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Offlinezhukov
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 202
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Abandoning the constitution???
    #465358 - 11/21/01 06:35 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Uh huh....Dubya's at it again with new draconian laws to try suspected terrorist non-citizens in secret & with no juries, or judges (just a military tribunal...) :

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/hentoff.php




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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: zhukov]
    #465919 - 11/21/01 06:37 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Not saying I don't agree with the article(generally I did), but where in the Constitution does it state that non-citizens are protected under the same laws as citizens?


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #465942 - 11/21/01 06:59 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

During the "red scare" non citizen residents or resident aliens who spoke out for unions or the Bolshevik revolution in Russia were immediately deported. That is fine, but when they start in on resident americans, as they did during the red scare, then we need to worry.

This may be a preclude to actions that are forthcoming against those of us who have disagreements with the way this country is being run. So, keep an eye out for further errosion of your liberties.

That said, one high ranking ACLUer has been in agreement with the government's decision to suspend the constittional rights of people being detained. namely, the withholding of a prisoner's right to an attorney, as well as the implementation of "torture" methods to elicit information.

Now worry.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

Edited by PGF (11/21/01 07:02 PM)

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #465958 - 11/21/01 07:22 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Trust me I am worried about what they're doing with respect to resident aliens, my wife is Canadian(she has a green card). I do agree that resident aliens should be protected under the same laws as citizens, but what about people that are here on student, work, or visitor visas? Should these people realistically have the same Constitutional rights as citizens since they aren't citizens? Not saying I support this whole secret military trial crap.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #465973 - 11/21/01 07:43 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

No, aliens should not be guaranteed all constitutional rights. However, I think that once the gov ceases to treat them as if they are citizens, they should be deported. None of this torture and shit. If the gov does not wish to treat a non-citizen with the same rights as a citizen, that person should have the option to immediately leave.

IMO of course.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #466286 - 11/22/01 01:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Unless a crime has been commited(an actual crime that can be proven in a US court of law), I would agree whole hearted with you. If a crime has been commited, then we should inform their government and try them in our courts or send them back to be tried by their country. Of course, that's just my opinion.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #466506 - 11/22/01 07:53 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

It is sometimes a great burden to prove a crime has been commited. A trial is usually necessary to establish guilt or innocence and trials are extrmemly expensive. Why should we burden our system with non citizens? Living here is a privilege for those folks not a right and revocation of the privilege should be at the discretion of our beaurocracy. That crap on the statue of liberty is not, after all, in the Constitution. (-:

Granted, I think it should be easier to become a citizen than it is right now.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: zhukov]
    #466580 - 11/22/01 11:48 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

if Gore was president we would of already lost our rights as citizens. I don't agree with a lot that's going on lately but i do believe that foriegners should NOT be protected under our Constitution.

Life's a bitch....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #467261 - 11/23/01 02:48 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Hadn't considered the financial side... of course, I'm sure there would be exceptions to every rule. You do make a good point. True it is on the statue that talks about the poor and weak and huddled masses... it's a French conspiracy :). Let me ask, what about becoming a citizen do you think should become easier? My wife was offered the option of citizenship and choose to get a green card retaining her Canadian citizenship.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #467396 - 11/23/01 07:36 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

True it is on the statue that talks about the poor and weak and huddled masses... it's a French conspiracy :).


The irony is the French are regular nazis to immigrants.

Let me ask, what about becoming a citizen do you think should become easier? My wife was offered the option of citizenship and choose to get a green card retaining her Canadian citizenship.
I would think your wife could get US citizenship while retaining Candian citizensihp, right? Dual citizenship?

I think non english speaking immigrants have a really tough challenge to obtaining citizenship. I remember my brother's yugoslavian wife's father had a very tough time and it took forever. I'm not sure of what the hold up was, but a background check and a job and place to live should be the only requirement, IMO. Once you show that you are not just another burden on the system, they should let you in english speaking or not.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #469393 - 11/25/01 04:17 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Non-citizens should not be protected by the Constitution and if they are suspected of being terrorists they should not be deported or turned over to the governments that they have citizenship to. We are trying to save American lives here and the best way to do that is to torture some Arabs in hopes of gaining information.

