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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1913864 - 09/13/03 08:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"It's not simply about shopping less. People should learn to live more modestly and consume fewer resources. "

well that a better way to put it

"shopping less will not prevent deforestation. it will not feed starving children. shopping less will not reduce CO2 emissions or save endangered species."
yes it would

explain IN DETAIL, HOW and WHY it wouldnt help the earth if people would use less ???????





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1913872 - 09/13/03 08:20 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you, my friend. You need to explain why it WOULD help the earth.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1913904 - 09/13/03 08:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

well ok, that fair


but it almost seems poinless as it seems SO simple to me but here goes


the less we use the more the earth has
take germany for example 75% of all paper is recycled paper , combine that with limiting ones consumption, I see a western country with no paper needs from trees, EVEN without hemp!

the reason we pollute more is because we shop so much to, food circles the globe and THEN ends up on my plate, wasting fuel, and packaging


Not only is shopping just sick deep down, and no I am not talking about when you go buy eggs at the store , I mean these people that shop just to SHOP, thats fucking sick I dont care if you are right left or whatever shopping just to shop is a sickness !
albertE would back me on this one(I just got a cool book where einstien talks about things other than science , what he thinks of war , materialism etc etc , very cool!)


Since I have been at my new job, a recycling depot, I am thinking that not only a cut in shopping but a change in packages is needed

have any of you heard of the vegtable wrap that safely stores food, and its edible!, you can through it in right with some meat or whatever after unwraping it


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1913982 - 09/13/03 09:08 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I'm sorry, my crude attempts at writing left you no choice but to misinterpret what I meant. The only thing I was saying was that people who live in apartments pay the same amount of rent each month as people who have to make mortgage payments on a home they are inhabiting. The difference is that the apartment dwellers have nothing to show for their payments, whereas homeowners are slowly paying off a loan and thus building monetary worth via assets. I would think that apartments would be a little cheaper to account for this discrepancy.
Quote:



So buy a fucking house instead of renting. If you keep you credit clean and save up a little money. Anyone with a job can buy a house. It is not a rental property owners responsibility to take care of your future, it is yours. Owning a house is great and all but you also have to take care of it. When you do, you will see that maintanence is not all that minimal, especially if you buy an older home.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: shakta]
    #1914045 - 09/13/03 09:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

HEY

if you dont think renters have problems, then you havent lived for 575$ in a motel like room ok

vancvouver and toronto , are horrible(for this)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1914090 - 09/13/03 09:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Actually I lived in a motel for six months once. It cost me almost $800 a month.

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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1914141 - 09/13/03 10:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

If we all shopped less, wouldn't that take jobs from people?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: lysergic]
    #1914160 - 09/13/03 10:17 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Are you sure you're replying to the right person, cuz I'm not the one saying we should shop less.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: lysergic]
    #1914173 - 09/13/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If we all shopped less, wouldn't that take jobs from people?




Yes, of course -- and then those people would shop less, etc., etc. Problem solved. Simple, really.

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Phred]
    #1914358 - 09/14/03 12:13 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure I've gone over this before,but I see it like this:

There is only so much money,and money (or gold whatever) essentially stands for resources.When people take huge somes of money,they are taking it away from other people. I'm not talking about people like doctors and people that are only moderately wealthy,but people that have insane amounts of money,like Bill Gates. I don't care what anybody says,he might deserve to be rich,but he has not contributed enough to society to be that wealthy. You can give me all kinds of crap about individual freedom,but the whole reason there are laws in a civilized society is to keep order and a relative amount of fairness.Bill Gates individual freedom to earn ludicrous wealth does not outwiegh society as a whole.

I'm not trying to pick on Billy,but he just happens to be the richest person in the world right now,so I used him as an example.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: monoamine]
    #1914387 - 09/14/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Bill Gates is extremely wealthy, but he doesn't just sit on his money. He uses it. Whether that may mean investing in a company providing needed capitol for business expansions etc or buying a new jet. He doesn't just pile the cash under his bed. Also remember that there is not a fixed amount of wealth. New wealth can be created by investing and producing things.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1914455 - 09/14/03 01:16 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I understand about putting money back into the economy and all,but if more people just spent money like that,you would be in a bigger crisis with excessive consumption than we are now.

In a theorectical sense,capatalism makes a lot of sense.Companies compete with each other,prices are driven down,and everybody benefits.Sure,there is no such thing as a perfect system,but I think it's very far from that. Think about all the crap people buy because of advertising.I lot of the time,the companies making the best stuff aren't selling the most.Besides Word maybe,Microsoft is a perfect example of this.

People can argue about individual freedom all they want,but if we don't provide some kind of laws and some limited types of socialist checks and balances,we are going to consume ourselves to death.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: monoamine]
    #1914465 - 09/14/03 01:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
I understand about putting money back into the economy and all,but if more people just spent money like that,you would be in a bigger crisis with excessive consumption than we are now.




I'm not talking about consuming. I'm talking about producing. Besides I hardly see consumption causing a problem....there is still plenty of food on the shelves.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1914496 - 09/14/03 01:36 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well,people consume largly because of overproduction.

When I talk of over consumption,I mean mostly enivironmental things like excessive packaging and air pollution,etc.

I see materialism as being like cocaine in a way.People are never happy and they just want more and more.

