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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: ]
    #1915347 - 09/14/03 12:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"New wealth can be created by investing and producing things. "

yes but most wealth is tied up in currency speculation!

adam smith would be VERY upset to see the way WE run capitalism!


"Here is what I also don't do.

Tell other people how to live or tell them that buying things is wrong. "

well personally I do what I want to when it comes to subverting a mall for example, and with NEVER ENDING messages of BUY BUY BUY.........ignore that waste and the ending of human potential.......BUY BUY......BUY

then why the hell would it be wrong to post a thing here or there or make up something clever on phtoshop, about shopping less

can a man not use his vioce?
or did you say what you did as an easy excuse for not using yours



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1915460 - 09/14/03 01:04 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
yes but most wealth is tied up in currency speculation!




Now thats a stretch if I ever saw one. Care to back that up? (I don't really expect you to be able to)



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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1915499 - 09/14/03 01:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

he didn't when i asked him.

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1915510 - 09/14/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Currency speculation is actually a small percent of the financial market. Bonds are the most commonly held items, then stocks.

The thing is, materialism, as a form of attachment, can cause suffering, but what should the soltion be? To down people that buy things? Thats more of an ego-based jealousy rather than an honest solution. Should the government just stop people that, for whatever reason, do have more money, from purchasing nice things? Maybe we could put a ban on Ferarri's? Since the richest percentage of america pays the same dollar amount of taxes as the entire lower class, maybe we should cut these people some slack?

Alot of things that are considered materialism really, in my opionon, aren't that bad relatively. Lets say that I want a 7 series BMW, or a lamborghini. Well, I have to have a car (in America and other natiosn with deplorable public transportation) so what makes having a BMW or a Ferarri more "materialistic" than having an old Yugo?

I think that the basis of this problem is that the "have nots" are extremely judgmental and jealous of the "haves". Bill Gates has alot of money, and most people that I know don't compare with his income or liquidity levels, but that doesn't make him a "bad person" nor does it mean that his actions are wrong. If people don't have some incentive to reward them for ingenuity, hard work, genius, creativity and the stick-to-it-ivness to really build and run a company, or create some product, what is the point in doing so? If Gates was told that he could make popular software and do everything he was doing now, in a company sense, but was only going to make as much money as a McDonalds Drive Thru Technician, what would be his incentive to do so?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: lysergic]
    #1915525 - 09/14/03 01:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I think materialism is a bad thing for the individual who is caught up in it. It does not bring happiness (not by itself anyway) and it is a personal problem. That being said there is nothing I could or should do to stop people from being materialistic as it is their personal choice.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: ]
    #1915527 - 09/14/03 01:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I would like to clear a few simple things up if I may.

1: There is a limited amount of wealth in the world. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it was z@z that said that the amount in the world has been increasing over the years. Not really, we are just taking it out of the environment. A vein of iron under two miles of overburden can be turned into pots and pans - until we run out of iron. Now, I have heard people say that technology will solve all of the problems about depletion of the environment. Maybe so, but I would rather not find out.

2: Producing and consuming are basically the same problem. We produce the things that we buy.

3: Someone on here said that when you buy something, you are taking wealth away from someone else but it's still their decision. I feel dumb explaining this, but I am not talking about a direct transaction. After years of buildup of capital into the hands of a few, many people are now born into situations where they have nothing. Nobody chooses to be born with nothing. Those people have not made any poor decisions and have DONE NOTHING WRONG!


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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915541 - 09/14/03 01:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
3: Someone on here said that when you buy something, you are taking wealth away from someone else but it's still their decision. I feel dumb explaining this, but I am not talking about a direct transaction. After years of buildup of capital into the hands of a few, many people are now born into situations where they have nothing. Nobody chooses to be born with nothing. Those people have not made any poor decisions and have DONE NOTHING WRONG!



Many people are born with nothing, and yes they did nothing wrong. You seem to think people deserve something for nothing when this is simply not the case. Many who are born with nothing go on to have a lot. We do not have a caste system here in the USA. As an examply my father was born poor. Very poor. Now he is anything but poor because he bettered himself through education and hard work. No one gave him anything.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915686 - 09/14/03 02:30 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

clam_dude writes:

There is a limited amount of wealth in the world.