So long as we are going to fight this war, we should keep ourselves as safe as possible. Now is not the time to coddle the liberals.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleJackMehoff
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Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 193
Loc: up your ass
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469552 - 11/25/01 07:30 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

You are a about a sad excuse for an American you fucking wanna be Nazi.


Senor_Doobie at Auschwitz in 1943

Senor_Doobi: The Angel of Death


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BULLSHIT

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: JackMehoff]
    #469583 - 11/25/01 08:29 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

And here we see a man so blinded by his Liberal upbringing that he cannot distinguish between the genocide of millions of Jews, and a wartime criminal investigation.

Do you see why coddling these fools at such a crucial time would be a mistake?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469739 - 11/26/01 01:38 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Doobie, that's a little fucked. It is in fact very fucked. So, I come down there (from Canada), and I'm messing around burning a flag or something with some freedom fighters at a protest. Then the man comes and arrests me. Then, they find out I'm not a citizen, therefore enabling them to torture me and shit, whereas a citizen would be protected by the constitution (or common sense and human dignity).
Who decides that I might be a terrorist? What is the justification of this? If you start messing around with shit like that, I hope you can contain it.


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469821 - 11/26/01 07:05 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ul, I do not see them torturing protesters anytime soon. I believe by terrist activity Doobie means terrorist related activities; burning a flag makes you a college kid with too much time on his hands, not a dangerous terrorist.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #469868 - 11/26/01 09:38 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

PGF is correct.

I have to count on my government to make the proper distinctions. Burning a flag is not an act of terrorism. Letting a terrorist live at your house is.

Torture is not a form of punishment. It is a form of gaining information. To torture some Canadian would not help expose terrorists, while torturing a suspected terrorist may.

The lines are a bit hazy, I'll admit, but this is a dangerous time.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Senor_Doobie (11/26/01 09:40 AM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #469966 - 11/26/01 11:46 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

WOW...i'm beginning to like you...something has got to be in the water....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #469987 - 11/26/01 12:12 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Beginning??

I thought we were old buddies...


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #470478 - 11/26/01 08:18 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

ok, so me burning a flag might not get me tortured, but that wasn't really the entire point of it... It's the fact that once you get started doing something like that, and you find that it works real good, things have a tendancy to get out of hand. That is pretty much the case of everything related to the US, larger than life, if you catch my drift. I don't trust any american poilitician to decide who get's tortured and who doesn't, because once that politician (or whoever's doing the deciding) starts making descisions like that, they have gone too far... Things are already bad enough down there with capital punishment and all, why would you want to start torturing? How does that make America a better place?
Actually, I hope you do start torturing people, and then more people in the world will realize what a fucked up place America is. (You do realize that almost every civilized country is repusled by you capital punishment system and how much you love it...)
Besides, torture doesn't yeild actual results, it just makes people tell you what you want to hear., so that you stop torturing them. This might be the truth, and it might not... Don't you remember anything from the past? Haven't you learned anything?
Torture. What the fuck.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #470685 - 11/26/01 11:35 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

The past has obviously taught us that torture works. That's why we are using it.You are repulsed by our capital punishment? Who cares? You people are repulsed by anything that comes out of America simply because it comes out of America.

Remember that Hollywood, an American institution, still leads the "civilized" world in movie revenue. As do our sitcoms and for some reason, Baywatch.

You donn't seem to mind our greenbacks either...but when it comes down to something you can afford to thumb your noses at, capital punishment becomes the major drawback.

