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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate?
    #4922174 -

My friend and I followed Doc's Birdseed Tek, and the majority of the WBS exploded during PC. They were fine before, but after putting the jar in the PC and PC at 15psi for an hour, the majority of the seeds in the jar were broke open. Will this seriously inhibit our efforts? or will it be ok? I don't even trip very often, but the whole process seems interesting to me...Thanks in advance for the help

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: snippets60]
    #4922224 -

I'm guessing besides the exploded grain there is a white goo around the seeds?

If so, this is starch. No good. I inoculated a couple of jars that had done almost the same as yours. I got myc growth, but it would not colonize the starch covered grains (in your case it wouldn't colonize that split grains) and you'd never achieve 100% colonization, which we all know is a NO NO.

Just my 2cents


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P. Cubensis Growth Parameters
"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: jarroddupont]
    #4922344 -

Out of curiousity, if your bird seed explodes and you still manage to get partial colonization, could the partial colonization be used to make an LC? Or would the starch get in the way?


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You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: wiggles]
    #4922362 -

I would just use it for a G2G transfer.


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Quick WBS Prep

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: snippets60]
    #4922766 -

Don't waste your time, or spores on it. Start over. I don't simmer WBS.


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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: agar]
    #4923028 -

You don't simmer agar?

Could you explain why you don't, and what your process is? I use WBS sometimes and I would love to hear your process...


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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: Prajna]
    #4925274 -

WBS doesn't need to be simmered because the soak by itself adds all the moisture needed and at the same time helps endospores germinate. The PC takes care of the rest.

I use Pennington's wild bird seed. What I do is bring a large pot of water to a rolling boil, turn off the stove and dump the bird seed into the water. I put the lid on and let it sit for 45min to an hour covered. This seems to hydrate the seeds plenty. I strain the seeds for about a half hour or more, dump them in the jars and PC. It works for me, but I'm sure someone will have a negative opinion on that method.


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Quick WBS Prep

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: FooMan]
    #4925294 -

Interesting FooMan, and thanks for answering. I have always simmered just because I always thought it was necessary. Next batch I'll skip it and see how it works out.

I have never had a problem but it is sort of a pain in the ass to get rid of all the exploded grain.

I notice that the simmer is where I get the most "bloat", sometimes I wonder if it's too much hydration. I've taken to adding verm to my jars lately because even after draining they are just too wet.

Maybe if I skip the simmer I can skip the verm, which makes it harder to look in for growth, which has become my favorite pastime...lol


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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: snippets60]
    #4925299 -

I have simmered wbs before and have had success. The only problem I have found with simmering though is....if you do it for just a bit too long.... or the water gets just a bit too hot.....you get mush.

So it really isn't worth it IMO. It's too hit or miss.

What I have found that really helps, is to put the WBS in a bin and fill that bin with some hot water. After about every 5 hours or so I would dump the water and add more hot water. They seem to get hydrated very quickly this way, and you don't have to worry about the seeds exploding on you.

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4925801 -

Well, if you simmer just long enough for the grains to explode about 5% or less, you will achieve optimum moisture content.

I can't stress this enough, but, I will state it again for those who don't know.

SIMMERING:

  Simmering is done for 1 reason and 1 reason only = To hydrate the WBS to it's maximum.
When you simmer the WBS you are forcing it to absorb as much water as it can possibly hold without bursting.
  In order for you to do that, you would have to know the exact amount of water that each individual grain can hold. There is no possible way for us to do that unless we test each individual grain. Each grain will hold a different amount of water = NO TWO GRAINS ARE ALIKE.
  So, if you add the water and the grain to a jar and PC it(this tek does work, btw), you are guessing that the optimum amount of water that the grain can hold, is the amount that you put into the jar-no more, no less. You may get a few jars 'perfect' from time to time-but, it is still just a guess. NO TWO GRAINS ARE ALIKE, therefore no two grains will hold the exact same amount of water.
  If you soak only(this tek works also), you are forced to use the grain before it is at it's maximum moisture content due to the fact that the grain will ferment or rot before it is at it's max(have you ever seen a grain 'burst' due to just soaking alone? Me neither.). Just how long do you soak to gain optimum moisture content? 24, 36, 48, 60, 72 hours? Each grain is different, therefore each grain has to soak longer/lesser to achieve this. 'Fermentation' or 'Rot' will set in before every grain is at it's maximum water content.

