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OfflineAnnoA
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Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation
    #3634156 - 01/16/05 05:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3634300 - 01/16/05 08:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

it says it only applies to wood and sawdust - isn't it just a rehash of his peroxide manual?

i'd love a read of his breakthrough ideas, but i'm not paying for a 19 page manual when the same knowledge is bound to be here at the shroomery for free.


--------------------
buh


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: shirley knott]
    #3634302 - 01/16/05 08:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shirley knott said:
i'd love a read of his breakthrough ideas, but i'm not paying for a 19 page manual when the same knowledge is bound to be here at the shroomery for free.




thats JUST the thought that came to my mind as i read anno's post.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: shirley knott]
    #3634440 - 01/16/05 10:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> isn't it just a rehash of his peroxide manual?

It is a different concept, without peroxide.

" Non-sterile cultivation is a non-peroxide approach for growing healthy fruiting cultures of gourmet wood-decomposing mushrooms"


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3634478 - 01/16/05 11:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have the book, and though it is brief, it's worth buying. There are many useful ideas in it.

As for the technique, I have played a little, with some success. Using non-sterile substrates allows you in theory to do away with pressure cookers, HEPA, and peroxide, but it is hardly foolproof. You must be sure to have very clean, very healthy, fast growing spawn, clean substrate materials of optimal nutrition and pH, and you must incubate the cultures at ideal temperatures. Also, it requires a higher spawning rate.

I'm not yet sure if the trade off is worth it. It requires a lot of experimentation, but perhaps once all the parameters for a particular strain/species are worked out, it could work well.

- A


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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3640816 - 01/17/05 09:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i used to have to inoculate 36 of these trays (6 at a time) in a small indoor room. it was a pain in the ass, so i moved the process outdoors. as you can see in the picture, the inoculation is done in open air. wind blows all kinds of contams into the trays.



the trays are incubated in a semi clean room, before being moved into a clean grow room.



the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.

i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.


--------------------


Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3642329 - 01/18/05 08:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

I bought the manual .
Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642345 - 01/18/05 08:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

I bought the manual .
Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.




isnt that just common wisdom anyway, talking working fast,
clean and provind good conditions shall get one contam free?

ive been doing all my work without glovebox / hepa
(since i blew my box a year back, a week after i fixed it and never repaired)
and so far my overall contam rate since i started
cultivating is below 10 jars.
peace ohm :mushroom2:

*edit*
the 10 leaves out the 6 jars that contammed due to my cat
lying around in the warm incubator, enjoying the funny feeling
of polyfill and ripping it out of the jars AAAAARGH !!!


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


Edited by ohmatic (01/18/05 08:22 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: ohmatic]
    #3642355 - 01/18/05 08:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>isnt that just common wisdom anyway, talking working fast, clean

Read the above again, there is no talking about fast or (overly)clean


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642368 - 01/18/05 08:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the trays are incubated in a semi clean room, before being moved into a clean grow room.




lets take spawn run, big ammount of spawn to compost trays,
usually colonistion to 100% should be finished in a week.
pasteurized substrate shouldnt actually be affected during this time
and he isnt really having them out in the dirty anyway.

he spawn them in open air, allright, but incubation and fruiting
takes place in more or less clean surroundings and given that
spawning such a tray prolly takes couple minutes - that isnt such
a considerably long time.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


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Invisiblearmedia
Dikaryon

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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3642564 - 01/18/05 10:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>the mushrooms grow; the contamination doesn't (usually). the key is to providing an
>environment that is most favorable to the mushroom, but not favorable its competitors.
>i firmly believe that a sterile substrate is not the best substrate for growth. mushrooms do
>better with the help of friendly bacteria and other helpful fungi. some provide protection
>and some provide nutrition for the growing mycelium.

> I bought the manual .
> Your statement pretty much sums up the info given in his manual.

There is a difference between this and what this book is suggesting, thought it may be irrelevant.

Pasteurized or composted substances have had "bad" competitors killed, while "good" ones remain.

NSC is about using substrates as is, even allowing potentially "bad" competitors to grow. If the other conditions for good colonization are met (as described in the book) then the mushroom will "win", even when bad contaminant fungi & bacteria are present. The fact the substrate is non-sterile is what allows this to happen, apparently. Either the mushroom is stimulated to grow better/faster in the presence of the other organisms, the other organisms are sufficiently inhibited, or both.

I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag, and though there were spots of mold here and there, the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit. A larger scale attempt failed, but I have doubts about the purity of my spawn, so more experiments are warranted.

- A


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Offlinewideweb
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3642667 - 01/18/05 11:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag,
>and though there were spots of mold here and there,
>the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit.

What mushroom fruited on this substrate?


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: wideweb]
    #3643011 - 01/18/05 01:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>I tried it one time with pelleted straw, right out of the bag,
>and though there were spots of mold here and there,
>the mushroom did eventually fully colonize it and fruit.

