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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: looner2]
    #4778653 -

An attempt at searching for truth is the same as searching for truth. Did you possibly mean searching for truth that may not or can not ever be found?

Edited by MJF (10/09/05 07:55 PM)

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778680 -

Diploid said:
What if you hold on to beliefs that make you happy and help you succeed in life, but they are irrational? What if rational beliefs would derail you into unhappiness?

Belief in irrational falsehoods are always wrong.

It's belief in irrational falsehoods that have us in the Iraq quagmire.

It's irrational falsehoods that are at the foundation of drug prohibition around the world.

It's irrational falsehoods the egg on those who blow themselves up in crowds of innocent bystanders in the middle east.

It's irrational falsehoods that fated Galileo to life in prison for stating the obvious.

It's irrational falsehoods that permitted Ms. Cleo to make a fortune until she got too greedy.

The list goes on and on...


No, the list doesn't go on, because you pointed out a fundamental error in trying to relate scientific rationalism... debunking mystics, slaying homeopathy...etc with applied rationalism to world events, politics, and history.

It is impossible to apply scientific rationalism to those things because humans by nature are not rational. There is also a problem applying reductionist thought to complicated patterns that encompasss millions of people, hundreds of nations, and the force of history.

But even all this doesn't directly relate to the fundmentals of this thread and the forum. It has been said it is for individual growth, and holding irrational beliefs surely can lead to individual greatness.

How about Patton for instance?

Could it be fathomed that his irrational beliefs in reincarnation. His obsession that he was a the reincarnated Hannibal could have very well drove him to succeed? Using motivation as being one of the greatest generals ever surely could have contributed to his own boldness, strategic thinking, and sheer tenacity that is attributed to him.


When all is said and done, no one cares about Pattons reincarnation beliefs... what they will always remember is that he achieved greatness, and that is the whole point of "individual growth" is it not?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778725 -

Diploid said:
for example prove that an all loving God would not create a world where a children die of leukemia, you cannot

Ultimately, nothing can be proved.

But, in a philosophical (or spiritual) context, it can be shown that there is a contradiction in an all-loving God who visits horrible illness and death upon innocent children.

Not proof, but certainly enough to shake the God belief-system of anyone honestly seeking Truth.

Those seeking justification of their beliefs rather than Truth at this point start calling me a jerk or an asshole or wonder publicly about how my mother didn't hug me enough, then they start PMing the mods. :shrug:


umm, i have never called you an asshole or PMed a mod. if people do that it's merely a result of their own lack of maturity. i still don't think there is necessarily a logical contradiction there though, certainly an important question to be answered but no necessary logical contradiction. if the person's veiw includes some type of belief in reincarnation its possible that children with diseases are souls who choose to come to earth to experience that disease because that is what they needed to further their spiritual growth. its possible they came to earth to take on the karma of other people or aid other people in spiritual growth by demonstrating how someone can rise above even the worst circumstances. of course you can say there is no scientific or empirical evidence for such ideas but the point is that there is no necessary logical contradiction between an all loving God and a child suffering.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Deviate]
    #4778806 -

umm, i have never called you an asshole or PMed a mod

I wasn't referring to you, but if you look around, you'll find several recent threads where others have called me all sorts of names when I questioned their beliefs.

if the person's veiw includes some type of belief in reincarnation its possible that children with diseases are souls who choose to come to earth to experience that disease

You can make up anything you like, but it will not hold up to scrutiny if you're genuinely looking for the truth and not just making up implausible things to back your beliefs.

Truth does not need to be backed up with invented stories. Truth's veracity is usually obvious once you drop the irrelevancies.

there is no necessary logical contradiction between an all loving God and a child suffering

Yes there is. An all loving (and omnipotent) God could (since he can do anything) make it so that reincarnated entity could gain the same appreciation for the decease without experiencing it. If God can do anything, then God can make it so the end result of a child suffering leukemia will come to be without the child suffering leukemia.