  Now, if you soak for only 8-14 hours, you are soaking just long enough for the endospores to germinate, but not long enough for the grains to start fermenting or rotting. They may absorb some water during this soak-but that is not it's purpose.
  After soaking for 8-14 hours(overnight works just fine)you should rinse the grains thouroughly. This removes any and all unwanted additives and cleans the grains.
  Simmering the grains for 15-30 minutes(There shouldn't be a set time limit on simmering), or until you see the first of the grains explode(this would be your 5%), forces each individual grain to absorb it's maximum amount of water, before it explodes. This is 'Optimum' moisture content.
  Each grain is simmered up to the point of 'bursting'. It can't hold anymore water or it will burst. If it can't hold anymore water-it is at it's maximum moisture content. If it bursts, it has had too much water. You can't get any closer unless you test each grain for it's maximum water holding capacity, then dry that grain, then re-hydrate that grain, adding the amount of water that is needed for that grain to be at it's maximum. And repeat for each grain used. That would take forever wouldn't it?

  Then you should rinse thouroughly again to remove the starches that has accumilated during the simmering process and to clean the grains a little more. You can't get the grains 'clean' enough. This rinse will remove that 'gel-like' substance(starches) from the grains and keep them from being a big goey clump when done.
  You should also use cold water during this rinse to stop the grains from bursting any further and to keep the grains from drying out somewhat due to evaporation of moisture caused by the hot temps, during the draining process.
  When you drain, you should do it long enough so that all of the excess water is gone. Meaning, that if you shake the strainer/colander, there shouldn't be any water at all drip from it.
  This is where most people come up with 'wet' jars. They do not drain long enough. Also, the grains on top will be more dryer than the grains on the bottom of the strainer/colander. If you look at the grains on the bottom of the strainer, they will still be soaking wet. Unlike the ones on top, which appear to be dry. So make sure that the grains are completly drained. I sometimes even take my WBS and put it on a screen to drain. I spread it out evenly and thin, so that all of them drain thouroughly.

After draining thouroughly, Pressure cook the grains for at least an hour. I do it for at least 1 1/2 hours to ensure their sterility.
As soon as the PC vents itself(de-pressurizes), you should remove the jars(carefully-they are extremely hot)and shake the crap out of them. This re-distributes the wet grains at the bottom with the dry grains at the top of the jars, making them uniform through-out the jar.
Let them cool and then inoculate them.

I hope people can understand the effectiveness of simmering now. If you take a look at my grows, you will see the benefits of simmering and the results that I have gotten everytime I do it.. I use nothing at all to add moisture to my casings other than misting with a spray bottle. No Verm or Coir is added to the bottom for extra moisture.
  I have never had a wet/dry or a stalled jar using my method and by simmering. I have had 100% success by doing this. The times that I failed were when I was attempting to use other methods of preparation = Soaking and no simmer or adding the water and grain to a jar and then PC'ing.
  I would get wet or dry jars when I added the water & grain then pc'd(every now and again I would get them just perfect). Don't get me wrong, they would work just fine, but, I wouldn't get the same results as I do with simmering. That's why I still, to this day, use simmering as my way of hydrating the grains.

My two pennies


Doc


:cool: :thumbup:


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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: doc34]
    #4925812 -

I believe you doc, I believe you!

I think my way of doing it as stated above works just as well. I would call it more of a "steam" than a "simmer". Bring the water to a boil (with no seeds). Turn off stove once it's boiling and dump your seed in and cover it. The trapped steam inside keeps it really hot for over an hour, which I've found is just about the perfect amount of time. I get virtually zero bursted seeds and trust me, they are fully hydrated. This eliminates the need to stir the seed or adjust the heat. You just set it and forget it! Damn infomercials! :grin:


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Quick WBS Prep

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: doc34]
    #12190882 -

So what would cause bird seed to explode in the pressure cooker other than simmering too long? Even with a towel between the jars and the bottom of the pressure cooker, and simmering for no more than 30 minutes, the grains still seem to explode around the bottom of the jar.

EDIT: Also, are split grains really a problem? I've read conflicting reports, it seems sometimes colonization is fine and others the starch causes it to stall.

Edited by SWreallyIM1337 (03/12/10 03:17 PM)

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: SWreallyIM1337]
    #12198056 -

You didnt let the grain dry enough before putting them in jars. When you PCed the extra water was absorbed. If the jars shake and the grains are loose then they will probably colonize fine. If they are mushy and stick together they are to wet and I wouldnt use them. Read through my How I Do Grain link in my sig for some tips for next time.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #12198421 -

This is a 5 year old thread.....

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Re: Experts please....Exploded Bird Seed...should i still inoculate? [Re: GrassRackets]
    #12198769 -

GrassRackets said:
This is a 5 year old thread.....


Yeah but it is exactly relevant to the situation. The age doesn't make it less useful. Thanks for the reply scatman, exactly the info needed.

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