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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1,715
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
Problems with Materialism
    #1906086 - 09/11/03 04:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I personally believe that Materialism is the basic reason behind many injustices in the world, and, of course the huge class seperations. There is an assumption in North America that more stuff (esspecially things that cost lots of money) will make you happier. Of course, when you first think about it, you say, "No. Everyone knows that money can't buy happiness." But when I look at how consumerism dominates our society, I am not so sure this is common knowledge. (Although its a common catch phrase that's thrown around).

What I am trying to say is that art (be it music, painting, dance, or even language, etc...) is the most efficient and cost effective way to be happy. A pen and paper may cost a few dollars, but the level of joy that it might bring can be priceless. I myself am a musician. I have come to realize now that my favorite thing in life is music. You could not pay me any amount of money to stop playing music. My guitar cost me a fair bit, but the level of satisfaction that I have recieved from playing it is priceless.

In our society, and esspecially in North America, the value of something is almost always measured by its price (The more expensive one is better). People therefore want more things that cost more money. The problem with this system is that when one person gains something, another person loses. The benifit of art (music is a good example) is that one person can gain happiness, while sharing it with someone else.

What are your thoughts on this?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906117 - 09/11/03 04:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

My thoughts are that when many bitch about materialism, it's because they're pissed they don't have more themselves.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1,715
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1906132 - 09/11/03 04:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I can honestly tell you that if I can make enough money to support my sorry musician ass (enough that I can play music instead of having another job), I will be perfectly happy. You could give me a nice car, but I would rarely drive it because I would rather be playing music on instruments that happen to cost less money.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906157 - 09/11/03 05:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well you'll notice I said many.

You strike me as a young guy. You'll find as you get older that you'll probably want more. A car that doesn't break down. Nicer instruments. Stuff for your significant other and kids should you ever have them.

There's nothing wrong with wanting lots of stuff.

Just be happy first. That's priceless.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906770 - 09/11/03 08:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what "injustices", and how do you define "class seperations"?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1907278 - 09/11/03 10:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
The problem with this system is that when one person gains something, another person loses.



If I go out and buy a new car who loses something? Is it the guy with the job making the car? The guy selling the car? I fail to see how me gaining something causes anyone to lose anything. If anything it (gasp) helps others.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1908139 - 09/12/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. That statement is not true at all.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: z@z.com]
    #1908528 - 09/12/03 04:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If I go out and buy a new car who loses something? Is it the guy with the job making the car? The guy selling the car? I fail to see how me gaining something causes anyone to lose anything. If anything it (gasp) helps others.




So everything is ok with the world, we are doing all we possibly can to make the world a better place!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1909029 - 09/12/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
A pen and paper may cost a few dollars, but the level of joy that it might bring can be priceless. 

  My guitar cost me a fair bit, but the level of satisfaction that I have recieved from playing it is priceless.




You sound like a credit card commercial.

Pen-0.99$

Notebook-1.99$

Look on clam_dudes face while writing in his notebook- Priceless!

J/K
I am sorry.I thought it was funny. :tongue: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1,715
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: sirreal]
    #1909135 - 09/12/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

First of all, z@z said that buying a car does not take away from anyone else. True - it does not take away directly from one person. But on a more general level, the amount of wealth in the first world has taken away from the amount of wealth in poorer countries. Many products are made in other parts of the world where people are payed pennies to make them. You can say that they have a choice to work or not and that we are actually helping them, like z@z said. But they dont have another option. Also, with cars specifically, what about environmental costs?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1909144 - 09/12/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Theres no point building stuff over here where you have to pay minimum wages and have working laws to abide by.
All you need is a a large hut a few slaves, children will suffice and a few sowing machines and viola.... Capatalism in all its glory


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1909153 - 09/12/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Sad but true


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1909161 - 09/12/03 12:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've just realised how terrible my english was in that post ah well....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Anonymous

Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: clam_dude]
    #1909167 - 09/12/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You can say that they have a choice to work or not and that we are actually helping them, like z@z said. But they dont have another option.

they absolutely do. they don't have to work there.... unless of course they truly have no other option for survival, in which case such-and-such an employer is not harming them in any way by allowing them to work and live when they would otherwise starve.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: ]
    #1909175 - 09/12/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Autonomous perhaps you should stop taking things so literally.
Tongue-in-cheek my friend....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (09/12/03 12:27 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1909191 - 09/12/03 12:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

My thoughts are that when many bitch about materialism, it's because they're pissed they don't have more themselves.




You took the words right out of my mouth....errr hands.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
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Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1909206 - 09/12/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

My thoughts are that when many bitch about materialism, it's because they're pissed they don't have more themselves.




You took the words right out of my mouth....errr hands.





I would agree that alot of whiners are so for this reason. Not all though.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1909208 - 09/12/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the problem with capitalism period is the fact that a capitalist's only concern is the bottom line.

The migrant workers that get paid minimun wage to pave streets will die by the age of 50 from inhaling harmful particulates. Does the city give them good health insurance? Hell no! That would fuck up the bottom line and force the city to raise rich people's taxes, wouldn't it. Oh well. Plenty more migrant workers where those came from.

Anyone ever see fight club? If the cost of a recall for a defective car part is greater than the amount expected to be paid in settlements from accidents directly related to that defective part, they don't do a recall! Makes sense in terms of the bottom line doesn't it? As long as profits are maximized, who cares how many people die! Plenty more consumers where they came from! (BTW, this formula actually was used in the 70's before a leak in GM's corporate office created a big PR stink...)

The point is that when businesses focus solely on the bottom line, people fall through the cracks. There are some really heinous and morally unconscionable things that make perfect sense in terms of capitalism, third world slavery being one of those.

I think capitalism is a pretty good economiuc system, but not by itself. It needs to be balanced by morals and ethics, since intrinsically it has none. Ethics are not pure capitalism's concern. Pure capitalism's only concern is the bottom line. Period, paragraph, end of memo.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1,715
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: ]
    #1909225 - 09/12/03 12:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You make it sound like the employer is there to help them. Not true. The second that there is somewhere else that will provide cheaper labour, the company will move its factory and screw over all of the previous employers.
Im not saying that we have to stop employing people in the third world. We should just treat them better.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Anonymous

Re: Problems with Materialism [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1909246 - 09/12/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The migrant workers that get paid minimun wage to pave streets will die by the age of 50 from inhaling harmful particulates.

in which case they're living about twice as long as most humans to have lived have.

If the cost of a recall for a defective car part is greater than the amount expected to be paid in settlements from accidents directly related to that defective part, they don't do a recall! Makes sense in terms of the bottom line doesn't it?

such a policy is illegal and could lead to not only an extremely hefty civil suit, but criminal charges as well. if someone knowingly sells a dangerous, defective product trying to make a little extra $$$, and someone is killed, that's manslaughter. such a policy is not permissible by our body of laws nor in capitalist theory.

(btw... fight club is clever and excellently filmed, but its pretty lacking in anything besides surface content, and its pedestal status amongst quasi-philosophical\political and wanna-be rebel\anarchist highschool males is annoying and telling to say the least).

The point is that when businesses focus solely on the bottom line, people fall through the cracks.

vague, untestable generalization. say something specific.

There are some really heinous and morally unconscionable things that make perfect sense in terms of capitalism, third world slavery being one of those.

slavery is not a voluntary transaction and is a deviation from capitalist principles.


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