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 Annapurna1
liberal pussy
 
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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 does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... 
#10425338 - 05/30/09 01:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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in fact..the US constitution does limit certain rights..such as the right to vote or to hold public office..to US citizens...
however..the paranoid..xenophobic right asserts that no constitutional rights should extend to noncitizens.. and they seem to be rapidly gaining ground...according to this logic..anyone unable to prove citizenship could simply be snatched off the street and held under torture for the rest of their lives without a trial or any kind of judicial review whatsoever...
i can understand why thats so tempting to so many ppl...but the big catch is that any piece of paper you can produce to "prove" citizenship can be summarily presumed to be a forgery...nor is there any other way to prove citizenship apart from documentation.. and to repeat ..if you cant prove that documentation isnt a fake..then your not a citizen and have no civil rights as such...
fortunately..this is not (yet) the case ..
amendment V ..
Quote:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
it says "persons"..not "citizens"...and the authours of the constitution used this language precisely for the reasons given above...in practice..however..the meaning of "persons" in the 5th amendment is governed by johnson v eisentrager (1950)...IMAO..eisentrager still gives the govt too much leeway to deny constitutional protections to persons in US custody..but what the right-wing xenophobes are proposing is much worse...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (05/31/09 12:58 AM)
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 Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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 Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Annapurna1]
#10425442 - 05/30/09 02:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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> however..the paranoid..xenophobic right asserts that no constitutional rights should extend to noncitizens..
Funny, it is the paranoid..xenophobic left that asserts that "People" in the 2nd amendment applies only to US citizens and not to illegal aliens. Go figure... paranoid..xenophobic idiots can come from both the left and the right political extremes.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Seuss]
#10425649 - 05/30/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> however..the paranoid..xenophobic right asserts that no constitutional rights should extend to noncitizens..
Funny, it is the paranoid..xenophobic left that asserts that "People" in the 2nd amendment applies only to US citizens and not to illegal aliens. Go figure... paranoid..xenophobic idiots can come from both the left and the right political extremes.
It is the US government and US law that asserts that "The People" in the 2d amendment only applies to US citizens. Filled out a weapons application recently.
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What can we do to help you stop screaming?
Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: TGRR]
#10426236 - 05/30/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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> Filled out a weapons application recently.
Do I look like I live in the US? Back when I was there, the second amendment was still valid and one was not required to give a semen sample to buy a firearm.
Oh, and "People" is not capitalized in the 2nd. Point of constant debate. It was capitalized in the original, but not in the ratified version.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Seuss]
#10426454 - 05/30/09 06:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Do I look like I live in the US? Back when I was there, the second amendment was still valid and one was not required to give a semen sample to buy a firearm.
I wasnt required or requested to give a semen sample, they got one anyway
and I'm of the belief that the constitution applies to natural
born and naturalized citizens and legal resident aliens,
illegals are entitled to execution... that's just my opinion though
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Prisoner#1]
#10426501 - 05/30/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Illegals have the right to be arrested and deported. Summarily and without trial.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: zappaisgod]
#10426543 - 05/30/09 06:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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I disagree with deportation, they'll just return in a week and waste more resources
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Prisoner#1]
#10426569 - 05/30/09 07:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe take a finger or a toe each time and sell them as trinkets. To recoup the cost of the bus ticket.
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Seuss]
#10426613 - 05/30/09 07:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> Filled out a weapons application recently.
Do I look like I live in the US? Back when I was there, the second amendment was still valid and one was not required to give a semen sample to buy a firearm.
Oh, and "People" is not capitalized in the 2nd. Point of constant debate. It was capitalized in the original, but not in the ratified version.
i own 11 firearms and none of them were a pain for me to get. it was pretty easy actually. the worst one was my first pistol, which i had to wait 3 days because i didnt have my CWL yet. the rest were a measly 5 minutes worth of paperwork and a swipe of the CC.
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Prisoner#1]
#10426616 - 05/30/09 07:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
and I'm of the belief that the constitution applies to natural
born and naturalized citizens and legal resident aliens,
illegals are entitled to execution... that's just my opinion though
QFT
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Prisoner#1]
#10426625 - 05/30/09 07:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I disagree with deportation, they'll just return in a week and waste more resources
deport them to africa or australia.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: LeftyBurnz]
#10426719 - 05/30/09 07:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
leftysurprise said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I disagree with deportation, they'll just return in a week and waste more resources
deport them to africa or australia.
On a bus.
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: zappaisgod]
#10426728 - 05/30/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: zappaisgod]
#10426731 - 05/30/09 07:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Illegals have the right to be arrested and deported. Summarily and without trial.
Okay, so your notion is to deport all brown people, on accusation alone.
Gotcha.
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What can we do to help you stop screaming?
Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: TGRR]
#10426957 - 05/30/09 08:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Illegals have the right to be arrested and deported. Summarily and without trial.
Okay, so your notion is to deport all brown people, on accusation alone.
