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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation
    #3634156 -

http://www.mycomasters.com/NonSterile.html

Anybody tried it out yet?


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3634300 -

it says it only applies to wood and sawdust - isn't it just a rehash of his peroxide manual?

i'd love a read of his breakthrough ideas, but i'm not paying for a 19 page manual when the same knowledge is bound to be here at the shroomery for free.


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buh

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: shirley knott]
    #3634302 -

shirley knott said:
i'd love a read of his breakthrough ideas, but i'm not paying for a 19 page manual when the same knowledge is bound to be here at the shroomery for free.


thats JUST the thought that came to my mind as i read anno's post.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: shirley knott]
    #3634440 -

> isn't it just a rehash of his peroxide manual?

It is a different concept, without peroxide.

" Non-sterile cultivation is a non-peroxide approach for growing healthy fruiting cultures of gourmet wood-decomposing mushrooms"


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3634478 -

I have the book, and though it is brief, it's worth buying. There are many useful ideas in it.

As for the technique, I have played a little, with some success. Using non-sterile substrates allows you in theory to do away with pressure cookers, HEPA, and peroxide, but it is hardly foolproof. You must be sure to have very clean, very healthy, fast growing spawn, clean substrate materials of optimal nutrition and pH, and you must incubate the cultures at ideal temperatures. Also, it requires a higher spawning rate.

I'm not yet sure if the trade off is worth it. It requires a lot of experimentation, but perhaps once all the parameters for a particular strain/species are worked out, it could work well.

- A

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3640816 -

i used to have to inoculate 36 of these trays (6 at a time) in a small indoor room. it was a pain in the ass, so i moved the process outdoors. as you can see in the picture, the inoculation is done in open air. wind blows all kinds of contams into the trays.



the trays are incubated in a semi clean room, before being moved into a clean grow room.



the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.

i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.


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Anno cock? Is that some kind of Greek liquer? -Geo's all-knowing sex slave
Scat's way better than mud cause it's warm. -Ythan 4/23/07

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3642329 -

>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

I bought the manual .
Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642345 -

Quote:
Anno said:
>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

I bought the manual .
Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.



isnt that just common wisdom anyway, talking working fast,
clean and provind good conditions shall get one contam free?

ive been doing all my work without glovebox / hepa
(since i blew my box a year back, a week after i fixed it and never repaired)
and so far my overall contam rate since i started
cultivating is below 10 jars.
peace ohm :mushroom2:

*edit*
the 10 leaves out the 6 jars that contammed due to my cat
lying around in the warm incubator, enjoying the funny feeling
of polyfill and ripping it out of the jars AAAAARGH !!!


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:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

Edited by ohmatic (01/18/05 06:22 AM)

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: ohmatic]
    #3642355 -

>isnt that just common wisdom anyway, talking working fast, clean

Read the above again, there is no talking about fast or (overly)clean


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642368 -

Quote:
the trays are incubated in a semi clean room, before being moved into a clean grow room.


lets take spawn run, big ammount of spawn to compost trays,
usually colonistion to 100% should be finished in a week.
pasteurized substrate shouldnt actually be affected during this time
and he isnt really having them out in the dirty anyway.

he spawn them in open air, allright, but incubation and fruiting
takes place in more or less clean surroundings and given that
spawning such a tray prolly takes couple minutes - that isnt such
a considerably long time.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642564 -

>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

> I bought the manual .
> Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.

There is a difference between this and what this book is suggesting, thought it may be irrelevant.

Pasteurized or composted substances have had "bad" competitors killed, while "good" ones remain.

NSC is about using substrates as is, even allowing potentially "bad" competitors to grow. If the other conditions for good colonization are met (as described in the book) then the mushroom will "win", even when bad contaminant fungi & bacteria are present. The fact the substrate is non-sterile is what allows this to happen, apparently. Either the mushroom is stimulated to grow better/faster in the presence of the other organisms, the other organisms are sufficiently inhibited, or both.

