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OfflineJon
Registered: 06/28/03
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Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience.
    #4484487 - 08/02/05 09:09 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

For example, the perception or feeling that you can see the possible outcome of an object being in 2 places at once? Kind of hard to explain but under certain substances or circumstances, mushrooms in general for me I can remember being able to see different, like I felt like I had more arms then usual, same with the legs, but it felt very basic what was going on, it was like this line of symmetry going down my brain, left and right hemisphere and theres a mirror right smack in the middle of the brain. Although this makes one feel extremely disoriented it felt very true. Although I wasnt in the condition to truly be aware of how many limbs I had, I did have the idea that my arms and legs could possibly be anywhere in my room. How would one go to compare a transcendental psychadelic experience with the possibility of quantum physics?


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4484552 - 08/02/05 09:49 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It's a good question. If I were you I would look into the notions of "empty form body," "illusory body," and "rainbow body."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4484628 - 08/02/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I keep talking about this.
the language I am using is a mix of of gestalt psychology, and neurology.
the principle noted in neurology is neuron signal fading.

after peak signal transmission, decreasing neuronal pulses continue for several milliseconds fading to nothing in about 1/6th of a second.

your whole gestalt of experience is constantly being built up by these fading signals from all sensory detectors.

on entheogens, these signals fade more slowly, sometimes lasting to more than a second, depending on dosage and type of entheogen.

accordingly, before one gestalt has faded another becomes fully active, and, to be precise, if the fading has been extended to 1/3 of a second you have two gestalts, pushed further you can have up to about 30 coincident gestalts or apparent dimensions - all apparently equally real. (after this signal density it becomes next to impossible to perceive anything - some call it ego loss, recognition and associative thought as we know it is drummed out by the chaos of input that has not faded)

multiple limbs, or limbs that extend through more than one gestalt frame or 3-d limited space are very very common.

visually when you perceive a multiple (say 4 copies of one view by extending fading to 1/2 to 2/3 of a second - ~level 3-4 of salvia...) if the stacking of gestalts persists, in the next gestalt you can double it to 8 copies, and by the time you get to 32 layers, millions of copies of living moments will seem to be equally real or unreal.


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Registered: 06/21/05
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4484651 - 08/02/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quantum Physics is appealing to trippers because the way in which it describes the universe is reminiscent of the way in which one perceives the universe during the psychedelic experience. I don't think that this is entirely coincidental - I think that maybe the psychedelic/mystical experience agrees with quantum phyics so well because they might be both pointing towards the same thing.

On the other hand, I think trippers are quick to jump to conclusions when they read about quantum physics. As an example, people often take quantum entanglement, which allows for two particles to communicate instantaneously, and extrapolate it as to allow for telepathy. This happens all the time - quantum physics, if I'm understanding it correctly, largely describes reality at the atomic and subatomic level, and in any case at a very material level. To extrapolate it and make conclusions about human experience constitutes a logical leap considering what we know, and though we may eventually have that bridge to cross, it hasn't been built yet...


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4484654 - 08/02/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

it may be vaguely analogous to certain quantum phenomena, but really it has nothing to do with it. like trying to compare atoms to solar systems; it kind of seems ok at first but really its nothing like it.

quantum physics is very precise description of the behaviour of elementary particles. that is all. its not some magic thing that you can apply to anything that seems slightly weird.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: alsey]
    #4484727 - 08/02/05 11:03 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

since we can hold two different existences in mind completely at the same time (or more than 2) it becomes easy to allow impossible relationships.
so
it is magnificent
some of those impossible connections actually are valid lines to pursue in our human creative process.
we always blend things to see the underlying possiblities checking for connections.
that is the beauty of the construction of our brain based minds.
we can distill out amazing connections when we see two or more realities superimposed.
well some of them are not half bad, but all of them are artifacts of this crazy system we are incarnate in, and most are ridiculous.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4484835 - 08/02/05 11:58 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see what this has to do with quantum physics. A sensation that feels like you understand the implications of an object being in two places at once doesn't necessarily have anything to do with an object being in two places at once.

Your imagination can create all kinds of sensations, you experienced an odd mish-mash of sensations while tripping that reminded you of the idea of an object being in two places at once. The idea is not the same as the event.

The feeling that something is possible, or happening is not at all the same as the thing actually happening.

One thing that I also find odd is how people try to translate some of the strange things that quantum physics predicts into their own perception of the world. For instance, the possibility that particles might suddenly exist in more than one place is about particles.

Think of it this way; each partcle is a point of light on a television screen, and interference is the event of those particles behaving abnormally a la quantum physics. When you get interference on a tv screen, do characters in shows suddenly show up on the other side of the screen? Do objects turn upside down? Nothing like this happens, quantum physics doesn't "know" the difference between an object and the ground it sits on, or the air around it. It's all a bunch of particles. It's not going to make individual objects move around or disapear.


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OfflineJon
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Phluck]
    #4486085 - 08/02/05 05:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well yea, your all correct about me jumping into conclusions, hell I know jack shit about quantum physics. But what I do know, that it is a science based on possibilities. But I wouldnt go as far to say that I saw an object at 2 places at once, rather that the objects had a possibility of being anywhere, and that certain sensation led me to ask this question. Id really like to know more about this stuff, especially the "gestalt psychology" which redgreenvines mentioned sounds very interesting. But I wouldnt go about saying that some parts of quantum physics is not relevant to the observations of the mind. Like how they say that the subatomic particles are flashing in and out of existance, where do they go? It cant really be a fact but a possibility based on the observations of a straight human mind. Well when states are altered, ethneogens can be considered filters of thought. Imagination does play a big part in the observation through another eye, but our minds are just about as mechanical as a computer. We have the defense of the perfection in nature, our creation and our ability to percieve. But our perceptions of math, nature, creation itself seems to change on certain ethneogens. What are the possibilities of subatomic particles, instead of them disappearing and reappearing, cant they just be moving around soo fast that we cant be aware of their existence? I dont think we are sophisticated enough to be aware of the truth in these anomalies, therefore we push them into a catagory of possibilities and a subcategory of doubt. What ever happened to the theory of everything being connected, our closest definition to spirituality as we know it. And I lost myself, forgive me if I just sounded like an idiot.