See the contradiction? If God cannot make the end result WITHOUT the suffering, then he is not omnipotent. And if he can make the end result without the suffering, and he does not, he is not all loving.

All this aside, my point is that you have to invent a convoluted, complicated, and v-e-r-y implausible set of circumstances to justify a belief in an all-loving yet leukemia-creating God. Or you can just accept the much more reasonable conclusion that there is no God.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/10/05 12:45 PM)

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778849 -

to say that there is no God is just as irrational. I think it would be better to say what God is that you believe doesn't exist. Also....how do you know God doesn't make the end result like you stated it would be if he (poor word) was an All-loving (also it should be stated what all loving means when talking about God) God.

Also do you think you would posses the amount of knowledge that this hypothetical God you speak of would posses? What if it turns out that suffering in that way is actually good when talking about the ends of a mean....and that it is in fact part of his all lovingness (to make them suffer).

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778864 -

Yeah.. but God isn't stupid. If there was no suffering, there would be no growth. Death is a part of life, deal with it. I see much more logical evidence of an existence of God than none at all. You can't point at children suffering from leukemia as evidence of a lack of God, that's ridiculous. Don't pretend to know the mind of God, and what he/she could do.. doesn't mean that he should.


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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: MJF]
    #4778870 -

to say that there is no God is just as irrational

About as irrational as saying there is no Tooth Fairy.

Also do you think you would posses the amount of knowledge that this hypothetical God you speak of would posses? What if it turns out that suffering in that way is actually good when talking about the ends of a mean....and that it is in fact part of his all lovingness (to make them suffer)

Everything is possible.

It is possible that God is actually a giant nose and the universe was sneezed out one day 15 billion years ago.

It is possible that God is actually a Giant Spaghetti Monster and leukemia is a by-product of the sauce.

You can go on and on...

Basing your world view on these ideas is at least as reasonable that of an all-loving God who visits horrible diseases on children because they are actually reincarnated entities who went out of their way to experience such suffering (and by the way cause the unwitting suffering of their parents who didn't ask for it).

You can make up any manor of wild explanations for why God inflicts suffering on his loved ones, or you can accept the simple, straight forward, perfectly plausible explanation that there is no God. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Shroomism]
    #4778875 -

:thumbup:

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778889 -

Diploid....my idea of God is the same as my idea of the universe. Those ideas include mystery and the unkown.

Is that an irrational idea about there being God?

Edited by MJF (10/09/05 08:56 PM)

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: MJF]
    #4778893 -

No.. that's about as irrational as saying there is no such thing as the Red Cross, because people are starving in Somalia.


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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Shroomism]
    #4778903 -

Whoa..I'm confused about which post you are responding to.

edi: nvm I get it now.  :grin:

Edited by MJF (10/09/05 08:54 PM)

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: MJF]
    #4778925 -

Diploid....my idea of God is the same as my idea of the universe. Those ideas include mystery and the unkown.

It that an irrational idea about there being God?

No, but that's not what we're discussing.

Stating that something is unknown and that there are many mysteries in the universe is different than stating that you don't know where the universe came from so God must have done it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Shroomism]
    #4778931 -

Yeah.. but God isn't stupid. If there was no suffering, there would be no growth.

Then he's not omnipotent for if he was, he could make it so that there could be growth without suffering.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4778970 -

or maybe there is just a better reason you can't think of why he wouldn't do it your way.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: MJF]
    #4778985 -

or maybe there is just a better reason you can't think of why he wouldn't do it your way

Again, I concede that this may be the case, but I also point out that this is another complicated convolution to justify belief when a simple, straight-forward explanation is staring you in the face.

This rigidity is the hallmark of non-spirituality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: Diploid]
    #4779042 -

this is ridiculous...

cutting a coin in half doesn't make you richer

I'm out for six months or so, cya :cool:


--------------------


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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4779903 -

itstarssaddam said:
What if someone comes into the Spirituality and Mysticism forum and starts making logical statements? Will this be grounds for banning?


