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Offlineytse
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Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper)
    #4400352 - 07/13/05 05:38 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Some days ago Psiloman send me the very interesting link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...amp;query_hl=12

It comes from the American , national library of medicine.

I quote 2 sentences:

*
Quote:

Plants grown in the greenhouse accumulated the same amount of alkaloids as native plants




*
Quote:

Grafting on roodstock which does not produce essential amount of the alkaloids, does not affect the ability of Lophophora to synthesize mescaline and pellotine.





Very interesting eh?

It makes grafting much more charming to me! :cool:

Does anybody have an experience confirming anything of the above?


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4400830 - 07/13/05 07:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I've suspected this for some time and have made statements supporting the idea. I'm glad to see it upheld in scientific literature.

Thanks for the link.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlineesin
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4400833 - 07/13/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that 2nd quote just means grafting does not interfere with the ability to synth alkaloids over time.

Grafting peyote will seriously pump up the cactus in a short time. This will not allow it time to produce the same amount of alkaloids/weight it would produce if it grew slowly.

AFAIK you cannot even start to compare a 10 cm grafted button that reached that size in 3 years to a 10cm button that took 30 years to grow to that size.

If you were already taking that into account, disregard my post :wink:

EDIT: Oh, about the first quote, it might be an indicative that stress does not actually increase cactus' potency at all.


Edited by esin (07/13/05 07:29 PM)


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Offlineytse
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: esin]
    #4400963 - 07/13/05 08:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Ekstaza :

nice! Could you give us some links to your statements or just quote them here.

Esin:

Thanks for participating. In case you have some support (data) to your opinion , please provide it. I am thirsty for info and I want to clear this thing out. Unfortunately I don?t have a personal experience.

Quote:

I believe that 2nd quote just means grafting does not interfere with the ability to synth alkaloids over time.




I believe that in case it refers to ?over time? it should be mentioned. It?s not the ?logical? assumption.


Quote:

This will not allow it time to produce the same amount of alkaloids/weight it would produce if it grew slowly




Why do you say this?
:confused:
Aren?t alkaloids produced along with all the other chemicals?

Does Greenhouse - hydro pots contain less THC than the slowly grown?

It is very encouraging that grafted Lophophoras flower and produce seeds when they reach the right size ( which happens at a fraction of ?ground? time)


A bioassay of grafted peyote would be very enlighting.
Some arguments from the other side would be interesting as well!
Input please! :smile:


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


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Offlinechonyidbardo
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4401027 - 07/13/05 08:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

did anyone actually read the article? Or just quote the abstract?


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Offlineesin
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4401065 - 07/13/05 08:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What i said wasn't based on scientific facts, rather on stuff i have read at the nook (which is supposed to be based in empyrical knowledge).

They say best/faster results are achieved by grafting the cacti till acceptable size, than stick'em in the dirt for a few years.

I shall dig links tommorow for this thread, right now i need to go to sleep as i have an exam tommorow :crazy:

>>Aren?t alkaloids produced along with all the other chemicals?

In cacti? I *believe* not, there seems to be a higher concentration in the oldest parts of the plant.
If you try and chew on a pup it shouldn't taste very bitter at all compared to older growth.

But than again, like i said this is not scientific. There's no way to be sure until someone performs quantitative analysis on old vs new growth of the same plant.

Some plants produce contant levels of alkies in new or old growth, at the same rythm as they grow (phalaris is prolly an example). Some will just slowly produce it and accumulate it over time (like mimosa hostilis or desmanthus).


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Offlineytse
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: esin]
    #4403095 - 07/14/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Here is a thread that includes an interesting quotation from MS Smith . I paste it here:

Quote:

...... the answer is quite clearly no, there is no change in the chemical structure of one plant due to the grafting of it to another plant. It would appear that all a base plant does is increase the availability of water to the scion, allowing the scion to grow at a faster pace. The production of chemicals within a plant occurs within its own cellular material, something that is not transferred from one plant to the other......




