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Offlinezhukov
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Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 202
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Abandoning the constitution???
    #465358 - 11/21/01 08:35 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Uh huh....Dubya's at it again with new draconian laws to try suspected terrorist non-citizens in secret & with no juries, or judges (just a military tribunal...) :

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/hentoff.php





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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: zhukov]
    #465919 - 11/21/01 08:37 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

Not saying I don't agree with the article(generally I did), but where in the Constitution does it state that non-citizens are protected under the same laws as citizens?


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #465942 - 11/21/01 08:59 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

During the "red scare" non citizen residents or resident aliens who spoke out for unions or the Bolshevik revolution in Russia were immediately deported. That is fine, but when they start in on resident americans, as they did during the red scare, then we need to worry.

This may be a preclude to actions that are forthcoming against those of us who have disagreements with the way this country is being run. So, keep an eye out for further errosion of your liberties.

That said, one high ranking ACLUer has been in agreement with the government's decision to suspend the constittional rights of people being detained. namely, the withholding of a prisoner's right to an attorney, as well as the implementation of "torture" methods to elicit information.

Now worry.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


Edited by PGF (11/21/01 09:02 PM)


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #465958 - 11/21/01 09:22 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

Trust me I am worried about what they're doing with respect to resident aliens, my wife is Canadian(she has a green card). I do agree that resident aliens should be protected under the same laws as citizens, but what about people that are here on student, work, or visitor visas? Should these people realistically have the same Constitutional rights as citizens since they aren't citizens? Not saying I support this whole secret military trial crap.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #465973 - 11/21/01 09:43 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

No, aliens should not be guaranteed all constitutional rights. However, I think that once the gov ceases to treat them as if they are citizens, they should be deported. None of this torture and shit. If the gov does not wish to treat a non-citizen with the same rights as a citizen, that person should have the option to immediately leave.

IMO of course.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #466286 - 11/22/01 03:10 AM (15 years, 19 days ago)

Unless a crime has been commited(an actual crime that can be proven in a US court of law), I would agree whole hearted with you. If a crime has been commited, then we should inform their government and try them in our courts or send them back to be tried by their country. Of course, that's just my opinion.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #466506 - 11/22/01 09:53 AM (15 years, 19 days ago)

It is sometimes a great burden to prove a crime has been commited. A trial is usually necessary to establish guilt or innocence and trials are extrmemly expensive. Why should we burden our system with non citizens? Living here is a privilege for those folks not a right and revocation of the privilege should be at the discretion of our beaurocracy. That crap on the statue of liberty is not, after all, in the Constitution. (-:

Granted, I think it should be easier to become a citizen than it is right now.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: zhukov]
    #466580 - 11/22/01 01:48 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

if Gore was president we would of already lost our rights as citizens. I don't agree with a lot that's going on lately but i do believe that foriegners should NOT be protected under our Constitution.

Life's a bitch....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #467261 - 11/23/01 04:48 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Hadn't considered the financial side... of course, I'm sure there would be exceptions to every rule. You do make a good point. True it is on the statue that talks about the poor and weak and huddled masses... it's a French conspiracy :). Let me ask, what about becoming a citizen do you think should become easier? My wife was offered the option of citizenship and choose to get a green card retaining her Canadian citizenship.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #467396 - 11/23/01 09:36 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

True it is on the statue that talks about the poor and weak and huddled masses... it's a French conspiracy :).


The irony is the French are regular nazis to immigrants.

Let me ask, what about becoming a citizen do you think should become easier? My wife was offered the option of citizenship and choose to get a green card retaining her Canadian citizenship.
I would think your wife could get US citizenship while retaining Candian citizensihp, right? Dual citizenship?

I think non english speaking immigrants have a really tough challenge to obtaining citizenship. I remember my brother's yugoslavian wife's father had a very tough time and it took forever. I'm not sure of what the hold up was, but a background check and a job and place to live should be the only requirement, IMO. Once you show that you are not just another burden on the system, they should let you in english speaking or not.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 21,330
Loc: Wexico
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #469393 - 11/25/01 06:17 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

Non-citizens should not be protected by the Constitution and if they are suspected of being terrorists they should not be deported or turned over to the governments that they have citizenship to. We are trying to save American lives here and the best way to do that is to torture some Arabs in hopes of gaining information.

