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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Live Aid-Live 8
    #4362760 - 07/02/05 12:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So alot of these bands want us to sign up on a list so we can somehow influence the political leaders to increase aid to the 3rd world nations. The thing is all the money we have given them already seems to have done nothing but give those with the guns more money to buy more guns and feed their militia men. How is simply throwing money at the problem going to solve anything? I am afraid there is no easy way to solve the problem of starvation and famine. If we could just hold a bunch of big concerts and have everyone wear white bracelets it would have been solved along time ago. Discuss.


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-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


Edited by QuantumMeltdown (07/02/05 12:30 PM)


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4362775 - 07/02/05 12:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think giving money to our government (US) and to the ruling government in third world countries is a major part of the problem. People in power in these countries want to stay in power while using the poor as a huge slave labor pool. They're not going to use international aid to restructure their society enabling the downtrodden to get ahead. If you want to help these people I think one effective way to do so would be to end government subsidies in the US. Allow people relatively equal footing instead of propping up certain US industries with tax payer dollars.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: cb9fl]
    #4362823 - 07/02/05 12:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You got me confused on that one. Can you explain further? I understand the first part. What do you mean by subsidies in the U.S.? Propping up certain US industries with tax $$ ?? What would the economy here in the U.S. or other industrail countries have to with it?


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4362850 - 07/02/05 01:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/fairtrade/coffee/1687.html
http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/corn_subsidies.cfm

Just a quick search. I just skimmed those articles but they appear to represent the problem.

Edit: another link
http://www.fee.org/vnews.php?nid=5873
Quote:

U.S. farmers annually receive more than $20 billion from the government, and EU subsidies are even larger?45 billion euros a year.2 These payments for beef, cotton, wheat, and other products spur production, depress product prices on world markets, and make it more difficult for farmers in developing countries to compete. American farmers produce twice as much wheat as the country uses, but federal subsidies help protect them from world market-price signals. Washington then uses food aid and other export programs as a safety valve to cope with overproduction.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Edited by cb9fl (07/02/05 01:11 PM)


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Offlineajna
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: cb9fl]
    #4362881 - 07/02/05 01:26 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

if it opens one more pair of eyes to realise what's actually going on in the country, then the whole event was worth it.

my 2 cents.


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what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/


Edited by ajna (07/02/05 01:49 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: cb9fl]
    #4362887 - 07/02/05 01:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Absolutely.

What African countries need most (apart from some actual governments -- as opposed to the kleptocracies, thugocracies and chaos they currently have) in order to progress is free trade. Real free trade.

Since Africans traditionally are not that big on manufacturing, the area in which they are most able to immediately become competitive is agriculture. That's never gonna happen while Western governments continue agricultural subsidies to their own farmers, most of whom (in the US especially) are large corporations. Corporate welfare is corporate welfare -- whether the corporations in question produce cars or corn -- and must be abolished.



Phred


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4363219 - 07/02/05 03:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hopefully it will at least spark awerness and concern with issues like this.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Phred]
    #4363269 - 07/02/05 04:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Corporate welfare....must be abolished




I agree :thumbup:


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: barfightlard]
    #4363272 - 07/02/05 04:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Hopefully it will at least spark awerness and concern with issues like this.



Issues like what? They know nothing of why Africa has problems and so curing them by singing songs is going to prove difficult. I think everyone knows that people in Africa are poor, this wasn't a secret that Detective Bono of U2 got to the bottom of. So long as people think that a few more billion a year going to the most corrupt governments in the world is going to help the African people, the African people will continue to suffer. This event is not in any sense of the word beneficial, -- I'd go so far as to say it's deleterious. More cash to further entrench various tyrants is the last thing we need.

But hey, maybe if we let the African people know we're funding their oppressors through the power of song we can have some fun with African terrorists one day!


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Phred]
    #4363276 - 07/02/05 04:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Corporate welfare is corporate welfare -- whether the corporation in question produce cars or corn -- and must be abolished.