I can see what you're saying about food being plentiful and stuff,but the technology associated with mass consumption usually doesn't hold up to consumption itself. And this causes poltical and social strife.As long as there are dirt poor and filthy rich in the world,it will always be this way.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1914874 - 09/14/03 07:19 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)


It's not simply about shopping less. People should learn to live more modestly and consume fewer resources.


People want stuff, and they will never be content with what they
have. The only way to stop over-consumption, environmental damage,
and poverty, would be to mercilessly control people's behavior.
Both extremes(uncontrolled capitalism and strictly controlled
economy) are not desirable. We must strike a balance somewhere
in the middle.

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Offlinepaddo
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1914875 - 09/14/03 07:23 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Materialism ,

I wish i had a BMW 7 series
I wish i had a huge flat screen tv
I wish i had a aprillia RSV Mille
I wish i had a bilion euro's

But the biggest wish is
That i wasnt so fucking materialistic.

Paddo

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: monoamine]
    #1914878 - 09/14/03 07:31 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)


There is only so much money,and money (or gold whatever) essentially stands for resources.


In an economy, there are things of value. People trade these
things of value to get other things. Some of these things
are finite(the amount of gold in the world for example), finite but
renewable(trees for example), and infinite in potential scope and
value(intellectual ideas for example).


When people take huge somes of money,they are taking it away from other people.


Yes, of course they take that money from other people, but those
people willingly give that money to that person.


like Bill Gates. I don't care what anybody says,he might deserve to be rich,but he has not contributed enough to society to be that wealthy.

You can give me all kinds of crap about individual freedom,but the whole reason there are laws in a civilized society is to keep order and a relative amount of fairness.Bill Gates individual freedom to earn ludicrous wealth does not outwiegh society as a whole.


Should fairness be ruthlessly enforced so that you limit some
people's abilities? Should we intentionally bring them down to the
level of everyone else? Or should we let them enjoy their talents
and the fruits of their labor?

How does his wealth negatively impact you or anybody else? He has
created something of vast intellectual value(software) that
people everywhere like to use. He has amassed a fortune because
of his own efforts. And by the way, the man is so rich that he is
probably taxed to death, so in the end the public does benefit
from his wealth.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: monoamine]
    #1914888 - 09/14/03 07:39 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)


Think about all the crap people buy because of advertising. A lot of the time,the companies making the best stuff aren't selling the most.


So, you are harping upon people for exercising their free will to do
something you happen to not agree with? If people want to be idiots
with their money, then that is their business.


People can argue about individual freedom all they want,but if we don't provide some kind of laws and some limited types of socialist checks and balances,we are going to consume ourselves to death.


I don't think we should limit consumption and it's scope, but we
should focus on passing laws that deal with the adverse effects
of it(environmental laws for example). I do
realize that there are pitfalls to excessive consumption, and
American society does seem to be focused on consumption a
bit too much. But if we try to stop consumption we will have
to install an economic dictatorship that tells people what they
can buy and when they can buy it. That would not be desirable at all.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: monoamine]
    #1915112 - 09/14/03 10:42 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

monoamine writes:

There is only so much money,and money (or gold whatever) essentially stands for resources. When people take huge somes of money,they are taking it away from other people.

Incorrect.

Currency represents goods and services. Goods and services are created by combining productive human effort with material resources. A vein of iron under two miles of overburden is of no value to anyone -- it is neither goods nor services. But invest X amount of human ingenuity and effort, and that iron deposit becomes pots and pans and steel girders.

The amount of wealth in existence today is greater than the amount of wealth of ten years ago, which was far greater than that of a hundred years ago, which was almost unthinkably greater than that of a millenium ago. You claim it is impossible for someone to gain wealth unless someone else loses wealth. This is incorrect. The amount of wealth in the world is not static. Wealth, before it can be looted, must first be created -- by productive human effort.

I don't care what anybody says,he might deserve to be rich,but he has not contributed enough to society to be that wealthy.

Those who buy Microsoft's products of their own free will disagree with you.

You can give me all kinds of crap about individual freedom,but the whole reason there are laws in a civilized society is to keep order and a relative amount of fairness.

Incorrect. The reason a civilized society has laws is to protect the individual from those who would initiate force against him.

Bill Gates individual freedom to earn ludicrous wealth does not outwiegh society as a whole.

How has the existence of Bill Gates harmed society as a whole? How does his possession of a huge mansion or two prevent me from buying a house of my own?

I'm not trying to pick on Billy,but he just happens to be the richest person in the world right now,so I used him as an example.

Fair enough, let's go to an even more extreme example. How does the existence of a trust-funder who inherited ten billion dollars without doing a speck of work -- an idiot who guzzles champagne, snorts cocaine, has his own jet airplane but never uses his brain -- harm your chances of succeeding at whatever career path you choose to pursue?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Phred]
    #1915169 - 09/14/03 11:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well said as always. :smile:

I am one of the most anti-consumers I have ever known.  I live it.  I make my own soap, haven't had tv reception in 15+ years, I rarely if ever go to malls, I raise my own organic food, I buy at least 90% of my clothes at thift stores and most of my books are second hand.

Here is what I also don't do.

Tell other people how to live or tell them that buying things is wrong.

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