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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: Silversoul]
    #3746223 -

First of all, who the fuck is Godwin that what he says is a law at all. And if you don't think that mentioning the annihilation of several million Jews in WW2 BY NAZIS is relevant to a history of the founding of Israel you are beyond the reach of reason.

As to Paradigm, they didn't kick them out of their homes. The Palestinians who are refugees are Palestinians who took sides with the Arab invaders and their descendants. They backed the wrong pony and now they're paying. Tough shit. There are quite a few Palestinians living in Israel today.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3746273 -

Quit bringing up the Nazis, it's puerile.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3746275 -

zahudulallah said:
For the evangelical right which spear-heads U.S. support for Israel, the Jewish Nation must remain more powerful than the Arabs/Muslims in order for the second coming of Christ to be possible.


It seems you have brought up valid arguments to support this claim..
So the responsibility of this whole mess goes, once again, to the Bible huh?

btw, when's that second coming of christ suposed to be?

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3746284 -

zahudulallah said:
ss7, I associate the word with Protestant influence.


JFK was a Protestant? You really need to brush up on your American history if you are going to attempt such criticism. As it stands, you're trying to blow smoke without even taking a puff.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3746286 -

zahudulallah said:
Quit bringing up the Nazis, it's puerile.


No, it's not. It's historical fact.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3746321 -

I'm quite aware that JFK was a Catholic, but that's meaningless in a country founded under the Protestant God.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3746330 -

zappaisgod said:
zahudulallah said:
Quit bringing up the Nazis, it's puerile.


No, it's not. It's historical fact.


There's no doubt that Nazis once existed.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: exclusive58]
    #3746335 -

Religious people. I don't blame the Bible. That's like blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3746382 -

Well one mustn't forget that in the bible was written that the land that Israel occupies was referred to as the "promised land". Religious people didn't come up with that idea, "God" did, or so it says in the bible...

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3746398 -

Anyway, Randal i thank you for clearing things up for me, your answers to my question seem well grounded.
What's your say on that whole "safekeeping israel for the 2nd coming of christ" idea though?

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: exclusive58]
    #3746399 -

If one interprets it that way. That's the problem with religion and fundamentalism.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3746417 -

Interpret, inschmerpret, God gave the land to the Jews. I you don't like it, take it up with God. If the Muslims want it, they'll have to convert. Now if you don't believe in God, we may have a starting point for an agreement...


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3746465 -

Goddamn it, why couldn't god say that the jew's promised land is somewhere safe, like in Canada or something...oh i know, cuz when the bible was written the presence of the american continent was unknown, duh.

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3746472 -

:grin:


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: exclusive58]
    #3746485 -


What's your say on that whole "safekeeping israel for the 2nd coming of christ" idea though?

I think it is doubtful. I constantly hear from people how most U.S. politicians throughout history are nutso Christians who are out to convert the world, but I don't see much evidence to support that. I don't think most rational Americans think it is necessary to safeguard the Holy Land for the second coming of Christ. When I hear people expressing support and affinity for Israel it seems to be because that country is a democracy, they have been a close ally for a long time, and Judaism is closely tied to Christianity.

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3746499 -

zappaisgod said:
The United States refuses to stand by and watch fascist thugs yet again exterminate huge numbers of Jews.  In the 30s and 40s it was the Nazis.  After 1948 it was the Arabs.  If the UN grants Israel a state in Palestine and then stands by and allows their neighbors who vastly out number them to destroy them, they have essentially created a large concentration camp.  Further, the extent of US aid to Israel has by and large been limited to money and material.  They supply all of their own soldiers.  And those soldiers beat the living shit out of the vastly wealthier and more numerous Arabs who invaded them.  The time for debating support for Israel was immediately after WW2.  That debate over, it's now, and has been, time to make sure that we are not just rounding them up in one place so they can be chewed up in one bite size piece.

Do not overestimate how much concrete support we have given Israel.  No American soldier was ever sent there to fight.  And never underestimate the impact of the cold war with the USSR.  It was very much in our interests to have a counterbalance to the proximate enemy that was the Soviet Union.  That the benighted forces of Islamofascism were so inept that with over 10 to 1 population AND resource advantage they failed in their murderous attempts is a credit to the tenacity and valor of the Jews, something Americans admire by definition.


:thumbup:


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: exclusive58]
    #3746505 -

Now that you mention it, isn't New York city 'Jerusalem on the Hudson?'


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3746853 -

Godwin's law:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

See? no value judgement. This discussion obviously does follow Godwin's law, but since the Nazis are actually relavent, who cares?



Anyway, Christian fundamentalists are big supports of aid for Israel, and though they're stronger today then they were after WW2, I don't think they're a new phenominon. There is a strong Jewish lobby in the US; we have long standing strategic interest in the region, and have more cultural afinity for Jews than Arabs, since many Jews lived in Europe for so long; commitments were made at the end of WW2; etc. etc.

US support for israel has been significant. According to http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm , the total cost 1949-1997 to US taxpayers of direct aid to Israel (Aid + intrest) is now  $134,791,507,200 - $85 billion total aid.

US aid for Egypt over the same period has now totalled $58 billion ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/egyptaid.html ) - no figgure for costs to the US taxpayer including interest, though you should note that this is similar to the amount of aid we pay Israel.

These payments ammount, in a sense, to bribes. We pay the Egyptians and Israelis (and build their militaries) not to fight - and to be on our side during the cold war, of course.

Today, I think the Israelis can probably stand on their own. I'd support a gradual phasing out of aid over the long term (20 years, maybe), as well as using aid as a lever over the short term to help establish a Palestinian state. Of course, there is the problem that the Palestinian power structure is beyond shitty, but... :shrug:

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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3750160 -

Want to know why the arabs didn't like the jews in 1948? Jews were never the majority in early Palestine. Even when the UN divided Palestine in 1947 there were only 600k jews living in Palestine and over twice as many arabs. It has nothing to do with who they sided with. Imagine living in a country where a vocal religious minority gains control and pushes you out. Would you be mad? fuck yeah... And because Israel is a religious state it is understandable (but not fair) that these crimes they have commited are associated with Judaism.

btw I'm Jewish... so please don't tell me I don't understand.


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Re: Israel, The 51st State [Re: gsmith]
    #3750209 -

The original question of this thread was why is the US such a staunch supporter of Israel, not why do the Arabs hate Israel. The question of whether or not the Jews should have been given a state is not germane to this thread. What is germane is that they were given a state and, given that condition, there is a certain obligation on the part of the grantors to at least give them a chance at success. As I wrote in my first post, there were also some cold war issues involved.

There is also a misconception about just how much they have been helped by the US. They don't get much more than Egypt gets. They have done most of the heavy lifting themselves. Presently, the most valuable help we give them is the continued thwarting of the genocidal asshats at the UN who keep trying to justify the extermination of Israel.

By the way, your Jewishness does not necessarily convey understanding. I know a great many Jews and they range from a former Mossad agent to the most hand-wringing, clueless upper West-side twits.


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