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4486604 - 08/02/05 08:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps sometimes while focussing and looking around, you create a mini universe. 


It seems detached and very different from what is going on around you because it is so relatively small, when compared to your surroundings, and so, is not necessarily bound by conventionnal rules and laws.  Your relative focus on it blows it up and scales it into something that you can notice, clearly and magnified.


Within a fixed volume, or of a  finite amount of amprphous blob, as you get smaller and smaller, although you are not really getting anywhere, things around you seem to become more and more distant.


I would be inclined to consider that getting smaller, relative to your observed outter environment, involves quantum mechanics...  A theory where the rules that one has come to accept as norm, are somewhat different.


Different mini rules in a relatively shared finite environment makes me think of ' us '; and how we live in relatively close proximity to one another, but the rules of my personnal imagination are different than the rules in anyone else's imagination.

Same goes for everybody, I speculate.






Not sure how to tie this into psychadelic use...


Lemme take a stab at it though:


What if, during those times, you sharpen your focus. Sharpening your focus allows you to view and see more detail, but smaller in scale. So you don't really go anywhere relative to your body.

However, getting smaller and looking around, increases distance of things relative to you that you can see. For example, think how far away an electron is from a proton, due to the scale...  Yet at our current physical body size, you can't even distinguish the two.

THere lies the illusion of bigness...



It's really smallness.  :eek:



But this dosen't mean that it is a dead end. No one knows all of the laws of quantum mechanics.  This could be a good thing to know that things get pretty discontinuous as you get smaller.




But suppose you went too small...  and the discontinuity principle got you disconnected... and you couldn't find your way back here... to this relative reality...


Is that what we observe as true insanity?




Interesting thing to note...


I saw a show once, where scientists threw, I don't remember exacly, but I'm thinking, electrons through a particle accelerator.

Often this produces those 'inward spiral configurations' on the particle detectors they use.

They noted that, many times where the spirals occured, that in fact, their occurance was synonymous the areas that they 'thought ' they'd go to.


Could thought be governed, or simply, intertwined with quantum mechanics?


...And if this is a reasonable deduction, then no wonder that you can't trully  mentally move that silly pin wheel.  Its waaay to heavy to be moved by the tiny things you're throwing at it.  :lol:




If this is true, that thought is small in scale, there is no wonder just how much information can be written onto your brain.  If you "write" small enough, you can almost fit an infinite amount of info onto that grey matter of yours.


:shocked:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4486821 - 08/02/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

the spiritual thing is largely about transformation to a more refined way of being and also somewhat about having some place to go after we are not here (that last part may be connected to the first or just silly believer trash)

the quantum stuff is meaningful as part of the medium or carrier wave matrix that we are signals upon - in the same way that radio waves are carriers of music, our physical dimension is the carrier for what we can experience but not just for us - for all creation all that is here.

one day quantum stuff may take us beyond the "confines" of this dimension - why not? but what we are doing with psychedellic is more about the electronic nature of experience in the brain, her in this dimension, riding on this carrier wave, and it is particularly due to prolonging the life of a moment so that many moments (senses of dimension) co-exist and smear together. imagine the gravity effects of doing that to the actual dimension on a quantum level. sheesh! quantum wormholes!


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4486838 - 08/02/05 09:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"...sheesh! quantum wormholes!"


I couldn't agree more.


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Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4489051 - 08/03/05 11:13 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

""How would one go to compare a transcendental psychadelic experience with the possibility of quantum physi""

Like this..


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Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Gomp]
    #4489673 - 08/03/05 02:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

:lolz0rz:

Maybe it's cause I just woke up, but I found that rather humerous right about now.


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Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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OfflineLuke
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: Jon]
    #4580631 - 08/25/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Thats because some drugs make us more hyperdimensional.


Edited by Luke (08/25/05 07:45 PM)


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OfflineSerioOria
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Re: Quantum Physics, and the psychadelic experience. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4581079 - 08/25/05 09:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I keep talking about this.
the language I am using is a mix of of gestalt psychology, and neurology.
the principle noted in neurology is neuron signal fading.

after peak signal transmission, decreasing neuronal pulses continue for several milliseconds fading to nothing in about 1/6th of a second.

your whole gestalt of experience is constantly being built up by these fading signals from all sensory detectors.

on entheogens, these signals fade more slowly, sometimes lasting to more than a second, depending on dosage and type of entheogen.

accordingly, before one gestalt has faded another becomes fully active, and, to be precise, if the fading has been extended to 1/3 of a second you have two gestalts, pushed further you can have up to about 30 coincident gestalts or apparent dimensions - all apparently equally real. (after this signal density it becomes next to impossible to perceive anything - some call it ego loss, recognition and associative thought as we know it is drummed out by the chaos of input that has not faded)

multiple limbs, or limbs that extend through more than one gestalt frame or 3-d limited space are very very common.

visually when you perceive a multiple (say 4 copies of one view by extending fading to 1/2 to 2/3 of a second - ~level 3-4 of salvia...) if the stacking of gestalts persists, in the next gestalt you can double it to 8 copies, and by the time you get to 32 layers, millions of copies of living moments will seem to be equally real or unreal.





so is that why i see an infinite number of dimensions on salvia?


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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