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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Icelander]
    #4008424 -

Icelander said:
Unless you're against tool-making, your point doesn't make any sense.
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I don't get this statement? He didn't say that. It sounds like he just realizes that ownership can breed contention and greed.

I mean he did say that this is just what he would like to see happen. I don't see why theoreticaly humans could not, create, build and prosper with out a capitilist ownership game.


Quote:
People need incentive to use their labor for the benefit of others, so they exchange the products of their labor with others.



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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008433 -

Paradigm said:
Icelander said:
Unless you're against tool-making, your point doesn't make any sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't get this statement? He didn't say that. It sounds like he just realizes that ownership can breed contention and greed.

I mean he did say that this is just what he would like to see happen. I don't see why theoreticaly humans could not, create, build and prosper with out a capitilist ownership game.


Quote:
People need incentive to use their labor for the benefit of others, so they exchange the products of their labor with others.




How about the incentive of love and sharing. parents do that with their children a lot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Icelander]
    #4008439 -

Parents do that with their children because they are biologically predisposed to do so. Do an experiment for me, will you? If you have a job, turn down your next paycheck, or throw it away. Better yet, do this for a month. A year, even. See how long you can make it working purely out of the goodness of your heart.


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008440 -

Quote:
People need incentive to use their labor for the benefit of others


Benefitting others for some would be incentive enough.

Quote:
so they exchange the products of their labor with others.


Or they could just live like little children, sharing all their toys (and bodies) with each other in a paradise setting.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008446 -

Quote:
Or they could just live like little children, sharing all their toys (and bodies) with each other in a paradise setting.


Have you ever actually seen little children playing? One of them takes a toy from another one, and the other yells "mine!" Property is a concept innate to human nature.


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008448 -

Paradigm said:
Parents do that with their children because they are biologically predisposed to do so. Do an experiment for me, will you? If you have a job, turn down your next paycheck, or throw it away. Better yet, do this for a month. A year, even. See how long you can make it working purely out of the goodness of your heart.


Because of the greed of others, it would not work if only one man did it.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008450 -

If ownership objectively breeds any negative behavior, than every single person who owned anything would exhibit all such behaviors, and we all know that this isn't the case in actuality.
The observation that ownership creates disturbing actions may be accurate, but the logic behind it is faulty.

This indicates that there is a deeper root that would have to be rooted out for any genuine transformation of human behavior - and it certainly isn't any political system, nor will it ever be from changing any extensions of mankind's mind, i.e. society.

A weed cannot be killed by pruning it's petals.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008459 -

What you call greed is simply cost-benefit analysis. People's labor is valuable, and they're not going to just work so that other people will be happy. They need to be compensated in exchange for their labor.


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4008460 -

what would you say this "deeper root" is? according to the bible the "root of all evil" is the "love of money".

Therefore get rid of all money, and you will get rid of all evil.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008464 -

Paradigm said:
Parents do that with their children because they are biologically predisposed to do so. Do an experiment for me, will you? If you have a job, turn down your next paycheck, or throw it away. Better yet, do this for a month. A year, even. See how long you can make it working purely out of the goodness of your heart.


Ok, once again this is just how some of us would like to see it. Get that part!

Now I go to Burning Man and one of the things I like is that most of them practice gifting instead of barter or selling. The change in how we relate is remarkable.

I would be glad to give up all my paychecks forever and my job to, if you and everyone else did also. Some are too greedy and fearful to do that so I guess we don't right now. It might not always be this way. To ask me to give up my paycheck in this paradigm makes no sense and you just said it to "win" an argument.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008466 -

Smallworlds said:
what would you say this "deeper root" is? according to the bible the "root of all evil" is the "love of money".

Therefore get rid of all money, and you will get rid of all evil.


The Bible also said a woman was created from the rib of a man. I wouldn't give it too much credibility.


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008474 -

Therefore get rid of all money, and you will get rid of all evil.

Again, same fallacy. Money or any form of currency are objectively neutral in meaning, just as these black squiggly lines on your computer screen have no inherent meaning. Any meaning projected onto such percept, depends entirely upon the subjective psyche of the perciever, and not the percept.

If there were absolutely no money or any concievable form of currency in this world, does that mean that every human being will instantly be magically cured of ignorance?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008477 -

Paradigm said:
What you call greed is simply cost-benefit analysis.  People's labor is valuable, and they're not going to just work so that other people will be happy.  They need to be compensated in exchange for their labor.


I can argue that people's labor is actually only valuable in that it produces things which have an "actual value". The rewards of their labors can be the goods produced themselves, which are all then shared.

And if that was "reality" as you say, it would be a better one, because there would be no more exploitation, greed, envy, bitterness over finances, thefts would cease to exist, all of these negative concepts would be erased because without the money nescessary to define them, they would lose all meaning.