You are disgusted? It's probably because you are a pussy.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #470799 - 11/27/01 01:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

>> Things are already bad enough down there with capital punishment

Hey, hey, hey... just because you don't agree with it and your country doesn't support it, doesn't mean it should be critized like that. I agree with you about torture, but what about people like Timothy McVeigh? What about people like Ted Bundy who was able to escape(ok, so it was on his way to the court house, but there have been others that have escaped from prison such as the seven from Texas last December) and continue killing people? Are we to allow these people murdering the masses to continue living there lives? Do you want to start paying for these people for the rest of their life, including any medical costs to keep them alive? While I'll concede that the system is far from perfect, and probably far too over used(just look at the statistical deviations for minorities, ie minorities more often being sentenced to death for things that whites are not) this is a system that has the support of most Americans still(and not comparable to torture which assumes guilt as opposed to a punishment after proving guilt).


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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InvisibleUlysees
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #470860 - 11/27/01 03:05 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"The past has obviously taught us that torture works. That's why we are using it.You are repulsed by our capital punishment? Who cares? You people are repulsed by anything that comes out of America simply because it comes out of America."

You sir are obviously an ignorant man. How has the past obviously taught us that torture works? I can't believe I'm dignifying this remark... And you are using it already? How'd I miss that?
Yes I am repulsed by your capital punishment system. Who cares? Most every other citizen in every other civilized country, as I stated earlier. You demonstrate the fabled American Arrogance very well.
We people are repulsed by anything that comes out of America just because it comes out of America?
Alright, have we met? And you've met my people as well? Sorry, I don't remember this meeting. So how do you justify that statement? Ohh, with Arrogance... I remember.

"Remember that Hollywood, an American institution, still leads the "civilized" world in movie revenue. As do our sitcoms and for some reason, Baywatch."

How does movie revenue relate to anything? Yes, you have developed some nice special effects. Bravo. People in the market for that kind of thing are impressed, but what exactly does that have to do with anything? And why did you put the word civilized in quotes regarding this? Am I to assume that the civilized world in fact not civilized? Is America the only civilized nation because it produced Baywatch? I'm not following you here...

"You donn't seem to mind our greenbacks either...but when it comes down to something you can afford to thumb your noses at, capital punishment becomes the major drawback."

What the hell are you talking about? I don't seem to mind your greenbacks? When it comes down to something we can afford to thumb our noses at? I assume you are reffering to my people again, the mysterious tribe of secret greenback lovers who have a fetish for Baywatch but are repulsed by Capital Punishment... Should I love every aspect of America, even though I'm not a citizen, just because you make movies and Baywatch and your money is green? You're really not making any sense at all here Senor. I prefer my Canadian multi-colored back personally. I find your money quite monotonous.

Senor Doobie thinks I'm a pussy? That's fine with me, considering I obviously don't want to be like Senor Doobie.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #470866 - 11/27/01 03:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Mokshaman, those people are all a product of their society. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to blow people up and whatnot, but I'm surprised at how many people can't look any deeper than 1 dimension.
Isn't Capital Punishment supposed to be a deterant? Well, it's not working. Why is the American murder rate *by far* the highest in the world despite this deterant? When I said that America is the only civilized country in the world that has capital punishment, I meant it. Yet most of us countries seem to be doing many times better than America despite your seemily ultimate punishment.
Can you really not see this? I suggest all you Death Penalty fans take a look at some statistics. Look at violent crimes, hate crimes, homicides... Despite Capital Punishment you'll find yourself at the top of nearly all of them (and towering above in most, if not all cases).


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #470916 - 11/27/01 06:05 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

it might be my Alzheimer's....there are so many that hate me...i was going with the odds.:)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #470973 - 11/27/01 09:07 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

How has the past taught us that torture works? If it didn't work we wouldn't do it. Let's say that one day you wanted to get laid and you walked into a bar and punched the hottest girl in there in the face. The last thing she would do would be to go to bed with you and so you would probably find another way to pick up women. You see?

Now, I'm not in the torture game. I'm not a member of the CIA. You aren't either. Those that are have asked to use torture as a means to gain information. I'm sure they've done it in the past, and the results must have been beneficial or they wouldn't be doing it again. Does that spell it out any clearer? I hope so.