So long as we are going to fight this war, we should keep ourselves as safe as possible. Now is not the time to coddle the liberals.


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InvisibleJackMehoff
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Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 193
Loc: up your ass
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469552 - 11/25/01 09:30 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

You are a about a sad excuse for an American you fucking wanna be Nazi.


Senor_Doobie at Auschwitz in 1943

Senor_Doobi: The Angel of Death


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BULLSHIT


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: JackMehoff]
    #469583 - 11/25/01 10:29 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

And here we see a man so blinded by his Liberal upbringing that he cannot distinguish between the genocide of millions of Jews, and a wartime criminal investigation.

Do you see why coddling these fools at such a crucial time would be a mistake?


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469739 - 11/26/01 03:38 AM (15 years, 15 days ago)

Doobie, that's a little fucked. It is in fact very fucked. So, I come down there (from Canada), and I'm messing around burning a flag or something with some freedom fighters at a protest. Then the man comes and arrests me. Then, they find out I'm not a citizen, therefore enabling them to torture me and shit, whereas a citizen would be protected by the constitution (or common sense and human dignity).
Who decides that I might be a terrorist? What is the justification of this? If you start messing around with shit like that, I hope you can contain it.


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469821 - 11/26/01 09:05 AM (15 years, 15 days ago)

Ul, I do not see them torturing protesters anytime soon. I believe by terrist activity Doobie means terrorist related activities; burning a flag makes you a college kid with too much time on his hands, not a dangerous terrorist.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Registered: 08/12/99
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #469868 - 11/26/01 11:38 AM (15 years, 14 days ago)

PGF is correct.

I have to count on my government to make the proper distinctions. Burning a flag is not an act of terrorism. Letting a terrorist live at your house is.

Torture is not a form of punishment. It is a form of gaining information. To torture some Canadian would not help expose terrorists, while torturing a suspected terrorist may.

The lines are a bit hazy, I'll admit, but this is a dangerous time.


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Edited by Senor_Doobie (11/26/01 11:40 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469966 - 11/26/01 01:46 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

WOW...i'm beginning to like you...something has got to be in the water....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #469987 - 11/26/01 02:12 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

Beginning??

I thought we were old buddies...


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #470478 - 11/26/01 10:18 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

ok, so me burning a flag might not get me tortured, but that wasn't really the entire point of it... It's the fact that once you get started doing something like that, and you find that it works real good, things have a tendancy to get out of hand. That is pretty much the case of everything related to the US, larger than life, if you catch my drift. I don't trust any american poilitician to decide who get's tortured and who doesn't, because once that politician (or whoever's doing the deciding) starts making descisions like that, they have gone too far... Things are already bad enough down there with capital punishment and all, why would you want to start torturing? How does that make America a better place?
Actually, I hope you do start torturing people, and then more people in the world will realize what a fucked up place America is. (You do realize that almost every civilized country is repusled by you capital punishment system and how much you love it...)
Besides, torture doesn't yeild actual results, it just makes people tell you what you want to hear., so that you stop torturing them. This might be the truth, and it might not... Don't you remember anything from the past? Haven't you learned anything?
Torture. What the fuck.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 21,330
Loc: Wexico
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #470685 - 11/27/01 01:35 AM (15 years, 14 days ago)

The past has obviously taught us that torture works. That's why we are using it.You are repulsed by our capital punishment? Who cares? You people are repulsed by anything that comes out of America simply because it comes out of America.

Remember that Hollywood, an American institution, still leads the "civilized" world in movie revenue. As do our sitcoms and for some reason, Baywatch.

You donn't seem to mind our greenbacks either...but when it comes down to something you can afford to thumb your noses at, capital punishment becomes the major drawback.

You are disgusted? It's probably because you are a pussy.


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