I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag, and though there were spots of mold here and there, the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit. A larger scale attempt failed, but I have doubts about the purity of my spawn, so more experiments are warranted.

- A

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3642667 -

>I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag,
>and though there were spots of mold here and there,
>the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit.

What mushroom fruited on this substrate?

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: wideweb]
    #3643011 -

>I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag,
>and though there were spots of mold here and there,
>the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit.

> What mushroom fruited on this substrate?

Pleurotus ostreatus

- A

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3644035 -

I dont see the big deal with contamination anyways. Its only terrribly important in the making of spawn. If you have a good strain it normaly can kick any competetors ass. As Red said above substrate doesnt have to be sterile. Its all about being faverable to mushroom growth not any mold or other fungi growth. I have worked in grow rooms that used a fan with fresh air being blown in meaning 100 percent unclean room.

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3650321 -

I'm new to mushroom cultivation, but I once read an old mushroom book that suggested using aerobically composted horse manure. The horse manure is mixed with straw and turned and watered every few days. The manure is decomposed by oxygen-breathing microorganisms, prossibly with the help of benificial fungi, though I'm not sure about that. In any case this method does not involve the mold and bacteria that infect sterile cultures.

just my 2 cents,
Peter

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3650956 -

people called bullshit on my outdoor karo tek and the notion that it might work if you mix up some karo with water and added a print to the mixture without sterlizing it. it would contam, it would indoors for sure but!!!
I have tried this a little bit outdoors with wood loving strains. You spray the mixture that hasnt germinated onto moist wood chips. After a few days i have noticed mycelium growing under the chips and sometimes blue mold. Here is the trick, i water it and it seems to was the mold away and it washed the karo away but the mycelium has a decent foot hold. The karo gives the spores that little extra kick to germinate and it searches for food (wood chips). It seems to be good to start ooutdoor beds without all the sterile shiznit


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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: tahoe]
    #3657747 -

Come to think of it, I don't get why we use sterile methods at all. When we take wood pellet feul and add nutrients, we might get more mushrooms out of each bale, but we also create an ideal environment for bacteria and mold by making the nutrients readily available.

Once organic matter has been composted, it is full of nutrients, but not in a form that invites "contaminants". I'm not sure of all the reasons behind it, but while peaches in your kitchen might get moldy, if you compost them, they decompose via microorganisms, and afterwards provide nutrients for plants and mushrooms but not for the mold and bacteria we hate.

Peter

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3657828 -

Not quite. Unless you are doing fancy, two-phase composting, then when you throw that peach into your compost pile, its being digested by molds and bacteria, "good" and "bad". There is no difference between microorganisms and contaminants, except when you want to exclude one or another of them from your cultures.

You can go too far, as well. Fully composted substrates have a good deal of their nutrients removed from them, especially carbon, which is released into the air as CO2, and which fungi could utilize for growth. Compost for plants is very different from compost for mushrooms, since plants don't require carbon, and only need the NPK and micronutritents that were bound up in the material.

There is something, however, in Wayne's NSC tek to the idea that other organisms can partially pre-digest some of the substrate, only to be themselves digested by the mushroom. I don't think he argues anywhere that this is a good thing, only that it is not a bad thing, assuming other factors are ideal. Molds and bacteria present in the substrate will be overcome, if the mushroom is the strongest/most abundant organism present.

- A

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3659361 -

Except when you are quick composting something, it is a different set of bacteria and fungi that are breaking the material down. The contaminants we find in mushroom cultures are not the heat loving ones that raise the temperature of a compost pile to 160 degrees.

[QUOTE]Compost for plants is very different from compost for mushrooms, since plants don't require carbon, and only need the NPK and micronutritents that were bound up in the material.[/QUOTE]

The compost needs are not really that different. While mushrooms need more nutrients to grow than plants do, this does not mean they need a different sort of substrate. Compost is made up of nitrogen-rich materials (such as horse manure) and carbon rich materials (such as straw). The result: A substrate containing all essential nutrients, inlcuding plenty of carbon. The reason fresh compost must be used is partly because it loses its nutritional value over time, and partly because other fungi eventually make use of the left-over carbon.

