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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4461494 -

Ven. Chodron is a Buddhist who in this case was giving advice to another Buddhist. It was not advice intended for "all people", since not everyone is a Buddhist. Buddhism is a school of thought and practice with it's own internal integrity. It is open for all beings and intended for all beings, but not all beings are expected or required to think, believe, and practice, according to the doctrine.

I posted Ven. Chodron's comments here because it is relavent subject matter. You may take it, debate it, or leave it, but please don't disparage it, as that is not productive conversation.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4461525 -

That was debate. With a personal obsevation thrown in. No offense please, but my idea of productive and yours vary to some degree.

If this advice is just for Buddhists, then say so at the beginning. Because from where I sit, some of those statements are ignorant, like I said, how would they ever know about someone elses experience. I mistrust people who make subjective statements as if they were objective truths.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #4461642 -

Post deleted by ergot

Reason for deletion: double post.



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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: ergot]
    #4461652 -

Tripping offers the illusion of help, while only being a hindrance. The chaotic speculation that arises while tripping does NOT help "still the mind"... nor does the chemically-induced experience directly parallel the awakening of your own inner being.

You want to be like a still pond that reflects the moon... tripping is ripples upon the pond... fragmenting the moon and distorting the clarity.


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4461714 -

"Because from where I sit, some of those statements are ignorant, like I said, how would they ever know about someone elses experience. I mistrust people who make subjective statements as if they were objective truths."

I stand with you on this one. How can a person whose experience with psychedelics is limited judge the intrinsic worth that they posses. It would be better to ask someone who has many years and varieties of spiritually oriented entheogenic use. I doubt any Buddhist master knows as much as many of the people on this forum, such as you and I, about the potential of entheogens for spiritual growth. What bothers me about Buddhism is the "Zen Master" ego complex that so many of them possess. It must be said that the only Buddhist that I have ever met that did not have this attitude was a dear friend from Eastern Europe whose familly was Buddhist for generations back. He is the only "native" Buddhist I ever knew well. His familly treated their religion as a daily part of life. I never heard the over-analysis from my friend that I see here. It was his father who introduced me to Buddhism and it was the self-styled white American Buddhist who turned me away from it with the "Guru" mentality.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4461745 -

Ped said:
>> Ya they wanna keep us in black and white. They are simply narrow minded towards drug use.

This is bias. I think you are narrow minded toward the Dharma and it's practitioners.



This is my bias. I will stop my teachings here with you. You are hopeless.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Icelander]
    #4461777 -

Luke: "I will stop my teachings here with you."

And this dude here is either joking or a perfect example of what I discussed in my last post.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4461789 -

Ped said:
>> I am a Taoist master myself.

A Taoist master knows that there is no such thing as a Taoist master. From our point of view as ordinary beings, a Taoist master is free from bias. Clearly you are not free from bias.




A Taoist master would still state a Taoist master existing. The one bias of a Taoist master is the Tao itself.
We are never free from bias, this the whole point of the Tao. Keeping bias in all mindfulness. Harmonzing with everything.

You see I have ordinary beings as I talk about materialistic things that will alter all concepts and realization of bias.

This is just you're ego using its aggorance and seeing things in the ordinary realm already. Break past what you think is ordinary, this is a Taoist bias. We never break free from any bias. It is simply illusion (maya).

Things could stick out like a sore thumb or be at the most sublime level. It would not matter. It is all equal and one.

Stop thinking about concepts and start focusing on nothing.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4461799 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Luke: "I will stop my teachings here with you."

And this dude here is either joking or a perfect example of what I discussed in my last post.


I simply do not have the effort for anymore explian about how drugs can help. People are looking at it from an ego level. So I give up.
Drugs simply help us lose or ego. Into the state of ego loss.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4461806 -

You look like a 12 year old wannabe Mexican thug. You're just as much a Taoist master as I am Jesus Christ.

You are a chav.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: spud]
    #4461818 -

spud said:
You look like a 12 year old wannabe Mexican thug. You're just as much a Taoist master as I am Jesus Christ.