Incorrect. There is an ever-increasing amount of wealth in the world. You are not seriously trying to claim that all the wealth available today owned by almost seven billion people has existed for tens of thousands of years, can you? No, that wealth was produced (and then accumulated) by millennia of productive human effort. In fact, one hell of a lot of wealth that once existed has been lost forever, through wars and natural disasters.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it was z@z that said that the amount in the world has been increasing over the years. Not really, we are just taking it out of the environment.

It was me, and we are not "just taking it out of the environment". You haven't thought this through. Have you ever bought an objective lens for a microscope? That lens is made from maybe an ounce of iron and a few grams of silica (essentially purified sand), both of which are abundant and reusable. If you walked up to a guy in a laboratory and offered to sell him a chunk of iron ore and a handful of sand for twenty bucks, he'd look at you like you had bugs on your eyeballs. Offer to sell him that same stuff fashioned into a Zeiss microscope objective lens for twenty bucks and he'd leap at the chance. What is the difference between a useless mix of earth and an object of value? Productive human effort.

A vein of iron under two miles of overburden can be turned into pots and pans - until we run out of iron.

Pretty much the only resources that are not reusable are the fossil fuels we burn to produce energy. Almost all metals, most glass and paper and plastic and other durable materials are reusable. That is how scrapyards have remained in business for over a hundred years, after all.

After years of buildup of capital into the hands of a few, many people are now born into situations where they have nothing.

For virtually all of recorded human history prior to the Industrial Revolution and Capitalism, it wasn't just many people who were born into situations where they had nothing, it was all but a tiny percentage. Today, the average Western worker lives a lifestyle of relative luxury that would boggle the minds of the most privileged despots of old, let alone the minds of the poor saps they ruled.

Nobody chooses to be born with nothing.

What's your point? In pre-Industrial, pre-Capitalist times, if you were born with nothing, you died with nothing no matter what you did. There was no opportunity to better yourself no matter how great your desire to do so. That is far from true for those living in the Western world today. (It unfortunately remains true today for those living under totalitarian regimes, but hopefully over time those forms of government will become less common and perhaps even vanish entirely.)

My father came from a dirt-poor farming community. I mean DIRT poor. He finished eighth grade, then went to work. He worked at the only jobs someone with an eighth-grade education could get. He paid to educate himself further, and got better and better jobs. He is now retired, and owns his own three bedroom house. He and my mother have enough to live out the rest of their lives in modest comfort.

It wasn't his fault he was born with nothing. But neither is it his fault that others were born with nothing. His eventual success at overcoming the obstacles he faced in life in no way prevents others from doing the same. The fact that he now owns a house free and clear doesn't prevent anyone else from owning a house. It certainly doesn't worsen the plight of some goatherd in sub-Saharan Africa or in a village in Viet Nam or Tibet.

pinky


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Phred]
    #1915728 - 09/14/03 02:52 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"To down people that buy things? Thats more of an ego-based jealousy rather than an honest solution."


ya SURE!!

thats it its not the FACT the OVERCONSUMPTION is killing the planet!(that includes US, for those of you that think "well I am not A PLANET", you live here!)

currency speculation was 10% in 1970 and from what I have read, and I will FIND IT, its up to about 95% now
if IT IS!
thats WAY TO HIGH

I remember seeing this oil tycoon say that "our currency speculation is just as important as our real world operations"

the thing is wether its as high as I say or not, rich people moving money around the world like its a casino has to STOP

there are REAL PEOPLE that are effected when these "big guys" move into , and then out of the counrty


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Phred]
    #1915777 - 09/14/03 03:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It unfortunately remains true today for those living under totalitarian regimes, but hopefully over time those forms of government will become less common and perhaps even vanish entirely.




So all the poverty in the world is due to poot government? I think not. A massive chunk of the blame has to be taken by the exploitative trading practices of western governments.