Peter

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3659992 -

Rubra -

I agree that the two types of compost are essentially similar, but one difference still is that the carbon in mushroom compost is a nutritional requirement, while in plant composts it is only structural.

In your earlier post you said you don't get why we use sterile methods at all. There is a simple reason: if you inoculate a sterile medium with your organism in a clean environment, it has _no_ competition for nutrients, and does exceptionally well. There is nothing "wrong" with sterilization, provided you can maintain sterility, aside from cost and labor.

Other methods like pasteurization, peroxides, and NSC are simply ways to avoid the complications of sterile techniques, and may or may not create their own sets of complications themselves.

Myself, I use all of these methods, as the situation requires, and am glad for the options.

Best
A

Ps. Welcome to the community!

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3660968 -

armedia said:
There is a simple reason: if you inoculate a sterile medium with your organism in a clean environment, it has _no_ competition for nutrients, and does exceptionally well.


OK, I guess that makes sense. It would make an interesting experiment - evaluating the cost-effectiveness of various methods...

Peter

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3677365 -

heh. funny. i've been working on deriving a gross costs per unit for awhile now.

i haven't progressed very much but assuming $10/hr for labor and 100% success rate (no contams or setbacks) a single quart jar of grain spawn (the "unit" in this particular question) has a gross cost (for me) of roughly $43 from start (soaking) to finish (fruiting). Note that some of the costs are only incurred once (like the containing jar) or infrequently (like filter discs that wear out). Energy costs impart a significant addition altho they can be hard to precisely quantify. Energy (electrical) is consumed at all stages (hot water, sterilising temperatures, incubation temperatures, air exchanging fans, drying fans).

I have been working on an extropalation worksheet to find the "sweet spot" for the most efficient production volume. The data is rather sparse but diverse at the moment because I utilise so many methods and species. More to come in a year or so! heh


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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: debianlinux]
    #3677435 -

Quote:
debianlinux said: assuming $10/hr for labor and 100% success rate (no contams or setbacks) a single quart jar of grain spawn (the "unit" in this particular question) has a gross cost (for me) of roughly $43 from start (soaking) to finish (fruiting). 

jesus christ, deb - 43 dollars? is that based on an average volume of <10, 10-100 or >100 jars? 43 bucks would be irretrievable from sales i presume.

i spend untold hours lovin my babies, and thank god i don't charge myself labour costs :rotfl:


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buh

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: shirley knott]
    #3678332 -

the cost is roughly extrapolated over several runs of 7 jars each (what my PC holds).

$43 would easily be retrieved via sales. that is kind of the whole point in trying to determine the gross cost... to determine a sale price. how easy it is to recoup the loss is greatly dependent on the species being cultivated, the methods used, and the local market conditions.

my $43 figure is specific to my methods for cubies (meaning losses are not recouped in a financial sense). i'm certain the figure is wildly different for my shiitake endeavors but i don't do enough runs over a short enough period of time for me to have a feasible figure for that at this time.

I'm, still working out the data but it looks like my "running costs" (meaning reusing whatever i can) are more like $10-$20 per quart jar.

i basically spend my free time cultivating but ascertaining a labor cost is essential when dealing with marketing edibles. i like to delineate what "I" make and what "my business" makes. my labor is a cost to my business. obviously, the figures start looking better and better when you look only at "running costs" and quit figuring in labor costs.

i like to look at things like this in a "worst-case" POV and set my price point from there. assuming some overcalculation i can either give my customer a price break or increase my profit margins.

sorry if i'm blurring the lines by talking about gourmet production while referring to my non-gourmet dataset. it is just that my non-gourmet dataset is reams larger than my gourmet production data. makes sense, i've only been producing gourmet for a little over a year but have been cultivating other fungi for several years.

like i said, more data in the future!!


--------------------
To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: debianlinux]
    #3678358 -

non-gourmet database lol


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buh

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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