Class dismissed, I'm about to go trade some "meaningless green trading coupons" for some Chinese food that I really want. :grin:


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Icelander]
    #4008479 -

Icelander said:
Now I go to Burning Man and one of the things I like is that most of them practice gifting instead of barter or selling. The change in how we relate is remarkable.


Burning Man tickets cost about $250. If you were hoping to use that as an example of altruistic behavior, you've failed miserably.

Quote:
I would be glad to give up all my paychecks forever and my job to, if you and everyone else did also. Some are too greedy and fearful to do that so I guess we don't right now. It might not always be this way. To ask me to give up my paycheck in this paradigm makes no sense and you just said it to "win" an argument.


How about getting a second job, and tearing up all those paychecks? You'll still have your income from the other job, but you'll also get to work extra for the benefit of everyone. Wouldn't that be great? I'm sure you're just itching for the opportunity to do so.


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008486 -

Paradigm said:
Icelander said:
Now I go to Burning Man and one of the things I like is that most of them practice gifting instead of barter or selling. The change in how we relate is remarkable.


Burning Man tickets cost about $250.  If you were hoping to use that as an example of altruistic behavior, you've failed miserably.

OK once again you're not listening. I said at Burning Man they practice gifting. Boy are you a nit pick.

I do have a second job as a dog adoption counsler for the animal shelter. I do it for free!

You totally sound invested in the system. I can feel the anger rising. :mushroom2:

Quote:
I would be glad to give up all my paychecks forever and my job to, if you and everyone else did also. Some are too greedy and fearful to do that so I guess we don't right now. It might not always be this way. To ask me to give up my paycheck in this paradigm makes no sense and you just said it to "win" an argument.


How about getting a second job, and tearing up all those paychecks?  You'll still have your income from the other job, but you'll also get to work extra for the benefit of everyone.  Wouldn't that be great?  I'm sure you're just itching for the opportunity to do so.



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (04/03/05 02:52 PM)

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4008492 -

Quote:
If there were absolutely no money or any concievable form of currency in this world, does that mean that every human being will instantly be magically cured of ignorance?


Ignorance means to lack knowledge of something. And since no one knows everything, I don't see how varying degrees of ignorance is dangerous.

If anything it is our over-knowledge which is dangerous, ignorance is bliss.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Icelander]
    #4008496 -

Sorry about stickin my reply in the middle of a quote. :blush:

I got my ticket for $185 by buying early. :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Silversoul]
    #4008505 -

damn, i'm never gonna get outta here and get my food.
:lol:

Quote:
How about getting a second job, and tearing up all those paychecks? You'll still have your income from the other job, but you'll also get to work extra for the benefit of everyone. Wouldn't that be great? I'm sure you're just itching for the opportunity to do so.



That's why money is greed. Would you grow a crop of Tomatoes and then smash them? Your "test" is illogical because you asked him to waste his labor as proof that he disagrees with having a monetary system.

Ask him if he would work a second job to donate all of the money to the Tsunami victims, and perhaps he might say yes.

Ask him if he would grow that crop of Tomatoes to donate to a local homeless shelter.

Charity and good-will does not = waste.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008507 -

Smallworlds said:
I can argue that people's labor is actually only valuable in that it produces things which have an "actual value". The rewards of their labors can be the goods produced themselves, which are all then shared.


First of all, value is subjective.  There is no value in an object other than what an individual assigns to it.  Second, it's simply not realistic for people to share everything they produce.  Even Marx, the most notorious collectivist of all, recognized the need for personal possessions.  Does everyone get to share your bed?  How about your car?  Or your toothbrush?  Some things are finite in nature, and cannot be shared equally.

Quote:
And if that was "reality" as you say, it would be a better one, because there would be no more exploitation, greed, envy, bitterness over finances, thefts would cease to exist, all of these negative concepts would be erased because without the money nescessary to define them, they would lose all meaning.


This "reality" might as well have unicorns and dragons.

Quote:
Class dismissed, I'm about to go trade some "meaningless green trading coupons" for some Chinese food that I really want. :grin:


Oh, I'm sure the guy there would be willing to share the food with you.  :rolleyes:


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Re: nothing personal, it's just business [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4008523 -

Smallworlds said:
That's why money is greed. Would you grow a crop of Tomatoes and then smash them? Your "test" is illogical because you asked him to waste his labor as proof that he disagrees with having a monetary system.


How is his labor wasted without money?  I thought money was what you were protesting against.  He will have contributed his labor for the benefit of mankind.

Quote:
Ask him if he would work a second job to donate all of the money to the Tsunami victims, and perhaps he might say yes.


But...but...money is evil!  :mad:

Quote:
Charity and good-will does not = waste.


And charity requires goods.  The rich donate more to charity than the poor.  Why?  Because they have more money.  Sharing is all good and well, but only as a supplement to trade.


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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