Gotcha.
no, just illegals, seems the come in all colors including tens of thousands from canada
there's no need to make it a racial issue when it's not
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Annapurna1]
#10426991 - 05/30/09 08:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
i can understand why thats so tempting to so many ppl...but the big catch is that any piece of paper you can produce to "prove" citizenship can be summarily presumed to be a forgery...nor is there any other way to prove citizenship apart from documentation.. and to repeat ..if you cant prove that documentation isnt a fake..then your not a citizen and have no civil rights as such...
.
I was under the assumption that if the govt, or for that matter anyone, makes a claim against someone, that the accuser has the burden of proof to prove that the document is fake, not me to prove it's real (at first)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Annapurna1]
#10427125 - 05/30/09 09:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
in fact..the US constitution does limit certain rights..such as the right to vote or to hold public office..to US citizens...
Don't confuse the applicability of the constitution or the jurisdicition of the courts with the extension of particular rights.
Just cuz you can't run for president (in theory, though obama showed that was wrong) without being a citezin doesn't mean the constitution doesn't apply to noncitezins. The very reason the guy is bound to not run is because the constitution applies.
I have no idea why "illegal immigrants" are such a big deal. These people probably by and large have a cleaner record than most people on this forum and yet you guys want to exlude the most basic of rights to these individuals (even where they've been neither convicted nor accused of anything) without any due process. Can we just hold pedro in the county jail for the rest of his life without charging him with anything? Summarily kill him without charge nor trial?
You guys need to learn the difference between something that restrains the government and something that grants rights to the people. The constitution almost exclusivly restrainst he government, and thus it doesn't matter to whom the prohibited acts are commited against, by and large, in this country.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: Prisoner#1]
#10427602 - 05/30/09 11:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Illegals have the right to be arrested and deported. Summarily and without trial.
Okay, so your notion is to deport all brown people, on accusation alone.
Gotcha.
no, just illegals, seems the come in all colors including tens of thousands from canada
there's no need to make it a racial issue when it's not
How do you know they're illegals, without due process?
--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?
Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: TGRR]
#10427875 - 05/31/09 12:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Illegals have the right to be arrested and deported. Summarily and without trial.
Okay, so your notion is to deport all brown people, on accusation alone.
Gotcha.
no, just illegals, seems the come in all colors including tens of thousands from canada
there's no need to make it a racial issue when it's not
How do you know they're illegals, without due process?
Exactly, its a stupid notion because:
a) its illegal, and
b) its a meer accusation which is used to justify the punishment without any process for determining legality
I am continually amazed that people whom I thought were supportive of the constitution and object to proposals on that ground, later reveal themselves to be totally inconsistant. They use the constitution as a meer prop to support their position, discarding it at will if they don't like the result, and yet they lecture other people on second amendment rights and the like.
Ridiculous. The constitution means what it says. The fourteenth amendment says nobody shall be deprived of liberty by any state without due process of law. This is exactly what this prohibition does.
Further, the fifth amendment clearly states nobody shall be deprived of liberty without due process. Summary deportations violate this right as do, again, bans on illegals possesing guns with no notification, factual findings, or opportunity to contest.
As Seuss said, if they can summarily deport an illegal they can summarily deport you, or kill you, or do anything at all they want to do to you.
It astounds me that people who claim to support the constiution suddenly ignore it without so much as an explanation when they don't like the result. Your rights mean nothing if the constiutiton means nothing, and your impassioned please to own a grenade launcher or assault weapon are utterly worthless when its revealed you think the law should ban two professors with no criminal record from having a child if they are of the same sex or that we can simply accuse someone of being "illegal" and do whatever we like to them.
Edited by johnm214 (05/31/09 12:20 AM)
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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Re: does (or should) the US constitution apply solely to US citizens?... [Re: johnm214]
#10428464 - 05/31/09 04:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
I have no idea why "illegal immigrants" are such a big deal. These people probably by and large have a cleaner record than most people on this forum and yet you guys want to exlude the most basic of rights to these individuals (even where they've been neither convicted nor accused of anything) without any due process. Can we just hold pedro in the county jail for the rest of his life without charging him with anything? Summarily kill him without charge nor trial?
no, just promptly deport him. no need for sitting in our crowded jail system.
they are such a big deal because they are helping to destroy our economy(as if were not doing enough ourselves) by sapping money(most of the time tax free) and goods and sending them back to their home country. im always reading stories of crimes committed by illegals, especially over in the southwest and down here in florida. hell one of the mexicans i worked with when i was in construction was here with fake papers(BUT he paid taxes before sapping the economy, so thats a bonus), he wasnt a half bad guy until the dipshit went and got 3 DUI's in 3 years finally being deported the third time after he DUI hit and ran.
ill agree that many of them are probably not bad people, but the law still applies and they need to follow the rules to get into this country like the millions that already have in the past. youre right john, they do deserve some rights, such as due process, only the basics, however they do not deserve all of our rights, especially the 2nd amendment. there is nothing wrong with legal immigrants owning guns, i think every single person that is upstanding and legal in this country should own at least one, but i draw the line at illegals. if they are illegal then that means they would have had to bring the weapon in illegally too, which is no worse than the mob or other organizations importing illegal weapons.
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