Now back to big, ugly capital punishment. I imagine you think it's inhumane or some sissy crap like that. Well, I'll make you a deal. You tell me what is humane about sending someone to a prison rape factory for the rest of their lives is any more humane, and I'll take back calling you a pussy. In the meantime, I would like to see more executions, and I'd like to see them on PBS.

I put "civilized" in quotes because I hate that word. Talk about arrogance. It implies that your happy little white meat culture is superior to other cultures of the world.

It just isn't true. We have plenty of problems in the alleged "civilized" world. The greed, industrialism, materialism, and commercialism that the US has given to the world as a model economic structure is no concern of yours because your "civlized" country happens to enjoy the benefits. And so you must find something different about the US to thumb your noses at, and you picked capital punishment.

Right now there is a huge debate going on in OTD about whether or not circumcision is good or not. The only reason it is being debated is because it is not common practice in Canada, but it is common practice in the States. So, once again, the arrogant Canadians have to use that to claim superiority.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #471089 - 11/27/01 12:31 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

i'm assuming that you're reffering to noone in specific and only chose to respond to me because i had the last post because i agree with your post...because there is nothing that i believe in that can be considered being a "pussy"


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #471125 - 11/27/01 01:02 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I was talking to Ulysees. Sorry for the confusion.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #471136 - 11/27/01 01:16 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

****Isn't Capital Punishment supposed to be a deterant? Well, it's not working****

it's working for me....

****I suggest all you Death Penalty fans take a look at some statistics. Look at violent crimes, hate crimes, homicides... ****

i suggest you look at the rights that most countries have compared to the united states. In addition, the United states is the third largest country for size and population therefore comparisons are a bit scewed, even if you use the per capita approach. As for violent crime, not all offenses are ones that warrant capital punishment so that argument is scewed as well. What is a hate crime?..i thought ALL crimes stem from hate?

Homicides are a capital punishment issue but not all states allow capital punishment since murder is a state crime (unless the victim is brought over state lines) so a deterent only works if everyone is participating..and in my opinion they all should. I bet if you remove the lethal injection and brink back 'ol sparky and hanging the criminals will get the message. Get rid if the "pussyness" in political correctness and liberal emotion legislation and you'll see crime drop. That is certain!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #471244 - 11/27/01 03:10 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

If these people are all products of the evil, awful American society, why aren't we seeing more of these people? Why are these generally isolated cases?
Well let's look at the violent crime rate for those states that don't have the death penalty vs. those that do, shall we. The states that don't have the death penalty are Alaska, Hawaii, North Dakota, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Vermont. For example Mass. has had a greater number of violent crimes than the national average every year from 1989-1998(except 1994 and it was less in 1999(didn't find data for 2000)) from here. Now based on your argument, this state shouldn't be above the national average since it does not have the death penalty. I think that the system of Capital Punishment needs some work, it's not 100%(although there's no proof that anyone who is innocent has been executed). Now let's look at New York who just reinstated the death penalty in 1995, statistically since 1994 to 2000 the murder rate has reduced 53.2%. It appears that something is working in the way that New York is doing business since there violent crime rate has been decreasing since reinstituting capital punishment. The site is here. While New York is also above the national average in violent crimes, violent crimes have been cut almost in half since 1994, while the national reduction has been ~20%. Admittedly these are just two examples, but I considered them worth while since they both contain a major port city in the same general area of the US(I realize this isn't the most accurate picture, but I'm limited on time). Now I never claimed it was a deterant, I claimed that there are some people that will remain a danger so long as they are alive. Now if they are a danger to either other people in the prison population or the public at large(as I said before escape is not unheard of) why should we allow ourselves to be put at this type of risk? I remember there was a case last year of a man in Germany that was convicted of 4 or 5 rapes and escaped to rape again(it was the second time he had escaped as well). Now Germany just has to try to keep him looked up and hope that he doesn't escape again or else have to hear about other rapes. I'm not in favor of using the death penalty hap hazardly(take Texas for example, or even the state I'm from Virginia(2nd to Texas)), but there are some people that are unacceptable and represent a threat to everyone such as serial killers, people that bomb places with large numbers of people, serial rapists, etc. And as someone pointed out, many of these countries that the US is being compared to are many times smaller than the US(probably better to compare US states to most European nations) and have vastly different laws than the US(take the 2nd amendment for example).


