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OfflineHagbardCeline
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What is consciousness? What is a person?
    #1614949 - 06/06/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What defines consciousness? Is it merely the ability to reflect on oneself? Self awareness?

What makes a person a person? Do you they have to be human? Can an animal be a person?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinespiritshaper
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1616081 - 06/07/03 04:45 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yes consciousness is meerly the ability to reflect on ones self as you said. this can be seen in most great apes, when they see themselves in the mirror they can recoginize that they're seeing themselves and therefore have a conscious. whereas lesser apes cannot recoginize that they're seeing a reflection of themselves and will go into a frenzy hitting the mirror because they cannot make the connection.

our DNA is what makes us what we are (i know you already know this but thats really the only awnser thats scientifically proven).

a person is a human so an animal cannot be a person. great apes can have similar qualities as people and can almost think the way humans can but they're still very basic compared to humans.

hope this helps you, these are just my views on the information you've provided.

laterz,
Spiritshaper


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Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.



Edited by spiritshaper (06/07/03 04:48 AM)


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Offlinenubious
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1616180 - 06/07/03 07:17 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

they can recoginize that they're seeing themselves and therefore have a conscious

From what I understand of this statement, whether you recognize yourself in a mirror after never being introduced to one before is a result based on whether or not you have consciousness... doesn't that seem rather inconclusive? Almost, cop-out-ish?


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: nubious]
    #1616223 - 06/07/03 09:26 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Its not the only indicator of self awareness but its a fairly easy to test on animals.


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1616225 - 06/07/03 09:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cogito ergo sum


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1616257 - 06/07/03 10:26 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure that is conclusive. While it can be a good indicator, I not sure that the animal must recognize itself in the mirror to be self aware.

As for the person, if we were to ever make an artificial intelligence in a human like form, would that be person? What if weren't in human form? Here is the definition, but this is by no means what I am talking about, but it doesn't say that it must be human to be a person.

Main Entry: per?son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask ?more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL ? sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a : archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
- per?son?hood /-"hud/ noun
- in person : in one's bodily presence


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinenubious
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1616305 - 06/07/03 11:22 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cogito ergo sum

Thinking doesn't neccassarilly mean self recognition...
Is thinking the same thing as conscioussness? If so, could it not be I think, therefor I am conscious?


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: nubious]
    #1616690 - 06/07/03 03:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cogito ergo sum ergo penso?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What is consciousness? What is a person? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1617957 - 06/08/03 11:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness is the Ground of Being, it is the infra-structure of existence. The archaic word for consciousness is Spirit. Spirit, as 'Great Spirit,' in the Native American usage, refers to GOD. So does the Biblical use of 'Holy Spirit.' This too is GOD. Philosophers from Plato, through Plotinus to Hegel, to Ken Wilber have maintained this position. So have the mystical theologians, who often remain only a step or two away from excommunication, execution, or exile. People like Meister Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich, because for them, we as personalities, have our origins, our true identities, our individual consciousness (soul or spirit with a small 's.'), deriving from GOD.

In this sense, GOD is the Infinite Ocean of Consciousness, and we (personalities, souls) are temporary 'waves' on the Ocean. We come into being, move in time, dissipate and disappear in 'apparent' death. We fear the dissolution of our selves, because we are too busy experiencing ourselves as 'waves' instead of experiencing ourselves as the Ocean of which we are made, of which we came into 'individual' form, and from which we have never, and will never, be separated. We only see ourselves in terms of our 'wave' self, which is to say, our bodies and minds (with all its components). We fail to experience our Eternal Nature, while living in the midst of temporal worldly activities. Most people do not know which part of their life experience to [bracket] out as the Eternal Presence, and so, to continue the analogy, they are 'lost at sea.' They experience all the existential alienation, isolation and angst of human beinghood that is unaware of GOD, the very Ground of Being. Theologians have long called this state damnation, and Hell - alienation from GOD. Not just a metaphysical construct - a very human experience.

Sentient beings - animals - have varying degrees of self-consciousness. It is difficult to know the truth from our human projections, but, my Dachshund with whom I lived for more than 14 years had a personality. He had memories which he demonstrated, moods, feelings, many personality attributes. He was not human of course. Have you ever seen a cat, whose nature is to move gracefully, stumble or fall, and then right itself with an air of momentary embarrassment? How much self-consciousness, or reflexive awareness an animal has is just not possible to know. On the other hand, dogs have been known to pine away for a deceased master, and die themselves. Rhinos stamp out fires and have been known to apply a kind of artificial respiration to drowned animals of other species. Ferral human children have in fact been raised by primates (Tarzan was taken from a historical incident) and wild dogs. Life IS Consciousness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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