> What mushroom fruited on this substrate?

Pleurotus ostreatus

- A


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #3644035 - 01/18/05 05:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I dont see the big deal with contamination anyways. Its only terrribly important in the making of spawn. If you have a good strain it normaly can kick any competetors ass. As Red said above substrate doesnt have to be sterile. Its all about being faverable to mushroom growth not any mold or other fungi growth. I have worked in grow rooms that used a fan with fresh air being blown in meaning 100 percent unclean room.


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Offlinerubra
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3650321 - 01/19/05 09:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm new to mushroom cultivation, but I once read an old mushroom book that suggested using aerobically composted horse manure. The horse manure is mixed with straw and turned and watered every few days. The manure is decomposed by oxygen-breathing microorganisms, prossibly with the help of benificial fungi, though I'm not sure about that. In any case this method does not involve the mold and bacteria that infect sterile cultures.

just my 2 cents,
Peter


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3650956 - 01/20/05 12:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

people called bullshit on my outdoor karo tek and the notion that it might work if you mix up some karo with water and added a print to the mixture without sterlizing it. it would contam, it would indoors for sure but!!!
I have tried this a little bit outdoors with wood loving strains. You spray the mixture that hasnt germinated onto moist wood chips. After a few days i have noticed mycelium growing under the chips and sometimes blue mold. Here is the trick, i water it and it seems to was the mold away and it washed the karo away but the mycelium has a decent foot hold. The karo gives the spores that little extra kick to germinate and it searches for food (wood chips). It seems to be good to start ooutdoor beds without all the sterile shiznit


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


Teh=The

I need to proofread


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Offlinerubra
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: tahoe]
    #3657747 - 01/21/05 10:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Come to think of it, I don't get why we use sterile methods at all. When we take wood pellet feul and add nutrients, we might get more mushrooms out of each bale, but we also create an ideal environment for bacteria and mold by making the nutrients readily available.

Once organic matter has been composted, it is full of nutrients, but not in a form that invites "contaminants". I'm not sure of all the reasons behind it, but while peaches in your kitchen might get moldy, if you compost them, they decompose via microorganisms, and afterwards provide nutrients for plants and mushrooms but not for the mold and bacteria we hate.

Peter


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3657828 - 01/21/05 11:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Not quite. Unless you are doing fancy, two-phase composting, then when you throw that peach into your compost pile, its being digested by molds and bacteria, "good" and "bad". There is no difference between microorganisms and contaminants, except when you want to exclude one or another of them from your cultures.

You can go too far, as well. Fully composted substrates have a good deal of their nutrients removed from them, especially carbon, which is released into the air as CO2, and which fungi could utilize for growth. Compost for plants is very different from compost for mushrooms, since plants don't require carbon, and only need the NPK and micronutritents that were bound up in the material.

There is something, however, in Wayne's NSC tek to the idea that other organisms can partially pre-digest some of the substrate, only to be themselves digested by the mushroom. I don't think he argues anywhere that this is a good thing, only that it is not a bad thing, assuming other factors are ideal. Molds and bacteria present in the substrate will be overcome, if the mushroom is the strongest/most abundant organism present.

- A


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Offlinerubra
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: armedia]
    #3659361 - 01/21/05 06:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Except when you are quick composting something, it is a different set of bacteria and fungi that are breaking the material down. The contaminants we find in mushroom cultures are not the heat loving ones that raise the temperature of a compost pile to 160 degrees.

[QUOTE]Compost for plants is very different from compost for mushrooms, since plants don't require carbon, and only need the NPK and micronutritents that were bound up in the material.[/QUOTE]

The compost needs are not really that different. While mushrooms need more nutrients to grow than plants do, this does not mean they need a different sort of substrate. Compost is made up of nitrogen-rich materials (such as horse manure) and carbon rich materials (such as straw). The result: A substrate containing all essential nutrients, inlcuding plenty of carbon. The reason fresh compost must be used is partly because it loses its nutritional value over time, and partly because other fungi eventually make use of the left-over carbon.

Peter


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: Non-Sterile Mushroom Cultivation [Re: rubra]
    #3659992 - 01/21/05 08:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Rubra -

I agree that the two types of compost are essentially similar, but one difference still is that the carbon in mushroom compost is a nutritional requirement, while in plant composts it is only structural.

In your earlier post you said you don't get why we use sterile methods at all. There is a simple reason: if you inoculate a sterile medium with your organism in a clean environment, it has _no_ competition for nutrients, and does exceptionally well. There is nothing "wrong" with sterilization, provided you can maintain sterility, aside from cost and labor.

Other methods like pasteurization, peroxides, and NSC are simply ways to avoid the complications of sterile techniques, and may or may not create their own sets of complications themselves.

Myself, I use all of these methods, as the situation requires, and am glad for the options.

Best
A

Ps. Welcome to the community!


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