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

Edited by MokshaMan (11/27/01 03:22 PM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #471548 - 11/27/01 07:26 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Mokshaman, those are all some good points. Still even when you compare the rates of crimes (not the number, as I have also taken into account the population differences) there are problems. Still, look at some other places like Japan... Their system is by no means perfect, but neither is American or Canadian. What's wrong with change? What's wrong with compromise?
Someone who is going to blow something up isn't going to decide not to because he might get caught and put to death. Someone who's going to go on a killing spree also isn't going to change his mind because he might get caught and put to death. This has been proven (sorry, I can't refer to the study) or at least demonstrated clearly, and it is actually one of the reasons that the rest of us civilized countries don't institue a death penanlty (you do realize there are reasons, right?). We used to have one (Canada) but we found it wasn't really working, so we gave it up. Lo and behold, things are actually better since. Of course you have to make some other changes as well. If America just dropped the death penalty today I agree things might get worse before they got better. But, if you start taking away the reasons why people commit these crimes (they do have reasons of course, they might be a little crazy, but they're not all stupid redneck bloodthirsty thrill seekers).
If I was going to commit a violent crime, like a bombing, I would do it in the USA, despite the good chance I would be put to death. Why? Because I don't want to get away with something like that, that isn't the point. I want to cripple the system that I hate (not the one that will treat me good if I get caught, get it? I'm not going to do anything like this by the way, this is just for arguments sake and nothing more.) Most people who would commit a crime like that are not worried about the reprecussions. If you're going to do something that extreme, or even something like serial murder, you're not worried about getting caught. If people worried about getting caught, they wouldn't do it. (I'm also considering the stats you showed Mokshaman, but I'm still standing by my statements. Remember that there is a reason the rest of these places don't have capital punishment, we don't just think it's gross... Remember that most of these places had capital punishment at one time, and Canada had it within the last 30 years I believe.) So just remember that we all haven't abolished Capital Punishment for nothing.

And for the rest of you who brought nothing to the conversation, I refer you back to my previous statements, since I don't feel like writing the same things over again.


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Edited by Ulysees (11/27/01 07:27 PM)

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #471727 - 11/27/01 09:29 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

but all you did was repeat that you think capital punishment is gross and say that things are better in Canada without it without offering any evidence to support it and said that just dropping capital punishment would not be enough but didn't talk about what else needs to be done because the fact is that you are just another America-hating Canadian searching for some kind of national identity in a country that gives you none.



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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #471794 - 11/27/01 10:23 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ulysses, I do not believe the death penalty is a good deterent However, I do feel that some criminals need to be put to death. Certain murderers need to fry. I only wish that the punishment could be expanded to include child molesters and rapists. A lot of bad people in this world need to die.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #471942 - 11/28/01 01:02 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

PGF, those indeed are some things that have to be considered, and things that I too think about, despite the fact that I don't like Capital Punishment.

Senor Doobie, I'm sorry that I was an asshole, I felt provoked and whatnot... You did it too, right? Anyhow, you haven't got me pegged quite right, and I think that us acting like bitches isn't going to help anything. Do I have all the answers? No. Do you? No. Do you honestly like Capital Punishment? Does it make you happy to know that you are the (I'm going to say it again, but this time I'm not trying to be a bitch) only civilzed nation in the world that has it, or, to put it better, needs it?
Did I offend you as a person? That should never have come into this. Did I mean to insult your country? Not exactly. It is true that I don't like many things about America, but I don't like Canada that much either... (if you didn't know, I'm trying to figure out every possible way to get out of here.)
I don't have to like every thing about America. I might have a great car, and I love it, but when something isn't working or there's something better to replace it with, I wouldn't be opposed to switch it.