SkorpivoMusterion said:
No, most likely, it will be so foreign to them, that it'll just be a mystery as to what you're saying. This will result in them creating their own fantastical conclusions and forming elaborate belief systems revolving around something you never said in the first place.




this forum split is money. it seems like we might actually be able to get some critiquing of irrational ideas done now, without having to worry about being called a flamer.

so now, ill be able to just tell someone that theyre being irrational and thatll be it. good.

it also seems from this specific thread that people true colors might be coming out a bit... its a great thing.

lets expose the irrational for what they are...people who hold false concepts that prohibit them from promoting their own lives.

-nonick

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: nonick]
    #4779911 -

uhhh sorry i dont know why my text is red. i tried to change it to black but im not sure what im doing wrong...it didnt work

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: deff]
    #4779941 -

"You can make up anything you like, but it will not hold up to scrutiny if you're genuinely looking for the truth and not just making up implausible things to back your beliefs.

Truth does not need to be backed up with invented stories. Truth's veracity is usually obvious once you drop the irrelevancies.

there is no necessary logical contradiction between an all loving God and a child suffering

Yes there is. An all loving (and omnipotent) God could (since he can do anything) make it so that reincarnated entity could gain the same appreciation for the decease without experiencing it. If God can do anything, then God can make it so the end result of a child suffering leukemia will come to be without the child suffering leukemia.

See the contradiction? If God cannot make the end result WITHOUT the suffering, then he is not omnipotent. And if is can make the end result without the suffering, and he does not, he is not all loving.

All this aside, my point is that you have to invent a convoluted, complicated, and v-e-r-y implausible set of circumstances to justify a belief in an all-loving yet leukemia-creating God. Or you can just accept the much more reasonable conclusion that there is no God.

excelent points. this is exactly the logic i used to reject the notion of God. however let give you my perspective. there have been one or two occasions where i have experienced what i consider to be God. i don't want to go into too much detail describing these experiences because they i find it very difficult to do them justice. however i'm sure they were not some kind of delusion but rather that if anything they were more like the freedom from delusion (everything made logical sense and there was understanding, i finally understood what was in front of my face like never before). to this day i have kept a degree of that awareness and there is not a single moment in which i am not aware to some degree of what i call God. so it is logical for me to believe in God (God is just a word, what i really believe in is my experience of how reality is) but i feel justified in using the word God because my experiences matches the descriptions of what God is given by many other people (so its reasonable to assume we experienced the same phenomenon). it matches the descriptions of enlightenment and the descriptions of what God is given by indian sages and makes sense in accordance with the sayings of jesus and buddha. it matches the descriptions of the cosmic consciousness or christ consciousness ive seen described by many people on this very message board. so anyway now i have this phenomenon to think about, ive assigned metaphysical interpretations to it but i'm not going to claim my metaphysical interpretations are right, all i ask is that other people recognize that this phenomenon, that this mysytery state of awareness exists and that it cannot be fully understood from the outside. you are free to come up with your own interpretation. my point here is that its not logical for me say "God doesn't exist" because there is some seeming logical flaw in the metaphyiscal interpretation.

as an example lets say hundreds of years ago you traveled from africa to america where you saw hummingbirds and then you traveled back to africa. when you got back to africa you found that the scientists and philosophers of your time had proven hummingbirds didn't exist. they had shown that with their understanding of aerodynamics a bird with such a tiny wing could not attain enough lift to fly and therefore logically could not exist. would you stop believing in hummingbirds? or would you conclude that there must be some flaw in the logic, some peice of information being overlooked?

so as you can see, rather than conclude God doesn't exist, the challenge for me is finding some way of fitting things together.

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Re: so is spirituality not welcomed here anymore [Re: nonick]
    #4780242 -

nonick said:
uhhh sorry i dont know why my text is red.  i tried to change it to black but im not sure what im doing wrong...it didnt work

Skorpivo's pre-sig tag strikes again! :shiftyeyes:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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