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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4463962 -

During these experiences where the ego seems inoperative...it is still there, but you are aware of it's operations, so it is easy to modify it's action. In Castaneda terms It could be said that realization(ego-death)is the result of stalking the ego.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4463979 -

:thumbup: :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4463985 -

If you think about it meditation is just a form of stalking.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4464184 -

Taoists have historically used drugs w/ Inner Alchemy. This is nothing obscure... check the Needham work on it... my mentor at Lehigh is a premier Taoist scholar and when talking about it made it seem as if theres no question that Taoists have utilized entheogens.

Just becuase some "Taoist temple" may say something one way or another regarding entheogen use, it doesn't necessarily reflect any historical trends. Who knows how the lineage of a given temple was delivered. Charlatans abound...


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\

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4464245 -

crunchytoast said:
i find that i have a big ego.  i find myself wanting to lecture people.  in real life and on these boards.  i'm used to people being impressed by my intelligence, because i usually deal with people who i feel smarter than.  i feed of that.  it's bullshit.  i'm pretentious.  maybe i prefer this fantasy to being pathetic as i feel.  i notice i'm wearing a mask and i'm horrified by that image.  i'm so fake and phony.  ugh...  i'm horrified by how pathetic i am.


This is just another form of indulging.  To exalt the self or to vilify the self are the same.  It's all self importance. We are what we are, and that is a mix of something.  Besides  I kind of like you Crunchytoast. :grin: :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4466505 -

thanks icelander, you know, you sound ambivalent about liking me- i want you to know i think i'm okay with that.  :wink: :heart:

i find your remark that i'm being self-important very insightful.  "i am pathetic"- that implies i need pity.  i do need pity sometimes, but not right now for this.

important- it's more accurate to say i'm pretentious because i feel unimportant and i'm ashamed of my unimportance and i envy people who seem "important" to me.  if i'm envious, i'm envious.  and i feel like i'm lying when i manipulate other people's impressions of me to make them envious.  and i feel quite foolish when i say something that sounds impressive to me, but that falls on unimpressed ears.

:doh:


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4466624 -

I like you just fine. I like who I like. And I like you. I have no ambivalence about you. You're cool and I think you rock. :thumbup: :heart:  :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4466646 -

well thanks but i was kind of hoping for ambivalence!


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4466654 -

I'll bet you were. :lol:      :hug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4466722 -

mikeytwice said:
Taoists have historically used drugs w/ Inner Alchemy. This is nothing obscure... check the Needham work on it... my mentor at Lehigh is a premier Taoist scholar and when talking about it made it seem as if theres no question that Taoists have utilized entheogens.

Just becuase some "Taoist temple" may say something one way or another regarding entheogen use, it doesn't necessarily reflect any historical trends. Who knows how the lineage of a given temple was delivered. Charlatans abound...


Yes exactly, its simply this exact temple that is anti-drug. I know the Tao has a lot of drug use in its history.

I am hoping I get them using entheogens at this temple actually.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4466778 -

Neem Karoli Baba, the Hindu dude that Ram Dass gave three hits of white lightning LSD tabs to(approx. 900 mic. I think) said what I believe to be a pretty accurate summary on the subject. (Paraphrasing from memory here) "These medicines are very powerful. Villages used to know about these medicines but this is rarely practiced today. The medicines let you see angels, but spiritual cultivation allows you to become one."
It was something like that. I agree with him too. I don't feel I am in a proper environment or mindset to cultivate myself spiritually. I see psychedelics as something to remind me of what I am capable of becoming.


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I'ts all a fucking lie! Everything written by me is fictional. I don't even exist!

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4466785 -

Icelander said:
That was debate. With a personal obsevation thrown in. No offense please, but my idea of productive and yours vary to some degree.

If this advice is just for Buddhists, then say so at the beginning. Because from where I sit, some of those statements are ignorant, like I said, how would they ever know about someone elses experience. I mistrust people who make subjective statements as if they were objective truths.


Not to be rude.....but I would like to call some attention to the title of this thread.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: MJF]
    #4466804 -

Check out my first post. :smile: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: MJF]
    #4466816 -

I would like to call your attention to the fact that the thread title addresses the validity of the restrictions of inebriants that many Buddhists and Taoists call for, as hinderances to spiritual growth. I divined from the title that the validity of this concept would be examined. I saw nowhere that non-buddhists need not reply.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4466942 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I would like to call your attention to the fact that the thread title addresses the validity of the restrictions of inebriants that many Buddhists and Taoists call for, as hinderances to spiritual growth. I divined from the title that the validity of this concept would be examined. I saw nowhere that non-buddhists need not reply.


Correct....and the dude posted what one of them (oriental religous person) thought.....and the other dude wanted it to be made clear that...it was inteded for Bhudists only...and I thought that was kinda funny considering the topic of this thread....
now I'm off topic....and I feel inclined to delete my posts from this thread...but i won't

back on topic....

what is the intention of asking what the restrictions are?

Is it possible for a religion to have a collective thought? Or is it really all just up to the individual?

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: MJF]
    #4467190 -

"Is it possible for a religion to have a collective thought? Or is it really all just up to the individual?"

I say it is all up to the individual. The question begs to be asked "When was new ground ever broken or new discoveries made by observing dogmatic conventions?"


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4467495 -

if enlightenment is simply realization of the self beyond the ego and drugs can help loosen the ego, why can't they be a catalyst to enlightenment? isn't egoloss, egoloss regardless of how it is acheived? or is it necessary to have a clear mind in order to hold onto it? i feel that ethnogens have shown me incredibly things and they have certainly had a lingering affect on my everyday awareness. however i am not fully enlightened so i'm not qualified to say whether or not they hinder you on the path.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Psiloman]
    #4467517 -

Psiloman said:
Substances like psychedelics can help someone if used correctly but...have a look around.


I have to agree. For most users, psychedelics fit into a larger pattern of buzz-chasing, dodging boredom, and running from a negative perception of self and/or the larger reality. Even those who come at the experience with an attitude of exploration often become attached to the "special effects," and their journey stops there.

Besides, I have found even my meager meditative experiences superior to any drug state by orders of magnitude, particularly because the results are lasting and cumulative, improving both my enjoyment and performance of daily tasks. Mindful presence in the world, just as it is, is far from "black and white."

Buddhist practice, erratically as I've pursued it, has decreased my desire for intoxicants, particularly cannabis, because clarity is more interesting.


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"This is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive, and things are just starting." --Dreamer

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Deviate]
    #4467591 -

Deviate said:
if enlightenment is simply realization of the self beyond the ego and drugs can help loosen the ego, why can't they be a catalyst to enlightenment?


Talking about "what is enlightenment" gets pretty slippery. Focusing on egolessness can be another way of focusing on the ego, which is what the ego is in the first place. Just talking about something called an "ego" that can be lost becomes an obstacle.

If everything perceived as existing singularly is the intersection of almost-infinite causes permeating myriad lives past and present, every action conditioned by the causative pressure of all those relationships and sparking a similar flush of new entanglements, then will simply noticing in the midst of a trip that such is the case be enough to extract you from the situation?


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"This is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive, and things are just starting." --Dreamer

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4467632 -

how are inebriants tools for higher awarness?
where is the the higher ground?

Ped said:
Below is a discussion I had with Ven. Thubten Chodron on the subject.  It applies here.  She says that while drug induced experiences may be spiritually uplifting and beneficial in the short term, in the long term they impair our spiritual growth.  She says that drug induced experiences are not sustainable, while the fruits of spiritual effort are.  I tend to agree with her.



nice one ped :thumbup:


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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