I wasn't too much of an asshole through this discussion, was I? If anything I was snide and condescending (ok, that's bad). Well, sorry about that. And yes, I still think capital punishment is ridiculous. Does that opinion really make me less of a person?


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Edited by Ulysees (11/28/01 01:03 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #471949 - 11/28/01 01:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

How many people here like the death penalty? How many people think I'm a pussy because I don't like it?
Why didn't I spend more time giving proof to support my opinions- because it's not worth my time and effort to dig them up, and it wouldn't do any good anyhow. Honestly, the rest of us don't need proof anymore. It's become common sense to almost every non american civilized person. When you get to the point where you don't have to prove that killing people is wrong, you have become something special in my opinion. (Though wee don't really call it special, we call it normal.) Again, I'm not trying to be a bitch, I'm just giving you a little background on where I'm coming from, and why I got into this in the first place.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #472175 - 11/28/01 08:47 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I would like to apologize to you for being a dick. I acted like an asshole and I'm sorry.

I still don't have a problem with capital punishment. Like I said, I don't see how prison is any more humane than just ending the person's life. You speak for a lot of people when you say 'every non-American citizen' and I still don't understand what you mean by 'civilized'.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #472751 - 11/28/01 06:50 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

ya, I see what you mean. When I say civlized nations I'm reffering to developed countries. (So, there might be a lot of places with the death penalty, but America is the only *civilized* nation with it... the degree of civilization might be a bit sketchy though...)
And when I say "every non american *civilized* citizen is repulsed by the death penalty" (I did say that, right?) I mean that almost literally. Sure there are some people who would like capital punishment in their country, there are Canadians who want it too, but they are by far the minority.

That reason (as you just mentioned) for capital punishment is in fact one of the most difficult to consider.
Still, I impressed myself with one of my statements up there, something about, "when you don't have to convince yourself that killing people is..." I don't remember, oh well.
Peace


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Edited by Ulysees (11/28/01 06:52 PM)

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #473627 - 11/29/01 01:35 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

>>What's wrong with compromise?

Claiming that the US system isn't perfect and that I think the death penalty is far over used, isn't more of a compromise than basicly saying it's wrong and no other civilized country uses it, so that US shouldn't either? Maybe I'm missing something here. Why should capital punishment(not capital deterant(and I still have never, ever claimed it deters people from crime), it's a punishment) be completely removed from every system? Shouldn't anyone that's proven to be a continued danger, whether to other prisoners or to the general public, to commit violent crime be punished with their life? Not everyone can be locked up and forgotten about. For example in the past ten years in Australia there has been the couple that raped, tortured, and murdered a number of younger girls; there was another serial killer; and most recently there was the woman that killed her husband and baked his flesh, these are extreme cases and represent a danger that will never be removed(well maybe not the woman, but still what she did was fairly extreme). Are these people also products of their society? Well, Australia doesn't have the death penalty, so how did these people come to be? What are they doing with these people other than keeping them in jail(at state expense) for the rest of their life?

>>How many people here like the death penalty?

Do I "like" the death penalty? No, certainly not. Do I support the use of capital punishment? Yes, of course I do. There are some crimes that no other response is resonable. If capital punishment is that awful, why has the international court at the Hague not condemned the Nurumbreg trials(admitedly in the past, but they have also condemned people after their death)? Many of these Nazis were put to death because of these trials(it was an international trial supported by many nations). What about Milosevic? What are we to do with him? There are still people that follow him and would like for him to regain power in Serbia(Bosnia and Kosovo too I'm sure). Does he not represent a clear and present danger if he is proven to have commited the henious crimes that he is being tried for? What about bin Laden if a chance for trail were to come up? Should he just be locked away? Would that not represent just as great a reason to attack America as if he were killed? I think capital punishment is over used, I won't try to deny it. I think Texas has commited an overwhelming number of prisoners to the death. I agree that there needs to be a change, but I don't think that removing capital punishment removes any danger from the US. I also want to pose this question to you, if no one that commits a crime is worried about capital punishment, why is it every so often I hear about violent criminals not being deported from Canada until the US agrees to not give them the death penalty? I'll ask another question, in recent years(past 3-4) there have been a large number of hookers(20-30) in Vancouver that have dissappeared, if it's discovered that someone has been killing them after raping and torturing what are you going to do with this person? Throw this person in jail and hope they can't(or don't) escape(or maim or kill other prisoners)?


