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InvisibleSwami
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My sister-in law has cancer...
    #4669741 - 09/16/05 02:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

... and my brother is freaking out. That's natural you say?

He is an evangelical born-again Baptist and has devoted his life to God's will. Isn't the "normal" distraught, hand-wringing and wailing reaction a display of the total lack of faith in God's plan and of an eternal paradise awaiting?

My point being that if one's philosophy or religion falls flat when needed, then it is useless and the "practitioner" doesn't even believe what they are preaching. Both of their kids "want" (read: have been brainwashed) to be missionaries.

Note: I am far from unsympathetic to their plight.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/16/05 04:03 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4669754 - 09/16/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

:wtf:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4669756 - 09/16/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

The idea that those who have utter faith in God's will, and belief that he is omniscient, continue to pray for things in their life to be different has always seemed contradictory to me.

If He knows what he's doing, and knows what is happening in your life, why pray for something else?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Veritas]
    #4669770 - 09/16/05 02:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

In the book "Way of the Peaceful Warrior", one of the main zen-like characters loses his uninsured restaurant in a fire. He cries and grieves for a moment then let's go of the event and returns to a happy state. Meanwhile, his less centered friend feels worse than ever for him and believes that the sense of loss should be carried far into the future.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4669778 - 09/16/05 02:58 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I understand that you are not unsympathetic, and you are correct. Every Christian I have ever known well freaked out when tragedy occured. They acted like some huge mistake had been made in the heavenly book keepting.

It's the acid test of ones beliefs. We will all have to go through it and one may not be able to say for sure what our reaction will be until we have the experience. Unless of course you have taken lots of huge doses of psychedelics and have faced your egos demise many times. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4669794 - 09/16/05 03:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
In the book "Way of the Peaceful Warrior", one of the main zen-like characters loses his uninsured restaurant in a fire. He cries and grieves for a moment then let's go of the event and returns to a happy state. Meanwhile, his less centered friend feels worse than ever for him and believes that the sense of loss should be carried far into the future.




The Warriors way.  :thumbup: He allows himself to feel everything completely. Yet he is the observer also and is not attached to himself. He lets his emotions flow freely and so they pass quickly as happens with a child. Soon the sun comes out from behind the cloud. I have witnessed this in a special friend of mine. He is a true warrior and a constant inspirition for me on my path. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Icelander]
    #4669795 - 09/16/05 03:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

it is natural - we do get cancer -
we need to learn who we are

otherwise the world is a stage
and going on strike is not an option to the players on it.

be there for them as they crumble and rebuild on the ruins


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Icelander]
    #4669811 - 09/16/05 03:06 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

They acted like some huge mistake had been made in the heavenly book keepting.

Good line.  :thumbup:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4669945 - 09/16/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

They're just words anyway. When you get down to their humanity, religious people are often no different than atheists, except atheists are usually more logical. :wink:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Ravus]
    #4669970 - 09/16/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Those words are connected to feeling states. There are two ways to experience the events of our lives , fear and love. Choose, and then experience.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4670015 - 09/16/05 03:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Some people make their "peace" in different ways, for some it is thru religion that helps them thru to find that peace.... Some find hope in all of the miracles written in the Bible....

My uncle passed away a few weeks ago from his battle with cancer.... He got lots of moral support from the people of his church while he was suffering, and that worked for him to help him thru....

What ever peaceful beliefs makes you happy, or let you deal with a painful end - there is no harm in it....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4670078 - 09/16/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"if one's philosophy or religion falls flat when needed, then it is useless and the "practioner" doesn't even believe what they are preaching"

Right you are Swami. What use is having a personal religion or philosophy if it has no practical value? Don't cling to the past, and always look to the future....even if that future contains death. Accept the inevitable and rejoice in what life you do have.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Icelander]
    #4670254 - 09/16/05 04:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Those words are connected to feeling states. There are two ways to experience the events of our lives , fear and love. Choose, and then experience.




Fear and love, black and white. I choose whichever one helps me at the moment.