I couldn't have said it better myself.


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Redstorm]
    #4364461 - 07/02/05 10:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think Live-8 is a good start, but they really didn't focus their efforts properly. Throwing money at the problem certainly gets the ball rolling, but unless you follow through with debt-relief, stop corporations (ie. multinationals) meddling in african politics, balance the trade deficits (like the US protectionism), promote fair trade leading ultiamtely to a global free trade market, stop using drugs as a blanket to invade countries to prop puppet governments up, build real infrastructure and social welfare systems (health, education, welfare), rather than simply building infrastructure to help corporations extract resources and funnel profits to the first world.

The third world is poor because of colonialism and all that, but also, because after colonialism, we set up something just as bad... dependance. Its the same game, new name.


--------------------
Peace
John


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4364561 - 07/02/05 11:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How do you plan to do all of that with Africas corrupt leaders still in power. I think Ancalagon made alot of good points.


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4364635 - 07/03/05 12:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How do you do it at all? What do you suggest we, as Americans or even the American government, do? Other than ending corporate welfare, as I doubt that will be nearly enough to fix the problems Africa's having.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4364657 - 07/03/05 12:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It starts with a re-focus of interest. People-centered development, rather than phony economic development controlled by multinationals. Corrupt government is easy to fix if they aren't held hostage to multinationals who turn over more capital than they do, who make sure the right people are putting the right policies in place.

The IMF and world bank, which are the regulatory international bodies, are controlled on a basis of economic assets. Evidently, the US controls the large majority; together, the first world controls something like 85% of the flow of trans-national capital. Which means, the rest of the world combined controls only 15% of influence in those bodies. How can effective development occur if the countries we're trying to help have no say in how the aid is distributed?

Note on sources: I base my opinions on a course i took, "Politics of the global south" and the books that went with it. Including, Globalization Unmasked (Petras and Veltmeyer), Poverty and Development (Allan and Thomas) and Third World Atlas (Allan)


--------------------
Peace
John


Edited by BCBudJohn (07/03/05 12:43 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #4364678 - 07/03/05 12:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The first aid we should give them would be to eliminate all farm subsidies.


That's what you call a "win-win situation".


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4364691 - 07/03/05 12:26 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

eliminate all farm subsidies.



:thumbup:


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4365639 - 07/03/05 08:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes the farm and textile subsidies keep the 3rd world poor.
And they also fuck up the 1st world economies. We could get cheaper produce while at the same time developing the 3rd world.
Fuck our farmers, if they can't survive in a non-subsidised marketplace they should just fuck off and do something else. We could make nice nature reservers of the freed up farmland.
Also increased interdependance will reduce wars everywhere.


--------------------
futuretribe.space


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4365810 - 07/03/05 10:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Corrupt government is easy to fix if they aren't held hostage to multinationals who turn over more capital than they do, who make sure the right people are putting the right policies in place.




*Phred turns on sarcasm*

Corrupt government is easy to fix: just keep re-electing the same corrupt assholes over and over again -- as they have done in Canada -- and hope that one day they'll stop being corrupt.

Corrupt government is easy to fix in Zimbabwe -- just leave it to the UN. They'll eventually get around to directing some scary UN "frown beams" in Mugabe's direction.

Corrupt government in Haiti is easy to fix -- after a longer period of self-rule than any other black nation on earth the Haitians are almost corruption free.

*turns off sarcasm*

Dude, most corrupt governments aren't "held hostage to multinationals who turn over more capital than they do." Take a reality pill.

Sarcasm aside, corrupt government was easy to fix in Iraq -- just invade the place and take down the Ba'athists. That was pretty easy.



Phred


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: Phred]
    #4366013 - 07/03/05 11:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

corrupt government was easy to fix in Iraq -- just invade the place and take down the Ba'athists.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Re: Live Aid-Live 8 [Re: cb9fl]
    #4366027 - 07/03/05 11:49 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If corrupt government was the problem americans would be starving too.


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