Pat Tillman's death. |  afoaf |
1,626 | 16 | 10/03/05 10:04 AM by YidakiMan |
|
|
peace activists gonna get head chopped off ( 1 2 all ) |
 looner2 |
3,287 | 38 | 12/02/05 04:14 PM by Twirling |
|
|
The East Turkistan Islamic Movement. |  The_Red_Crayon |
863 | 3 | 01/05/07 08:47 PM by The_Red_Crayon |
|
|
Blacks urged to form independent political movement |  lonestar2004 |
1,185 | 10 | 06/09/05 12:30 PM by Silversoul |
|
 |
Activists find tracking systems on their cars ( 1 2 3 all ) |
 Learyfan |
3,740 | 43 | 02/23/08 01:08 PM by Luddite |
| Extra information | ||
| You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa 5,665 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum. [ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ] | ||