Any more info would be appreciated


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


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OfflineHikuli
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4403119 - 07/14/05 12:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i have grown cactus , espescially peyote and peruvian torch amongs the mescaline containing cactuses, using several methods and the end results differs little, I can not see that any methods of growing and any other specie I have gradted peyote on has made the end result better or worse, its more or less the same. Outdoors, indoors, greenhouse and so on. Of course no chemical analyzes have been taken but it seems to me from my own personal experience that the two claims in the beginning post are true


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4403926 - 07/14/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

My two cents on the matter:

I consider graftings a quite valuable asset of cultivation of rare species.In the case of lophophora wiliamsii it can provide for increased growth.

Now,how about alkaloids? Difficult to answer.Certainly the "host" plant will provide water and minerals to the graft through its xylem from root to top. Could we also have carbohydrates moving to the graft or other substances? Could they be moved through the phloem of the plant? It seems that it only moves sugars and other nutritional elemements from the top (and  leaves) to the roots.We also have some lateral transportation of nutrients through plasmodesm. So could the graft receive other nutrients/substances except water and minerals? I dont know,here we need radioligands to stady it :laugh:

Certainly i would say that there is no transportation of Mescaline or other alkaloids between plant cells,even if the host can produce some (like graftings of Trichohereus species) Why? Lets have a look here:



Ok ,the picture is not that accurate but it will give a rough idea of what im talking about. See the part called "Vacuole"? Well,this space as the cell matures takes up 90% of the intracellular space forcing all other organelles go towards the membrane.So ,the diagram we are seeing there is that of a young plant cell.

Why are the improtant to this discussion? Simply vacuoles amongst other functions are a storage space for cells having water,calcium oxalate and other substances like ALKALOIDS! Its an enclosed space that rarely something goes out.Its the space you are trying to reach and liberate its contents when you boild your peganum harmala,when you freeze and thaw your pedro's for extractions and when you boil for hours unend your Mimosa Hostilis. This space is so well isolates that plants like Colchicum Autumnalis can store their colchicine there (mitotic cell division poison,dreaded amonsgt those who know what it is) so that it poses no harm to the plant.

So ,once we located where mescaline is ,we know why it cant simple "move around " the plant. The point of interest though is this...Do INDUCERS of the mescaline producing pathways move around?  Do CHEMICAL TRIGGERS that attach to enzyme promoters on the DNA can make their way towards the graft? Now,thats an area of research.

Id say go for grafts all the way,and if you want leave it for 5 -6 -7 years grafted! I would believe that more biomass per time unit is produced in grafts than in plants on the ground,so this gives you more cells, more cellular macinery to do the ...erm...dirtywork.


Edited by Psiloman (07/14/05 03:51 PM)


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: Psiloman]
    #4404724 - 07/14/05 06:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Psiloman said:

Id say go for grafts all the way,and if you want leave it for 5 -6 -7 years grafted! I would believe that more biomass per time unit is produced in grafts than in plants on the ground,so this gives you more cells, more cellular macinery to do the ...erm...dirtywork.




Exactly what I believe to true.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlineesin
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: ytse]
    #4407125 - 07/15/05 09:32 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well ytse, aparently you are right. I don't know where i got the idea that grafted peyos will be less potent than old non-grafted plants :shrug:

The only link i found on potency of grafts at the nook seems to corroborate your opinion http://www.nookarchives.info/archives/tek/graft_alkalo.html

The one person i thought believed grafted plants are weaker than regular grown ones - Nanook - does believe the opposite after all.

I agree with that we need more bioassay's though. The article isn't really clear and i believe what they do mean is just that, grafting on inactive species will produce active peyote.

Quote:

Grafting on roodstock which does not produce essential amount of the alkaloids, does not affect the ability of Lophophora to synthesize mescaline and pellotine.




Quote:

did anyone actually read the article? Or just quote the abstract?



All that is available to read is the abstract.


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Offlineytse
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Re: Estimation of mescaline on house and grafted plants! (Scientific paper) [Re: esin]
    #4407320 - 07/15/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hey esin, thanks for the link!
It seems that you have a very nice character! You didn?t hesitate to revise! :handth:

>>>The article isn't really clear and i believe what they do mean is just that, grafting on inactive species will produce active peyote.

Its true that it is not very clear, but meaning what you think ,without saying anything about degrafting is somehow farfetched.
Especially after comparing the alkaloids of greenhouse and wild plants.
Except if he means wild plants that were reintroduced to the wild :wink:

I am still looking for a bioassay .I?ll try Erowid experiences


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


κατσίκα


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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