You are a chav.


Thats talking from ego.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4461820 -

An egoless self proclaimed master?

Oh the irony.

:rotfl:

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4461851 -

Ped said:
Ven. Chodron is a Buddhist who in this case was giving advice to another Buddhist. It was not advice intended for "all people", since not everyone is a Buddhist. Buddhism is a school of thought and practice with it's own internal integrity. It is open for all beings and intended for all beings, but not all beings are expected or required to think, believe, and practice, according to the doctrine.

I posted Ven. Chodron's comments here because it is relavent subject matter. You may take it, debate it, or leave it, but please don't disparage it, as that is not productive conversation.


By the way, Buddhism has a lot of entheogenic usage already.
Buddhist/tantrics use cannabis. Syrian rue usage and monks in Northeast Tibet.
Amanita muscaria usage has been used in Buddhist legend, some people reaching enlightenment through the realization of the drug experience. There are a few very odd Buddhist rituals related to Mahakali which are purported to perhaps utilize Datura merely to show the mind as being the source of maya. Buddha is even depicted with a bowl of Soma (cannabis).


Drugs are a firm part of the Dharma wheel. Dharma treats these drug experiences as very special wholesome gains in the Dharma wheel.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4461852 -

i find that i have a big ego. i find myself wanting to lecture people. in real life and on these boards. i'm used to people being impressed by my intelligence, because i usually deal with people who i feel smarter than. i feed of that. it's bullshit. i'm pretentious. maybe i prefer this fantasy to being pathetic as i feel. i notice i'm wearing a mask and i'm horrified by that image. i'm so fake and phony. ugh... i'm horrified by how pathetic i am.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: spud]
    #4461861 -

spud said:
An egoless self proclaimed master?

Oh the irony.

:rotfl:


One can not reach egolessness. Only the state of ego loss. The ego comes back after these states of ego loss/death.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4461864 -

I recommend upping your dose of datura next time.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4463242 -

Luke said:
spud said:
An egoless self proclaimed master?

Oh the irony.

:rotfl:


One can not reach egolessness. Only the state of ego loss. The ego comes back after these states of ego loss/death.


Then why bother in the first place.  Or I guess ego loss is like an orgasm one is always trying to chase.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: TheCow]
    #4463261 -

If egoloss is temporary then who benefits from this egoloss? Certainly not you as you have no ego and thus cannot benefit from it, or am I missing something? If you are eliminating 'you' as an entity, then what knowledge can be gained by a nothingness searching for a higher truth? I would really like the answer to this as this is something I have been wondering for a while. Knowledge cannot be engrained into your head afterwards, or else your ego was there watching the spectacle the whole time, thinking yes I have finally achieved it, lets remember this.

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: TheCow]
    #4463877 -

During my studies of Buddhism, which I admit was many years ago, I learned that "self-realization" was not about getting rid of the ego - but more becoming aware of it through observation and meditation. I never heard the term "ego-death" before coming to this forum, and I practiced Zen for nearly five years.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: TheCow]
    #4463937 -

TheCow said:
If ego loss is temporary then who benefits from this ego loss?  Certainly not you as you have no ego and thus cannot benefit from it, or am I missing something?  If you are eliminating 'you' as an entity, then what knowledge can be gained by a nothingness searching for a higher truth?  I would really like the answer to this as this is something I have been wondering for a while.  Knowledge cannot be ingrained into your head afterwards, or else your ego was there watching the spectacle the whole time, thinking yes I have finally achieved it, lets remember this.


You cannot "lose" your ego.Nor can it "die" with out the self dying. What is meant by these terms, from my experience, is that the ego structure/cultural persona, becomes inoperative for some period of time. It is at these times one can become aware of a larger totality of being. My  ego is only one essential part. Yet most go through life believing that is the totality of the self. Psychedelics can be a catalyst for this broader awareness. They are a tool. It is up to you to use it skillfully. Or not. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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