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Always Smi2le

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1915789 - 09/14/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Actually a lot of the blame goes to Western BANKS, rather than the governments.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1915802 - 09/14/03 03:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

My first point is for z@z who says that here in the US we do not have a caste system. You cannot argue that the poor are treated like the rich. They are in fact greatly looked down apon, even if they are born into poverty. But thats beside the point because I am not talking about the US. There are other countries were people are poor and will never have a chance to gain more wealth, no matter how hard they work.

pinksharkmark, you are correct about the human effort thing. I myself do believe that if we stopped taking out of the environment, we could create more wealth. But what we are really getting into is a discussion over the definition of wealth - is wealth knowledge, or power? Is it a useful object? - Jewlery does not serve a practical purpose. The problem is that we ARE increasing our level of wealth by taking from the environment. I do not mean that wealth only comes from the environment. I takes human labor to extract natural resources from the environment, to manufacture things with these resources, and to sell them. All of these combined things are what wealth is. Your point about the microscope lense is actually a good example of what I was saying in my first post about materialism. A microscope lense is an efficient use of knowledge in which one person's discovery will help others in the future. This is what I was saying about art and how one person can increase their level of happiness, or wealth of happiness, as well as someone else's. The problem I have is with material wealth.

You say: "Today, the average Western worker lives a lifestyle of relative luxury that would boggle the minds of the most privileged despots of old."

Again, I am talking about other parts of the world where its really not any better. You may say that these parts of the world, are slowly working their way towards becoming coutries such as the US. But if the entire world was as wealthy (in terms of material possesions) as we are, we would ruin our natural environment.


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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
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Loc: International waters
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915810 - 09/14/03 03:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"But if the entire world was as wealthy (in terms of material possesions) as we are, we would ruin our natural environment. "

everytime I say that

stupid people go.........well whats wrong with wanting nice things?


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OfflineCryptic
WarpedCndn

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 598
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915824 - 09/14/03 03:39 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I find that i have alot of things, and i would give it all up if it meant that i could spend a lifetime with my Fiance.

I could live with just food and water and her.. she makes me happy, it doesent matter what's going on anywhere in the world, when i am with her i am happy.

we laid side by side for 6 hours talking, and i was soo happy throughout the entire time.. we've gone for 10 hour walks.. it just seems that any amount of time spent with her is absolutly priceless..

Money cannot buy happiness, Happiness is what you make it


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-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

While the Trees Grow out of your Skin, Can i plant you so a forest will grow?
"When you want it, it goes away to Fast. Times you hate it always seem to last" - Marilyn Manson

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: ]
    #1915835 - 09/14/03 03:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

relativism, lack of ends, whatever you want to call it, no one will admit that gluttony is a sin.

well, it is. waste is a mortal sin.

the argument that trade is based on consent is propagated by traders, people who exist on the folly of others. I work in a shipping warehouse, were we sell plastic "pokers" so people who need something to push wood through to a saw blade without endangering their fingers. THEY'RE WORKING WITH FUCKING WOOD. these things cost like 6 bucks and we pack them in boxes and fill the empty space with plastic bubbles. to protect the plastic.

this is your "free" market, my friends, a "freedom" to be an absolute dumbass piece of shit. this is why america is immoral. people are starving, yet we're shipping plastic pokers.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915860 - 09/14/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
There are other countries were people are poor and will never have a chance to gain more wealth, no matter how hard they work.




That's true, but if you look at the political/economic systems of those countries I highly doubt you will find much freedom or capitalism.

It isn't our overconsumption that is hurting these people it is their system of government.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1915875 - 09/14/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
"But if the entire world was as wealthy (in terms of material possesions) as we are, we would ruin our natural environment. "

everytime I say that

stupid people go.........well whats wrong with wanting nice things?




Please show how having wealth ruins the environment. Back it up. I'm not even debating you right now I just want to see some evidence.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Cryptic]
    #1915912 - 09/14/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I could live with just food and water and her.. she makes me happy, it doesent matter what's going on anywhere in the world, when i am with her i am happy.



I suspect you'd want toothbrushes and toothpaste as well as soap.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1915930 - 09/14/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

What I am saying is that we owe these countries much of our wealth. The debts alone that many third world coutries have are keeping them in the rut that they're in.
Having more wealth does ruin the environment. For example, there is enough food in the world for everyone, but the first world countries are eating more food than they are proportionately entitled to. It is impossible for the entire world to eat as much food as we are. Eating too much food, by the way, is harmfull for the environment because of our waste. Factories and cars, pollute a huge amount. Another big concern is the number of trees and natural ecosystems that we are destroying in the name of urban sprall, in which cars are a nessecity.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1915940 - 09/14/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
What I am saying is that we owe these countries much of our wealth. The debts alone that many third world coutries have are keeping them in the rut that they're in.




We give third world countries money. Constantly. They do not owe us money.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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