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

Edited by MokshaMan (11/29/01 01:38 PM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #473822 - 11/29/01 04:34 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

You just put to me more questions than I can answer (or am willing to answer at least at the moment). Yes, all very good points. "What about Bin Laden?" Well, in that whole vein of questioning, I'll give you this as an answer. Those people are not America's to dispose of as they see fit. Something on a much larger scale should be in place in situations like that, and if say, the U.N. came to the conclusion that yes, Bin Laden should be executed, then so be it. There is no Black and White. But, should a state have a death penalty to execute criminals? No. You said yourself that the death penalty is misused, or abused, or used too much, or something like that. Well, in most cases, I don't think the death penalty should be implemented. If America can't get by without the death penalty (as you imply) then what does that say about a country?
About those "extreme cases" you mentioned. Are those people products of their society? Of course they are. There will always be crime, and there will always be criminals who shock and apall you. Always, no matter what. Those people are at the opposite end of the scale, they are the contrast. They are just as important to the definition of a society as the monks and the choir boys. In some cases, perhaps the death penalty might be in order, but, when you start doing that, you know what comes next. Abuse. It trickles down until at every second or third crime there are people screaming for the death penalty.
Why do you think that's there's a quick fix for everything? Why do you think that exterminating all these people is better than any other alternative? The fact is, being "good" (in a nutshell) isn't always synonymous with "easy" or "convienient".
Maybe America will never abolish the death penalty. I don't know. Canadians didn't think it would happen here, but it did. So, if it happens in America, and YOU become the extremists and the weirdos screaming for the death penalty (as they are generally regarded around here, and to the best of my knowledge, in nearly *every other civilized nation in the world*) give me a call, and I'll ease you into the idea.


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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #474178 - 11/29/01 10:22 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I could hardly believe it when I heard Dubya saying that he personally would decide whether or not someone should be tried by a Miltary tribunal or not. King George, from secret testimony', will decide which individuals get an open trial and which get a secret one. All to 'protect the Country' of course. Just like to protect God and Jesus they will trample on the rights of others with forced prayer..

Shouldn't be surprised, after all Senator Joe McCarthy was a Republican. And he was 'protecting the Country' just like Dubya.

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Offlinecyclone
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #476971 - 12/02/01 10:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Im with you Doobie. The only problem with Capital Punishment is it is not used enough. They sit in jail and eat three meal a day at the public's expense for 15-20 years. This garbage needs to go.

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OfflineMklangelo
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #477261 - 12/02/01 03:15 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ulysees,

If I had the choice between spending the rest of my life behind bars, or dying, I would choose death. (Of course I would exhaust all of my legal options first and in the meantime hope to remain a virgin...) hehe


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: Mklangelo]
    #478418 - 12/03/01 03:04 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Canada does not have life in prison. The max is 25 years for first degree murder. In fact in 2000 there was a man that killed 11 people who was given the max of 25 years(probably to kill again once he's out although he'll be 60).


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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Offlinezhukov
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #481542 - 12/06/01 12:39 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

Canada does not have life in prison. The max is 25 years for first degree murder. In fact in 2000 there was a man that killed 11 people who was given the max of 25 years(probably to kill again once he's out although he'll be 60).




That's pretty much the story here in Aust as well....life usually means 20 or so, or could be even less; sometimes out in 10 for good behaviour, meaning they haven't committed another crime in jail....

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Abandoning the constitution??? [Re: PGF]
    #485549 - 12/09/01 10:39 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ul, I do not see them torturing protesters anytime soon.

I know that this is not what you meant, but giving someone 20 years imprisonment and taking them from their families for growing a few marijuana plants is most certainly torture by most anyone's standards and has been going on for decades.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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