The only duality in our lives is life and death. Everything else has subjective shades of gray, and should be exploited as tools for survival. Both fear and love can serve us, as can any other emotion or word or concept.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Ravus]
    #4670263 - 09/16/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

How does fear help you in situations which are not life-and-death? The fight-or-flight response seems fairly useless in modern life, and often appears to hinder us poor humans in accomplishing our dreams and goals.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4670289 - 09/16/05 04:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Tragedies are where faith is tested the most. After natural disasters, there is often a tendency to either become more religious or abandon one's faith and curse God. It seems like your brother is going more towards the latter, whether he recognizes it or not.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Ravus]
    #4670315 - 09/16/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Those words are connected to feeling states. There are two ways to experience the events of our lives , fear and love. Choose, and then experience.




Fear and love, black and white. I choose whichever one helps me at the moment.

The only duality in our lives is life and death. Everything else has subjective shades of gray, and should be exploited as tools for survival. Both fear and love can serve us, as can any other emotion or word or concept.




You once told me you don't remember the last time you felt love. You're only playing with half a deck.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Icelander]
    #4670353 - 09/16/05 04:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Sexual love I mean; I feel love for my family and others, but I have not loved any females recently. You're bringing up subjects a bit off the topic though, and I'd venture to say most young people haven't felt sexual love. I'm not stupid enough to call a relationship where I strongly lust for the person "love", as right now there's no one I would want to spend more than a year or two with, less likely my entire life.

Ad hominem attacks aside... :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Ravus]
    #4670360 - 09/16/05 04:59 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, Cool, you're a lover. Glad to hear it. :thumbup: :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: Swami]
    #4670654 - 09/16/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

The entire chapter 11 of John's Gospel is a miracle story about Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha, who dies and is interred for four days until Jesus shows up. -John 11:35, the shortest verse in the NT says: "Jesus wept."

Now, despite the context of this verse - because Jesus askd GOD to miraculously resurrect Lazarus from death - it is nevertheless highly significant that the attitude of faith - even Jesus' faith, is one of humility, not pride and cocksuredness. It is not a spirituality of blissful knowing where the illusion of this world and its suffering is proclaimed. Suffering is acknowledged despite, and parallel with the 'reality' of resurrection which is depicted in this chapter as a physical reanimation (a piece of midrash which early Jewish readers would have gotten without reading it as a historical event).

"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." -John 11:33

In case readers missed this point, the notion is repeated above, and below:

"Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." -John 11:38

Jesus did not demonstrate omniscience by precognizing that Lazarus would be resurrected to physical life at that time, but wept, and grieved and prayed. The story has Lazarus reanimated as it were, but then, theologically, the Eternal Logos was united to a physical human being in Jesus (according to John's theology) so such a miracle would manifest this truth. Special things happened around Jesus.

At bottom, one's faith in the spiritual resurrection does not translate into the absence of psychological loss from the common experience of death. Yet, beneath the grief of a believer in Eternal Life, there coexists a joy that has its basis in and as that Eternal Life. I have witnessed this phenomenon within myself during the most grim times. I have witnessed my own emotional drama of fear or of loss or of anxiety, and have oddly experienced the inner radiance of tranquil joy at my Center. This, I believe is what chapter 11 of John conveys as a miracle story, although, admittedly, I am in a minority of esoteric Christians. The 'logic' of the story line here is that Lazarus must still eventually die like all of us, but the sequence of events - the joy that one must imagine arose from a dead loved one returning to life can only be read as a juxtaposition of grief and joy. It could only be described this way for 1st century peasants as it is equally described for present day Fundamentalist Christians, since a simultaneity of states of consciousness could not then or now be grasped by those whose understanding is literal.

When one understands that the Gospels are midrash - linguistically colorful stories intended to convey a spiritual perspective, not a literal-historical event - then one can begin to conjecture what humanly experiential truth the ancients were attempting to convey with such literary illustrations. Of course, literalists are always those who look at the pointing finger rather than at that to which the finger points. So, in essence we have 'Yeah, my loved one is in Heaven - but I'm going to miss her!' One's ego at it again.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMJF
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Re: My sister-in law has cancer... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4670842 - 09/16/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

:heart:


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